Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Question for Lubab.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:06:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:04:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:01:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 17, 2008, 06:44:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 06:39:59 PM ---No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
--- End quote ---
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
--- End quote ---
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
--- End quote ---
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
--- End quote ---
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
--- End quote ---
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: lubab on February 17, 2008, 07:07:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:01:01 PM ---Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB
--- End quote ---
You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.
You are way out of line!
--- End quote ---
I am not out of line.
You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of God clothed in a body.
If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:12:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:06:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:04:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:01:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 17, 2008, 06:44:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 06:39:59 PM ---No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
--- End quote ---
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
--- End quote ---
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
--- End quote ---
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
--- End quote ---
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
--- End quote ---
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
--- End quote ---
With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:16:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:12:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:06:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:04:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:01:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 17, 2008, 06:44:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 06:39:59 PM ---No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
--- End quote ---
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
--- End quote ---
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
--- End quote ---
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
--- End quote ---
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
--- End quote ---
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
--- End quote ---
With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it only records whatever is coming out of your speakers.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 17, 2008, 07:18:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 17, 2008, 07:04:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 07:01:45 PM ---
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
--- End quote ---
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
--- End quote ---
I don't think Lubab would think its ok to "pray" to the Rebbe. And I am hesitant to bring the Rebbe in these talks here out of respect for him. I do hold him in very high esteem.
Now, I have saved on my favorites a link to a Chabad article that explains how in the past Jews have visited the graves of Tzaddikim and when it's permissible as long as someone does not actually pray to the dead etc.
I know it's wrong to beseeching the dead don't get me wrong. But is it really beeseching the dead in the case of the ohels and when someone knows when it would be crossing the line and assur? Like the story of Caleb, who visited & prayed at the graves of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah in Hebron etc...naturally he didn't pray to them, he prayed for himself while connecting his soul to the place.
That's just how I see it.
Of course, I am a humble ignorant person here and just a female so it would be out of place for me to go further. But I just don't think Lubab feels this way. It's just different philospohies and I wont think any less of Chabad or Lubab ever because of this.
This is how a Chabad rabbi explains this: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm
I also agree with what you say Tzvi Ben Roshel.
--- End quote ---
There is disagreement in Halakha as to whether one should pray at the graves of Tzaddikim.
Most say it is fine but there are a few who disagree.
Either way, God will listen to your prayer if it is said sincerely much more than if a deceased Tzaddik prays for you instead.
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