Author Topic: Ron Paul  (Read 15661 times)

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Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2007, 01:57:14 AM »
Not all Israeli lobbyists are loyal to Israel in it's original form. That's like the United Kingdom saying they'll give us money if we give up the southwest chunk of America to Mexico so that they can retain peaceful terms with the rest of south america.

Heck, on youtube, people claim Hilary Clinton is a Zionist. You guys know she's not a Zionist. AIPAC composes of many people that are supposedly in support of Israel from different political parties. That really depends what you consider a Zionist. Hillary Clinton supports the two state solution, same with Giuliani and Bush. They pledge money to Israel but does that make them loyal Zionists? Absolutely not. These are the people that harm Israel.

I'm lost with your first statement about Israeli lobbyists. Please define that term. Who are they? Who is part of that lobby and who isn't?

Second, there is an argument that can be made that people who favor a two-state solution are Zionists. Alan Dershowitz and Hillary Clinton have approximately the same view of the conflict. Does that mean Dershowitz is not a Zionist? Of course not. They are both left-wing Zionists.

The term 'Zionist' can be reduced to anyone who supports the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 01:58:52 AM by Trumpeldor »

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2007, 01:59:47 AM »
Not all Israeli lobbyists are loyal to Israel in it's original form. That's like the United Kingdom saying they'll give us money if we give up the southwest chunk of America to Mexico so that they can retain peaceful terms with the rest of south america.

Heck, on youtube, people claim Hilary Clinton is a Zionist. You guys know she's not a Zionist. AIPAC composes of many people that are supposedly in support of Israel from different political parties. That really depends what you consider a Zionist. Hillary Clinton supports the two state solution, same with Giuliani and Bush. They pledge money to Israel but does that make them loyal Zionists? Absolutely not. These are the people that harm Israel.

I'm lost with your first statement about Israeli lobbyists. Please define that term. Who are they? Who is part of that lobby and who isn't?

Second, there is an argument that can be made that people who favor a two-state solution are Zionists. Alan Dershowitz and Hillary Clinton have approximately the same view of the conflict. Does that mean Dershowitz is not a Zionist? Of course not. They are both left-wing Zionists.

The term 'Zionist' can be reduced to anyone who supports the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.

How can you call yourself a Zionist yet support a Palestinian state? That's like me saying lets create a Mexican state in the Southwest but yet still waving an American flag. You can't.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2007, 02:00:05 AM »


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

Yeah it's wikipedia but you can look at the citations if you like. This explains the definition.

Then what would you categorize liberal globalists as?

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2007, 02:03:21 AM »
How can you call yourself a Zionist yet support a PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi state? That's like me saying lets create a Mexican state in the Southwest but yet still waving an American flag. You can't.

I don't favor that meaning but it is certainly valid. A Zionist is anyone who supports Zionism. Zionism is the Jewish nationalist movement to establish a homeland in Eretz Yisrael.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2007, 02:23:29 AM »
The US and Israel had an agreement to share intelligence.  Reagan's defense secretary despised Israel so he was intentionally hiding important information.  The information that Pollard passed along was not used against US interests.  In fact, the government secretly is glad that Israel received the information. 

Pollard is kept in jail for other reasons.

Offline mord

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2007, 11:11:51 AM »
Here we have Paul comparing Israel to Hezzballah      http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/muslims-discover-ron-paul/   





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Ron Paul stood up in Congress in 2006 and opposed a resolution that sided with Israel in the Lebanon-Israel conflict. He stated the following.

Ron Paul: “Mr. Speaker, I follow a policy in foreign affairs called non-interventionism. I do not believe we are making the United States more secure when we involve ourselves in conflicts overseas. The Constitution really doesn’t authorize us to be the policemen of the world, much less to favor one side over another in foreign conflicts.  It is very clear, reading this resolution objectively, that all the terrorists are on one side and all the victims and the innocents are on the other side. I find this unfair, particularly considering the significantly higher number of civilian casualties among Lebanese civilians. I would rather advocate neutrality rather than picking sides, which is what this resolution does
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:15:12 AM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline White Israelite

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2007, 01:31:52 PM »
Here we have Paul comparing Israel to Hezzballah      http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/muslims-discover-ron-paul/   





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Quote
Ron Paul stood up in Congress in 2006 and opposed a resolution that sided with Israel in the Lebanon-Israel conflict. He stated the following.

Ron Paul: “Mr. Speaker, I follow a policy in foreign affairs called non-interventionism. I do not believe we are making the United States more secure when we involve ourselves in conflicts overseas. The Constitution really doesn’t authorize us to be the policemen of the world, much less to favor one side over another in foreign conflicts.  It is very clear, reading this resolution objectively, that all the terrorists are on one side and all the victims and the innocents are on the other side. I find this unfair, particularly considering the significantly higher number of civilian casualties among Lebanese civilians. I would rather advocate neutrality rather than picking sides, which is what this resolution does


The way I read it, it sounds like he was debating over calling one side bad and one side good, that he doesn't favor either side. It doesn't sound like he's comparing Israel to hezballah at all.

