Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 04:51:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 04:16:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 03:49:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 12:20:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 03:59:46 AM ---I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
--- End quote ---
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
--- End quote ---
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
--- End quote ---
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
--- End quote ---
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
--- End quote ---
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
White Israelite:
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 04:53:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 04:51:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 04:16:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 03:49:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 12:20:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 03:59:46 AM ---I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
--- End quote ---
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
--- End quote ---
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
--- End quote ---
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
--- End quote ---
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
--- End quote ---
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
--- End quote ---
What about self defense? "If someone comes to kill you, kill them first"
OdKahaneChai:
--- Quote from: Cohen on February 11, 2008, 04:58:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 04:53:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 04:51:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 04:16:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on February 11, 2008, 03:49:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 12:20:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 03:59:46 AM ---I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
--- End quote ---
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
--- End quote ---
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
--- End quote ---
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
--- End quote ---
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
--- End quote ---
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
--- End quote ---
What about self defense? "If someone comes to kill you, kill them first"
--- End quote ---
Then that isn't murder, is it?
Lubab:
For C.F.
The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:
Probably the earliest story regardomg euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”
He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”
The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:
"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."
Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.
The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.
“Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).
Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w
Masha:
Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
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