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newman

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The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« on: January 29, 2008, 08:23:10 PM »
The Myth:

Muslims often claim that their religion fostered a rich heritage of scientific discovery, “paving the way” for modern advances in technology and medicine.  On this topic, they usually refer to the period between the 7th and 13th centuries, when Europe was experiencing its “Dark Ages” and the Muslim world was conquering new populations and culture.

The Truth:

Although there is no arguing that the Muslim world was more advanced during this period than the “Christian” world, the reasons for this have absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion (other than its mandate for military expansion).  In fact, the religion actively discourages knowledge outside of itself, which is why the greatest Muslim scholars throughout history tend to be students of religion rather than science.

First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews.  To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge.  (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by the Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims.  The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam, but it was, in fact, created by the Hindus and merely introduced to the West by Muslims - along with the products of other cultures that were found to be useful to their new rulers.

In fact, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude).  The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement.  It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 600 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.

Third, even the great Muslim scientists and icons were often considered heretics in their time, sometimes for good reason.  One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Iranian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi.  His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment.  But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.

Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic.  There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir, but not much else that survives in modern technology that is of any practical significance.  Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.

As an example of this, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important source for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East.  While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America.  It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).

In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement.  Scientific, medical and technological accomplishments are not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a [censored] contest with the Christian world.  Today’s Islamic innovators are known merely for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.

To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator.  The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam.  Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether. 

 http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm#science

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 07:36:59 AM »
How Islamic inventors changed the world:

1 The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London. The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caffé and then English coffee.


2 The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.

3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

5 Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV.

6 Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and filtration. As well as discovering sulphuric and nitric acid, he invented the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other perfumes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry.

7 The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock.

8 Quilting is a method of sewing or tying two layers of cloth with a layer of insulating material in between. It is not clear whether it was invented in the Muslim world or whether it was imported there from India or China. But it certainly came to the West via the Crusaders. They saw it used by Saracen warriors, who wore straw-filled quilted canvas shirts instead of armour. As well as a form of protection, it proved an effective guard against the chafing of the Crusaders' metal armour and was an effective form of insulation - so much so that it became a cottage industry back home in colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

9 The pointed arch so characteristic of Europe's Gothic cathedrals was an invention borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was much stronger than the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans, thus allowing the building of bigger, higher, more complex and grander buildings. Other borrowings from Muslim genius included ribbed vaulting, rose windows and dome-building techniques. Europe's castles were also adapted to copy the Islamic world's - with arrow slits, battlements, a barbican and parapets. Square towers and keeps gave way to more easily defended round ones. Henry V's castle architect was a Muslim.

10 Many modern surgical instruments are of exactly the same design as those devised in the 10th century by a Muslim surgeon called al-Zahrawi. His scalpels, bone saws, forceps, fine scissors for eye surgery and many of the 200 instruments he devised are recognisable to a modern surgeon. It was he who discovered that catgut used for internal stitches dissolves away naturally (a discovery he made when his monkey ate his lute strings) and that it can be also used to make medicine capsules. In the 13th century, another Muslim medic named Ibn Nafis described the circulation of the blood, 300 years before William Harvey discovered it. Muslims doctors also invented anaesthetics of opium and alcohol mixes and developed hollow needles to suck cataracts from eyes in a technique still used today.

11 The windmill was invented in 634 for a Persian caliph and was used to grind corn and draw up water for irrigation. In the vast deserts of Arabia, when the seasonal streams ran dry, the only source of power was the wind which blew steadily from one direction for months. Mills had six or 12 sails covered in fabric or palm leaves. It was 500 years before the first windmill was seen in Europe.

12 The technique of inoculation was not invented by Jenner and Pasteur but was devised in the Muslim world and brought to Europe from Turkey by the wife of the English ambassador to Istanbul in 1724. Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it.

13 The fountain pen was invented for the Sultan of Egypt in 953 after he demanded a pen which would not stain his hands or clothes. It held ink in a reservoir and, as with modern pens, fed ink to the nib by a combination of gravity and capillary action.