Offline mord

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2007, 01:42:37 PM »
Here we have Paul comparing Israel to Hezzballah      http://towelianism.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/muslims-discover-ron-paul/   





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Quote
Ron Paul stood up in Congress in 2006 and opposed a resolution that sided with Israel in the Lebanon-Israel conflict. He stated the following.

Ron Paul: “Mr. Speaker, I follow a policy in foreign affairs called non-interventionism. I do not believe we are making the United States more secure when we involve ourselves in conflicts overseas. The Constitution really doesn’t authorize us to be the policemen of the world, much less to favor one side over another in foreign conflicts.  It is very clear, reading this resolution objectively, that all the terrorists are on one side and all the victims and the innocents are on the other side. I find this unfair, particularly considering the significantly higher number of civilian casualties among Lebanese civilians. I would rather advocate neutrality rather than picking sides, which is what this resolution does


The way I read it, it sounds like he was debating over calling one side bad and one side good, that he doesn't favor either side. It doesn't sound like he's comparing Israel to hezballah at all.
He seems to be saying either neither side are terrorists or  both sides  are terrorists.Forget the part the Hezzballah is a miltia not the army of lebanon,Israel allows red cross visits to arab prisoners ,Israel does'nt even know if it' 2 soldiers are alive
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 01:48:30 PM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline mord

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2007, 02:53:07 PM »
Thats not what i mean  what i'm saying is that during the debate in congress he went out of his way to compare the IDF  to hezzballah     











Quote
reading this resolution objectively, that all the terrorists are on one side and all the victims and the innocents are on the other side. I find this unfair, particularly considering the significantly higher number of civilian casualties among Lebanese civilians


http://mariahussain.wordpress.com/
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:57:27 PM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2007, 08:48:29 PM »
Rubystars:  "...I really never meant anything harmful but reading back over my posts, I may have come on a bit too strong..."

Rubystars,
We here are all meek and mild.
Sweet and agreeable dispositions abound.
We give love, and we....receive love!
SO...WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?
                       :'(

Offline דוד בן זאב אריה

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2007, 09:09:05 PM »
"It's a non-intervention policy like yours that allowed Hitler to come to power" John McCain on Ron Paul's Policy at the CNN Youtube debate
David Ben Ze'ev Aryeh


Offline White Israelite

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2007, 09:13:13 PM »
"It's a non-intervention policy like yours that allowed Hitler to come to power" John McCain on Ron Paul's Policy at the CNN Youtube debate

When Hitler came to power, there was no state of Israel, no IDF, no Israeli flag. It was a artificial state at the time created by the British known as the British mandate of Pa1estine. The Jews were only able to rely on themselves at this point and had no weapons to fight back.

Ron Paul simply stated that Israel has the capability to take out Iran and that they have nukes. Israel does not need the US to fight it's battles for her.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2007, 03:16:24 AM »
Rubystars,

     According to most polls, at least 75% of Americans supported the war at the time.  However, they probably wouldn't have supported how it was managed. 

    To claim that AIPAC caused 75% of Americans to support the war is a complete distortion and lie. 

   

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2007, 03:55:39 AM »
"It's a non-intervention policy like yours that allowed Hitler to come to power" John McCain on Ron Paul's Policy at the CNN Youtube debate

When Hitler came to power, there was no state of Israel, no IDF, no Israeli flag. It was a artificial state at the time created by the British known as the British mandate of Pa1estine. The Jews were only able to rely on themselves at this point and had no weapons to fight back.

Ron Paul simply stated that Israel has the capability to take out Iran and that they have nukes. Israel does not need the US to fight it's battles for her.


Are you saying that nothing should have been done while allies were under invasion?

Israel has never asked the US to fight a battle for it.  These are accusations that Israel-haters try to make; don't fall for it.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2007, 10:35:48 AM »
Rubystars, you want us to believe you that you are a legitimate contributor to the forum, but yet ALL you have posted on, so far, is how you support Ron Paul and how the Israeli government's interests are inimical to those of the United States.

Notice a pattern?

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2007, 11:18:40 AM »
C.F. ..."you want us to believe you that you are a legitimate contributor to the forum, but yet ALL you have posted on, so far, is how you support Ron Paul and how the Israeli government's interests are inimical to those of the United States..."

As to Rubystar's support of Ron Paul...

