Author Topic: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF  (Read 13325 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2007, 12:40:51 AM »
Rape pregnancies are not more likely to result in death than normal ones.

However, in America 999 out of 1000 pregnancies are not due to rape!

newman

  • Guest
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2007, 12:52:28 AM »
Rape pregnancies are not more likely to result in death than normal ones.

However, in America 999 out of 1000 pregnancies are not due to rape!
You're doing an Erica and jumbling the points.

The rape question was one of phsycological harm. It won't apply to ALL victims but will apply to some. Secondly while only 1 in 1000 pregnancies may result in death or injury, a consenting person is free to take that small risk as most of the human race does. But why should a (NON-consenting) rape victim be forced to take even that risk. It wasn't her choice to get impregnated.

Re planned pregnancies:

The question was what % physical risk to the individual mother (25%, 50%, 75% etc) due to medical complication constitutes grounds for abortion? People are guessing at 50+% risk of death but no firm answers so far.

Offline The Shadow

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2007, 12:54:50 AM »
Newman:  Isn't he annoying!

Online Chaim Ben Pesach

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5744
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2007, 01:31:29 AM »
                                                                                                                            בס''ד

1. Earlier in this thread, there was a post disparaging CF's "profound Mexican intellect". I thought that post was way out of line. CF is far more educated, far more intelligent and far more moral than 99% of the white Anglos that I know. He writes far better than the vast majority of white Anglo posters on the internet. In fact, he is better informed and his writing skills are superior to most Jewish posters on the internet. So to attack his intellect is absurd. If anything, CF is living proof that JTF is right when we assert that Mexicans, blacks or any group could be well-educated and intelligent if only they had the discipline to learn. CF is a perfect example of how our problem with certain groups is cultural and not genetic. CF is extremely intelligent.

Hail Columbia, who is also of Hispanic descent, is also extremely intelligent, well-educated and righteous. Most white Anglos WISH they had the education, knowledge, writing skills and morals of CF and Hail Columbia.

2. If Jews had allowed women to abort their babies when raped, most European-looking Jews would not be around today. Many Jews have light skin color and other northern European features because Jewish women were frequently raped during the crusades, inquisitions and pogroms of Europe. The Rabbis ruled that we are not permitted to blame the innocent baby for the evil actions of the rapist. And the Rabbis also ruled that the baby is Jewish because the mother is Jewish.

I always become suspicious when men become the most fervert supporters of a woman's "right to choose (to murder her baby)." Could it be that many of these men just want to justify abortion so that if they fornicate, they will be able to "dispose" of the inconvenient consequences?

3. If we cannot impose the death penalty on violent and brutal rapists because someone innocent may be convicted, then we cannot impose the death penalty on murderers either. Because it is theoretically possible that an innocent person can be convicted of murder. The standard of proof for murder and rape is the same: proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The arguments made here against the death penalty are precisely those made by leftists.

The Torah - which is G-d's law - does impose the death penalty for murdering an innocent person, and for brutal and violent rape.

As far as people being falsely accused, I am being accused right now on two new Peace Now Hebrew videos of being a serial rapist. And on other Peace Now videos, I am being called a mass murderer. But that does not change the fact that a REAL murderer and a REAL violent and brutal rapist deserves to be put to death.

The vast majority of convicted murderers and convicted rapists are black males. Since I had the "honor" of spending five and a half years in prison with thousands of them, I can tell that I doubt that any of the ones that I met and lived with are innocent despite their swearing in court that they had been "framed" by a "racist system".

4. I am glad this thread was started. JTF is not a cult and we do have differences of opinion in our movement. JTF is a great experiment: can people from so many different backgrounds with so many different views work together to make this a better world? I think we can and I think as JTF grows, thank G-d, we are proving it every day.


Offline The Shadow

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2007, 02:04:57 AM »
Dear Chairman:

I dont agree with you, abortion is not murder.  I dont agree with Torah law.   And if you ever came to power I would hope you wouldn;t outlaw abortion.   I agree with you on oil, arabs, blacks  and immigration.  And I would vote for you in hearbeat if you ran for any kind of office.  I believe it would be good for the Jewish people.  We have big differences on fundamental issues but I'm with you anyway.

Sincerely,

The Shadow

Offline Trumpeldor

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2007, 02:06:21 AM »
Great post, Chaim. Very logical.

newman

  • Guest
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2007, 02:18:11 AM »
You cannot legislate for/against personal morality.

While a Jew should be observant, It's not my place or the state's place to compell him to be so.