14 The system of numbering in use all round the world is probably Indian in origin but the style of the numerals is Arabic and first appears in print in the work of the Muslim mathematicians al-Khwarizmi and al-Kindi around 825. Algebra was named after al-Khwarizmi's book, Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah, much of whose contents are still in use. The work of Muslim maths scholars was imported into Europe 300 years later by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. Algorithms and much of the theory of trigonometry came from the Muslim world. And Al-Kindi's discovery of frequency analysis rendered all the codes of the ancient world soluble and created the basis of modern cryptology.

15 Ali ibn Nafi, known by his nickname of Ziryab (Blackbird) came from Iraq to Cordoba in the 9th century and brought with him the concept of the three-course meal - soup, followed by fish or meat, then fruit and nuts. He also introduced crystal glasses (which had been invented after experiments with rock crystal by Abbas ibn Firnas - see No 4).

16 Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

17 The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

18 By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40,253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

19 Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

20 Medieval Europe had kitchen and herb gardens, but it was the Arabs who developed the idea of the garden as a place of beauty and meditation. The first royal pleasure gardens in Europe were opened in 11th-century Muslim Spain. Flowers which originated in Muslim gardens include the carnation and the tulip.

"1001 Inventions: Discover the Muslim Heritage in Our World" is a new exhibition which began a nationwide tour this week. It is currently at the Science Museum in Manchester. For more information, go to www.1001inventions.com.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

I think the independent is a bit more realistic and reliable source than other sites.

Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Boeregeneraal

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 08:29:58 AM »
Quote
3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

Persia, which was NOT muslim, and there is  also a difference between arabs and persians, just as there is a difference between arbas, turks and persians. The persians were certainly a great civilization (much taken from the greeks)...then came islam, and today, it is only oil keeping that hell hole afloat.

Quote
4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

Cordoba, which is in SPAIN. Spain ofcourse having been invaded by the muslims. Chances are, the person that allegedly did this, was of caucasian descent, and was converted to islam...or atleast, his previous family converted (forced) and he ofcourse followed. OR, the name given to him is totally made up, and he has a European name.

mmmmm...sounds a lot like the black claims that they had great civilizations...scientists...einsteins...etc

mmm...mayby it was the blacks whom made the Jews great... (devils advocate)

btw, what about the Collesuem, which was constructed centuries before islam...and even more so during islams "golden years"....mmm, i haven't seen any better muslim structes comparable to that of the Romans, a Millenium before them  ::)

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 08:37:28 AM »
Quote
Persia, which was NOT muslim, and there is  also a difference between arabs and persians, just as there is a difference between arbas, turks and persians. The persians were certainly a great civilization (much taken from the greeks)...then came islam, and today, it is only oil keeping that hell hole afloat.
What's your point ? Did the qoute you qouted say otherwise ?

Quote
Cordoba, which is in SPAIN. Spain ofcourse having been invaded by the muslims. Chances are, the person that allegedly did this, was of caucasian descent, and was converted to islam...or atleast, his previous family converted (forced) and he ofcourse followed. OR, the name given to him is totally made up, and he has a European name.

mmmmm...sounds a lot like the black claims that they had great civilizations...scientists...einsteins...etc

mmm...mayby it was the blacks whom made the Jews great... (devils advocate)

btw, what about the Collesuem, which was constructed centuries before islam...and even more so during islams "golden years"....mmm, i haven't seen any better muslim structes comparable to that of the Romans, a Millenium before them 

No, he wasn't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Ibn_Firnas

The Collesuem was a great building but you can't compare it to the Islamic buildings which were way better and advenced.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Boeregeneraal

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 10:57:39 AM »
Quote
The Collesuem was a great building but you can't compare it to the Islamic buildings which were way better and advenced
such as?