Rubystar both supports one of the Republican Party's candidates for their Presidential nomination, and by this choice also supports one ten-term Congressional Member from Texas who each year returns a portion of their Congressional salary back to the United States Federal Government.

Would C.F. rather know that Rubystar supports one of the Democrat Party's candidates and not one from the Republicans?

If Congressman Paul is the worst of all possible choices, then how can the Republican Party consider him as a member and candidate?

Would not this, in and of itself, denote the acceptance and embracing of the totally unacceptable by the Republican National Committee?

Is C.F. inferring that the "interests" of the U.S.A. and the "interests" of The State of Israel and 'one and the same' and do not diverge at some point? 

If so...please do explain how Washington's plan for an Israel returned to its pre-1967 "Auschwitz borders" with Jerusalem, Gaza, Judaea, and Samaria recognized as a new Muslim Terror State, combined with Washington's determination to see the Golan Heights given back over to a Ba'athist Dictatorship so that it may be used once again to shell Jewish Land and cut off the source of Israel's water supply, are consistent with Jewish National aspirations.

Apparently my education and understanding are misinformed, so I eagerly await C.F.'s wisdom.

Perhaps C.F. infers that MassuhDGoodName's contributions to this forum are also 'less than legitimate'?

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2007, 12:11:10 PM »
Rubystar,

Your concern with the "influence" of AIPAC is based on a media barrage of propaganda which is both myopic and focused only on one fully legal lobbying group, to the total exclusion of all others.

The State of Israel's "peace process" in which it is considering giving land to terrorists, is the result of the U.S.A.'s policy FORCING Israel to do it.

The canard is often spoken and printed, that "the tail [Israel] is wagging the dog [U.S.A.]", but it is a complete lie.

Forty years ago, all of Israel's Arab enemies were funded and militarily supplied by the Communist Soviet Union; Israel being helped by the U.S.A., Western Europe to some degree, and the Union of South Africa.

Today, ALL of Israel's sworn enemies are funded and militarily supplied by the U.S.A. ... Are you thus concluding that AIPAC is working to control American foreign policy?

More Muslims have been brought into the United States under George Bush, than at any time in history.

During the 1990's the Republican leaders planned to "end Republican reliance on the Jewish Vote", and have been importing literally millions of Christian-hating, Jew-hating terrorists from the 6th Century into our American heartland.

To you this indicates that "no President and no Congress and no Senate can say 'NO' to "the Israeli Lobby"?

Arab Muslims just bought 10% of CITIBANK, the largest Bank in the United States.

More undue Jewish influence?

The largest group of influence in Washington is the Saudi presence. 

Do just a little research, and you will find that virtually every Government official from Presidents to Legislators have been totally and completely "compromised" with Saudi money.

Guess who funds the largest part of all "Presidential Library" funds?

Guess who assures all State Department officials a retirement of luxury and wealth in exchange for enacting Saudi Foreign Policy rather than U.S. foreign policy?

Hint:  It's not AIPAC, not Israel, not the Jews.

Stop swallowing the "anti-Zionist" propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Incidentally, there are numerous Americans both in and out of government with dual-citizenship.

It is completely legal and authorized by Federal Law with certain friendly nations.

In theory, I can agree with you that Chertoff should be only an "American citizen", but in practice the ownership of a dual citizenship is not by definition an indication of disloyalty or behavior which is suspect.

Legislation to end this practice of legal dual citizenship can be enacted.

Chertoff would turn my stomach regardless of his citizenship.

Finally, I observe that the Saudi Lobby and its Muslim influence over our government and media have been an unqualified success...your acceptance of untruths and partial truths as your personal world view are proof of it.

Research who it is that owns controlling influence over the American media, banks, and government, and you will find out that is not the Jews or Israel, but the Muslim Terrorists who have hoodwinked you.   

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2007, 03:00:45 PM »
Ruby, it is difficult for me to believe in your sincerity when you keep talking about such things as AIPAC's influence and how what the Israeli government wants is bad for the United States. Also, you say all Jews should go to Israel. Now, I'm not a fortuneteller by any means, but I do know coded language pretty well, and I have yet to encounter one who ignorantly uses it.

And you did not address my question--for being a legitimate contributor, you have not posted anything except stuff in defense of Ron Paul.


Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2007, 03:30:12 PM »
Ruby, it is difficult for me to believe in your sincerity when you keep talking about such things as AIPAC's influence and how what the Israeli government wants is bad for the United States. Also, you say all Jews should go to Israel. Now, I'm not a fortuneteller by any means, but I do know coded language pretty well, and I have yet to encounter one who ignorantly uses it.

And you did not address my question--for being a legitimate contributor, you have not posted anything except stuff in defense of Ron Paul.
All Jews should go to Israel...

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2007, 05:47:04 PM »
I did not say they shouldn't.

