What is wrong with interreligious dating?

[Carlyle]

I spotted this quote at the dating section. JSullivan said:

Religious intermarriage is an extremely serious sin. Because we love our Jewish and Righteous Gentile members, we do not want to see them punished, G-d forbid.  Therefore, we will strictly enforce the rules forbidding any communications in this section that might lead to dating or relationships between Jews and Gentiles, G-d forbid.

Do people of Jewish faith have something against non-Jewish people who date Jews and convert properly to Judaism before the marriage?

Also, this rule applied to such Jews who had converted to Christianity or Christians whose mothers are Jewish. Christianity doesn't accept any distinction between a Christian of Jewish background or a Christian of non-Jewish background in this matter. I politely ask that the religious convictions of Righteous Gentiles are respected on JTF.

[Zionist Revolutionary]

Do people of Jewish faith have something against non-Jewish people who date Jews and convert properly to Judaism before the marriage?

There are problems when you date while of a different religion.  For example, would the person be converting because they seriously believe in Judaism, or would they only do it because they wanted to marry the Jewish person?  Judaism is a serious commitment, and a sacred tradition, and only those who seriously believe in Judaism are allowed to convert to Judaism.  And if someone does convert to Judaism according to Jewish law (properly, as you said), then Jews are required to treat him or her as their brother/sister.  They are as Jewish as a Jew by birth.

Does this clear everything up, or are there more inquiries?

[Lisa]

I agree with Raphael.  Judaim welcome Jews who properly convert to Judaism.  Jews don't seek out converts, but if a person is sincere about wanting to become a Jew then that's great. 

[wonderfulgoy]

In the Torah, converts are referred to in a couple of places as a 'mixed multitude'.  Although there are Commandments not to harass proselytes there are no Commandments prohibiting classifying them as a different kind of Jew.  There is also no Commandment to consider them 'equally Jewish' to born Jews.

To say otherwise is to be spouting the ultra-modern, politically correct line: which as everyone knows is a get-out clause from accusations of racism and is not at all genuine. 

[Zionist Revolutionary]

In the Torah, converts are referred to in a couple of places as a 'mixed multitude'.  Although there are Commandments not to harass proselytes there are no Commandments prohibiting classifying them as a different kind of Jew.  There is also no Commandment to consider them 'equally Jewish' to born Jews.

To say otherwise is to be spouting the ultra-modern, politically correct line: which as everyone knows is a get-out clause from accusations of racism and is not at all genuine. 

GthS, this is the first time I have encountered you in debate.  I'm flattered.

If you had read the Torah, the Erev Rav (Mixed Multitudes) came before Sinai.  They were Egyptians who came with the Jews, and intermingled with them before the covenant was given.

Rabbi Meir Kahane, zecher tzaddik livraha once during a debate with Dennis Prager showed that the "Love the stranger in your midst, for you were strangers in a strange land" quote from the Torah is refering to Converts.  We are commanded to love the convert as ourselves.

Converts must be equally Jewish, because they will be marrying Jews.  If they are not equally Jewish, then they cannot marry Jews and it would be as if they had not converted.

[Lisa]

Also, remember that Ruth (from whom King David descended) was a convert. 

And on last week's Ask JTF show, Chaim said that in order for a Gentile to convert to Judaism, he/she must accept "the yoke of heaven."  Now I don't know the meaning of "yoke of heaven" but your questions about converts to Judaism is a good one.  So you might want to ask Chaim about it in the Ask JTF section. 

[adam613]

I would like to add my two cents here. First of all the term Jew means from the tribe of Judah. In earlier books of the bible the term is Hebrew but in the later books including the story of Esther they use the term Judah because by that time most of the Jews were from that tribe. Despite this we do allow converts if they are sincere and g-d does reward sincere converts as he did with Ruth as Lisa pointed out as from the convert Ruth came David.

However, g-d did give certain commands to the Jewish people because of what their ancestors went through. People who are not descendent's of the Hebrew who were let out of Egypt are not required in many of the obligations Jews are obligated in. Since g-d performed a tremendous miracle to get us out of Egypt in return we owe g-d more then other nations because we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for g-d's complete interventions. To give you an example chapter 11 in Leviticus talks about kosher and nonkosher animals. In verse 45 in Chapter 11 it says the following: For I the Lord and He who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your g-d and you shall be holy for I am holy. Gentiles do not have to keep kosher although they can if they want. Jews are suppose to live in Israel while other nations do not have to. G-d does expect all nations to be moral and to thank g-d for whatever he has done for them as an individual or collectively as a nation. However, gentiles do not have to fulfill certain obligations that g-d required of Jews because of the experiences our forefathers and foremothers went through. If someone even though he is not a decedent of the Jewish people wants to take on these responsibilities we allow him after making sure he is sincere. But he or she has no obligations to take on these additional commands that Jews have. Obviously, because of these different requirements it wouldn't make sense for gentiles to marry Jews.