Offline Dexter

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 11:07:06 AM »
Quote
The Collesuem was a great building but you can't compare it to the Islamic buildings which were way better and advenced
such as?
The Taj Mahal.
The Shah Mosque in Isfahan, Iran.
The Sultan Ahmed Mosque in Istanbul
The Badshahi Masjid

BTW, the Collesuem was built of money that was made from the second Jewish temple treasures.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:21:25 AM by Dexter »
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 07:11:42 PM »
Quote
The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth

The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam’s apologists to save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove, as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese order, Israeli courage, or Italian style. ..............

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Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to serve their present-day intellectual agendas.................

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There have been times, that is, when some Moslem lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. These isolated episodes, neither long nor typical, are endlessly invoked by Islam’s Western apologists and admirers.

Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

Quote
As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India."

Quote
Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam’s "golden age" were of limited value.

Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at Stanford.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/islam_myth.htm



Boeregeneraal

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 08:07:05 PM »
Quote
The Collesuem was a great building but you can't compare it to the Islamic buildings which were way better and advenced
such as?
The Taj Mahal.
The Shah Mosque in Isfahan, Iran.
The Sultan Ahmed Mosque in Istanbul
The Badshahi Masjid

BTW, the Collesuem was built of money that was made from the second Jewish temple treasures.

Those are not good examples...mayby the Taj Mahal, but it still took the muslims 1600 years to build it!
Those mosques have very insignificant compared towards the colloseum, 1600 years earlier.

btw, the Shah Mosque (blue mosque), was built on the design of the Hagia Sophia - which was CHRISTIAN, up until the muslims converted it to a mosque 8;)

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 08:41:45 PM »


The only thing you could possibly credit iSSlam with doing was PUTTING TOGETHER other culture's ideas in the one place. Much like America's Carol Shellby. He took a British AC body, a Ford Engine & gearbox, a Banjo differential and other's bits and pieces to create the Shellby Cobra. He didn't actually invent ANYTHING..........just compiled. (s)hitler (Y'S) didn't invent nazism. He just took ideas and policies expressed by numerous german anti-semites and right-wingers over the previous 50 years and compiled them into one manifesto.

Dexter is so fond of quoting the author of the book (quoted below) which says exactly that about iSSlam.
Quote
As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India."


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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 07:43:20 AM »
I know that, infact I just read that part in The Arabs in History, what's your point ?

Let's me clear it: It's about MUSLIMS, not ARABS!
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 07:14:03 PM »
I know that, infact I just read that part in The Arabs in History, what's your point ?

Let's me clear it: It's about MUSLIMS, not ARABS!
Quote
[A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

Boeregeneraal

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »
DDex, did you know, the only reason why the ottomans were so successfull, was because they used EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN weaponry. And later, started employing european tactics  ;)

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 10:08:04 PM »
Poor Dexter is suffering from the fatal optimism of most Jews.

He WANTS to believe that somehow there is a moderate iSSlam that will live in peace with Jews so Jews won't always have to fight, win, then feel guilty about winning.

In order to believe there is a moderate iSSlam lurking somewhere, one must believe that there was a moderate iSSlam at some point in history. The myths of iSSlamic contributions to society and 'iSSlamic tollerance' provide fuel for this fatal optimism.


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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2008, 10:13:57 PM »
Poor Dexter is suffering from the fatal optimism of most Jews.

He WANTS to believe that somehow there is a moderate iSSlam that will live in peace with Jews so Jews won't always have to fight, win, then feel guilty about winning.

In order to believe there is a moderate iSSlam lurking somewhere, one must believe that there was a moderate iSSlam at some point in history. The myths of iSSlamic contributions to society and 'iSSlamic tollerance' provide fuel for this fatal optimism.


indeed dear Newman, sigh. But Dex is right, there is a 'moderate' isslam! That is, once ALL Jews, Christians and ALL non-muslims areEXTERMINATED! Then, then there is 'moderate' isslam. And yet, to keep themselfes busy, go around chopping of fellow muslim's heads, playtime...but hey, it's STILL moderate, since that IS Islam.