I said I get suspicious when Gentiles who have views like Ruby's say they should all go to Israel.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 05:52:36 PM »
I did not say they shouldn't.

I said I get suspicious when Gentiles who have views like Ruby's say they should all go to Israel.


Why is it ok for a Jew to say we should all go to Israel but not for a gentile?

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 06:54:29 PM »
I did not say they shouldn't.

I said I get suspicious when Gentiles who have views like Ruby's say they should all go to Israel.


Why is it ok for a Jew to say we should all go to Israel but not for a gentile?

Becuase sometimes what matters is the intent. When a Jew (like Chaim) says so, he is stating his Halahic opinion, and wants to do it in to building up of the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, but when Many (not all) Gentiles say the same thing (that Jews should leave their countries- expecially before the state was established)- they were saying (and implying) that they don't want Jews in their countries and cant wait to get ride of them.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
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Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 06:58:01 PM »
I did not say they shouldn't.

I said I get suspicious when Gentiles who have views like Ruby's say they should all go to Israel.


Why is it ok for a Jew to say we should all go to Israel but not for a gentile?

Becuase sometimes what matters is the intent. When a Jew (like Chaim) says so, he is stating his Halahic opinion, and wants to do it in to building up of the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, but when Many (not all) Gentiles say the same thing (that Jews should leave their countries- expecially before the state was established)- they were saying (and implying) that they don't want Jews in their countries and cant wait to get ride of them.
But, while that makes said Gentiles idiots - it's good for the Jews.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
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Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 07:02:46 PM »
Cohen:  "...Why is it ok for a Jew to say we should all go to Israel but not for a gentile?..."

Question:

What is the definition of a Zionist?

Answer:

One Jew, who extorts money from a second Jew, in order to send a third Jew to Israel.

As regards Senator McCain's pointed response to Congressman Paul, saying that it was a "non-interventionist" policy which once enabled Hitler to rise to power and launch a World War, this point is well taken.

Historically speaking, the greater portion of the American citizenry wanted to stay out of "Europe's Wars" both in WWI as well as in WWII.

A strong case can also be made for the historical fact that many, but not all, who supported the "interventionist" line prior to both wars, did so out of anticipation for the profits to be earned in a war time economy.

It stands as common sense, not to mention fiscal sense, that a nation can not long sustain a worldwide "empire" which is financed with money which is borrowed from foreign nations, many of whom are itself no friends of ours.

It also stands to reason as common sense, that once any nation is planted firmly across the globe as is the U.S. today, some among its leadership inevitably will "cross the line" between 'maintaining peace and stability' vs outright 'direct intervention in the affairs of others'.

Clearly, the U.S. leadership today is unable to distinguish one from the other and is caught on the horns of a dilemma.

Freedom and liberty can not be maintained at home whilst simultaneously using force abroad intervening in the affairs of other sovereign states which in themself do not and never have posed a threat to our own national security.

The question which I myself am unable to answer satisfactorily is "Where on the planet, and at which point, must the U.S. draw a line between 'protecting freedom and promoting self-rule by other nations' vs 'becoming so entangled with states who despise freedom and actively work against U.S. interests, that we no longer have any friends or allies?

On the Republican side, Congressman Paul is the only candidate offering any alternative to the 'status quo' of "business as usual once the elections are over".

The foreign as well as domestic policies of the U.S.A. in 2007 mirror all too closely the policies enacted by our one-time sworn enemy the U.S.S.R.

After the 1967 Israeli Victory over her Arab enemy states, the Communist Party of the USSR funded all of Israel's enemies, trained all of Israel's enemies in terrorism and warfare, and supplied all of Israel's enemies with advanced military weaponry and technology, all the while demanding that Israel retreat to the indefensible 1948 borders from which she had been attacked daily by her enemies.

During that period of time, from 1967 up until the fall of the Soviet Union, America stood by Israel, supported her financially, diplomatically, and militarily, and supported her claims to the Land of Israel on moral grounds, historical grounds, and on grounds of national defensive needs.

Statement after statement was issued by Washington which clearly refuted the claims of the phony PLO terror groups and refuted the need for there to be another state carved out of the former British Mandated Middle East.

Beginning with President Carter, and now gaining full momentum from the Bush "conservatives", U.S. policy towards Israel is identical to that of its former Soviet enemy.

Is "business as usual" what the Jewish State needs to survive today, or perhaps is a more "non-interventionist" policy one that would more enable Israel's physical survival?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 07:44:37 PM »
when Many (not all) Gentiles say the same thing (that Jews should leave their countries- expecially before the state was established)- they were saying (and implying) that they don't want Jews in their countries and cant wait to get ride of them.
Exactly, Tzvi.

I am not trusting Ruby's motivations for saying this.