In that vane.............
While perhaps women should not abort, I refuse to ever tell one what she can do with her body. I cannot get pregnant by any means so I've no right to. In the case of a rape victim who has ALREADY had control of her body taken from her once, I would never advocate the state doing it to her a second time.

I hear Rabbis claim that an abortion IS allowed if the mother's life is in danger. Well and good. But nobody can define what that entails or who makes that determination. A doctor? 3 doctors? A tribunal? A rabbi? And what level of risk? 100%? 50%? or 10%? What about a 50% chance of suicide in the case of a rape victim?

Until ALL the above questions (and others) have a definite answer, we cannot outlaw abortion.

Offline yeshuadisciple

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
  • My crazy parrot
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2007, 02:34:35 AM »
If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now.  8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis. 
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 12:9-10

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.  "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.  "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.  "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Daniel 9:24-27




My lovely wife

newman

  • Guest
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2007, 02:36:40 AM »
If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now.  8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis. 
True, but gentile America is not in the same position.

Offline The Shadow

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2007, 02:53:12 AM »
I really do have a problem with Chaim calling abortion murder.  Just because Chaim says it, doesn't make it so.   Plenty of people think otherwise.  Thats one of the fears I have of people who say those things reaching positions of power.  I don't want Chaim dictating  his abortion morals to me and shoving it down my throat 

Offline Trumpeldor

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2007, 03:12:20 AM »
I really do have a problem with Chaim calling abortion murder.  Just because Chaim says it, doesn't make it so.   Plenty of people think otherwise.  Thats one of the fears I have of people who say those things reaching positions of power.  I don't want Chaim dictating  his abortion morals to me and shoving it down my throat 

Are you planning on having an abortion any time soon?

Offline JTFFan

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3964
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2007, 05:54:16 AM »
Great Post, Chaim! O0
You are right we need to stop this supposed nazi genetic assumption for intelligence, education etc. Almost all or at least most Scientific studies have shown that this is a cultural issue and not genetic. If we believe in this genetic assumption we are slowly falling into the footsteps of nazis and deeming people "untermensch" and might as well be a nazi hitlerian eugenicist. Anyways, great post as usual Chaim.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12584
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2007, 06:50:23 AM »
Chaim

About abortions, I hear you...you're arguement is very logical. I don't completely agree because to me, it's not black and white in today's time..and unfortunately, we are living in evil times influenced by evil-doers..so maybe it's just my head...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2007, 11:19:02 AM »
Chaim and Newman make excellent points, as does Dr. Dan. 

Now I would like to share with you all a personal experience I had when I went to the hospital almost two years ago for a very nasty stomach bug.  I had thrown up several times that morning and got sick yet again in the waiting room of the ER.  By this time, I was cold, my body ached, and I was still nauseous. 

However, the nurse practitioner first wanted to get a blood sample from me.  He poked and poked to no avail, as my veins were basically closed.  And there was no other type of body fluid to be had either.  I begged him for the IV drip with anti-nausea medication but he refused for fear that I might be pregnant.  When I tried telling him there was no way I could be pregnant, he said he didn't need to know the details of my personal life.  How's that for an affirmative action experience? 

Now what I want to know is, what if I had died before getting treatment.  The hospital would have had a dead woman, and one (hypothetically) dead unborn baby.  That doesn't sound pro-life to me at all.

Anyway, the nurse practitioner tried poking me for blood again half an hour later and still no luck.  So he had his nurse supervisor try, and she finally had to settle for getting a small amount of blood from a vein in my left hand.  Even that was difficult, as she had to squeeze my hand to get the blood. 

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2007, 11:42:51 AM »
Quote
What race were those creatures in the hospital?

What do you think?

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8987
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2007, 12:31:25 PM »
If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now.  8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis. 
Chaim's position on abortion is the correct one from a moral and religious point of view. It may also be the right one for a country such as Israel and its Jewish people who are a people with strong family values. Here in America today this is not the case. Family structures are not what they were 50 years ago. How many  unwanted children do we want the state to foot the bill for. Sadly some of the unwanted children live in the system and become very maladjusted because of abuse and neglect. I believe its far worse to have a child live a life of neglect and abuse because its unwanted. I would really like to see laws put in place that would mandate that abortions would only be legal in the very early stages of a pregnancy. Late term abortion is an evil practice and is nothing less than murder. I also feel that people that come in time and time again for this procedure are using this as a form of contraception and should not have this option open to them endless times. The law needs to be modified here in America however to make abortion totally illegal would be a great disservice to society as we have it today.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline EagleEye

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
Re: I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF
« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2007, 10:46:03 AM »
My viewpoint is, and this may be extreme, is that if anyone executes an innocent person, every single person complicit in the mistake should also be executed.