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 08:24:15 AM »
Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.

DDex, did you know, the only reason why the ottomans were so successfull, was because they used EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN weaponry. And later, started employing european tactics  ;)
I thing you are wrong. When the Ottomans started to use European weapons (17th century, I think) they were down already, especiely after the siege on Viena was broken at the 16th century.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 08:28:13 AM »
Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.


No. It's muSSlim-apologists who claim muSSlims invented anything other than novel ways of killing people.

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 09:11:48 AM »
Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.


No. It's muSSlim-apologists who claim muSSlims invented anything other than novel ways of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/03/09/1001_muslim_inventions_event_feature.shtml
Can you prove all this inventions weren't invented by Muslims ?
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Boeregeneraal

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 09:17:44 AM »
Quote
I thing you are wrong. When the Ottomans started to use European weapons (17th century, I think) they were down already, especiely after the siege on Viena was broken at the 16th century.

Would you like me to quote the JEWISH author of that book regarding the issue?

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 09:18:50 AM »
Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.


No. It's muSSlim-apologists who claim muSSlims invented anything other than novel ways of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/03/09/1001_muslim_inventions_event_feature.shtml
Can you prove all this inventions weren't invented by Muslims ?

Nobody can prove they were.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/islam_myth.htm


Offline Dexter

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 09:28:52 AM »
Quote
Would you like me to quote the JEWISH author of that book regarding the issue?
Sure.

Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.


No. It's muSSlim-apologists who claim muSSlims invented anything other than novel ways of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/03/09/1001_muslim_inventions_event_feature.shtml
Can you prove all this inventions weren't invented by Muslims ?

Nobody can prove they were.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/islam_myth.htm


The fact the inventiors lived in Islamic states, born Muslims, got affected of the Islamic culture doesn't prove you the inventions were "Muslim" and were made by Muslims ?

BTW, who is that new user in the general disscusion who always cries about him being banned last year?
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 09:31:00 AM »
Quote
Would you like me to quote the JEWISH author of that book regarding the issue?
Sure.

Quote
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

A. I already agreed the Islamic culture of the 13th century was developed of both the Arab culture and other cultures.
B. The Muslims developed things by themselvs, the one who say they all copied from others is a liar.


No. It's muSSlim-apologists who claim muSSlims invented anything other than novel ways of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/03/09/1001_muslim_inventions_event_feature.shtml
Can you prove all this inventions weren't invented by Muslims ?

Nobody can prove they were.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/islam_myth.htm


The fact the inventiors lived in Islamic states, born Muslims, got affected of the Islamic culture doesn't prove you the inventions were "Muslim" and were made by Muslims ?


Read the links on the previous pages.

Offline Dexter

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 09:36:23 AM »
It might be true they weren't real observant Muslims, yet they were Muslims culturaly. At least that's make tham Muslims. Would you say the Umiad dynesty wasn't Muslim because they weren't observant almost at all and accepted Islam only for what the eye can see, and the Black Stone in Mecca is actually part of the pre-Islamic pagan religion of Mecca's people and only because Muhammad agreed the stone will be worshiped in Islam Mecca's people accepted Islam ?
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 09:39:08 AM »
This is on the wiki page you posted as your 'proof':

Quote
The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.(January 2008)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.
:::D

Offline Dexter

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 09:40:57 AM »
So what ? It's disputed because they have an argument about how can inventions be Muslim, Chinese, British, Christian etc'. It doesn't mean the invention there weren't invented by Muslims.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Ambiorix

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Re: The last word on iSSlamic 'contributions' to civilisation.
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2008, 11:05:36 AM »
Dexter, you do like those muslims too much in my opinion.
Turkey must get out of NATO. NATO must get out of Kosovo-Serbia. Croats must get out of Crajina. All muslims must get out of Christian and Jewish land. Turks must get out of Cyprus. Turks must get out of "Istanbul". "Palestinians" must get out of Israel. Israel must become independent from USA.