Also, I just wanted to say for what it is worth that they have done studies on the DNA of Jews and from what I understand there is a small amount of difference that concludes that maybe 1/2% of Jews are converts. And their DNA is surprisingly very similar to each other and shows similar ancestry more so then countries in Asia or in Africa that actually are more mixed even though you would think otherwise. I guess that is because in some of these countries they will discriminate if you look different even if you really are more related then somebody else  more then Jews did so we do have some variety even though there is a small amount of conversions in Jews who are Jews today of about 1/2%. Just thought I would mention that for what it is worth since other's have felt differently on this subject then I have although as the Torah says the Torah doesn't require gentile to be Jews and if they really insist we allow them to convert after a period of training. Some converts did turn out to be very righteous like Ruth did.

[Carlyle]

There are problems when you date while of a different religion.  For example, would the person be converting because they seriously believe in Judaism, or would they only do it because they wanted to marry the Jewish person?  Judaism is a serious commitment, and a sacred tradition, and only those who seriously believe in Judaism are allowed to convert to Judaism.  And if someone does convert to Judaism according to Jewish law (properly, as you said), then Jews are required to treat him or her as their brother/sister.  They are as Jewish as a Jew by birth.

Does this clear everything up, or are there more inquiries?

But why does Chaim Ben Pesach oppose interreligious dating? It might not be a good idea but it is not wrong.

[Lisa]

Chaim opposes any dating if it's not for the sole purpose of marriage.

[Jizzepie]

It's wrong for Christians to go out with people of other religions (cf2 Cor. 6:14-15).

[Carlyle]

It's wrong for Christians to go out with people of other religions (cf2 Cor. 6:14-15).

I doubt that passage applies to Jewish people. Also, Chaim Ben Pesach condemned relationships between Jews who have converted to Christianity and non-Jews.

[Jizzepie]

I doubt that passage applies to Jewish people. Also, Chaim Ben Pesach condemned relationships between Jews who have converted to Christianity and non-Jews.

Of course it doesn't, I wasn't trying to speak for Jews. I'm just saying it's wrong for Christians to go out with non-Christians(including Jews).

[Carlyle]

Chaim opposes any dating if it's not for the sole purpose of marriage.

What is the definition of "dating"? It's an informal relationship analogous to friendship.

Men and women can befriend each other without intent of marriage. It is not their choice if the friendship blossoms to love.

If friendships are allowed between Jews and Gentiles then dating is allowed, too. Betrothal and marriage are a different issue altogether.

[Carlyle]

Of course it doesn't, I wasn't trying to speak for Jews. I'm just saying it's wrong for Christians to go out with non-Christians(including Jews).

No, I said that the passage does not forbid Christians from dating Jews. Many early Christians were married to Jewish people who did not choose to follow Christ (at first).

The passage refers to pagans. A Jew isn't an "unbeliever" or "infidel" like them.

[petre]

Of course it doesn't, I wasn't trying to speak for Jews. I'm just saying it's wrong for Christians to go out with non-Christians(including Jews).

No, I said that the passage does not forbid Christians from dating Jews. Many early Christians were married to Jewish people who did not choose to follow Christ (at first).

The passage refers to pagans. A Jew isn't an "unbeliever" or "infidel" like them.

Friendships among those of different religions is fine, as we have on this site. As long as people stick to their religious convictions. Only engagement or serious dating should be done among those of the same religious sect, (Catholic on Catholic, Protestant on Protestant, Muslim on Muslim, Jew on Jew).

[wonderfulgoy]

Friendships among those of different religions is fine, as we have on this site. As long as people stick to their religious convictions. Only engagement or serious dating should be done among those of the same religious sect, (Catholic on Catholic, Protestant on Protestant, Muslim on Muslim, Jew on Jew).

Were you aware that most 'racists' today are people who 'intend' to be anti-racist or are you just trying to get a discussion going?

Go and see all the white kids falling over themselves to be 'black and cool', getting black friends or lovers because MTV tells them that everything white is evil and that white people must behave as black as possible.  Go and see employers and other respectable whites trying so hard to be nice to blacks that they end up treating their own people with contempt.  If you don't think things like that are racist then you are very much deceived.

That being said, may the strongest side win.  A white race that cannot defend itself against a squalid and mindless little ideology like 'racial diversity/equality' is a white race that deserves to be put in the dustbin of history for all time. 

[Jizzepie]

It is true that blacks smell.....

[wonderfulgoy]

It is true that blacks smell.....

BTW I had originally written this (and that black/white segregation is favourable) before I edited. 

I was not disavowing my original words I just wanted to take a different tac.  I stand by my words of hoping that blacks will go away and leave white people alone.  I was with a girl once and she kept remarking on the passing black men how smelly they were.  Black men are truly repulsive creatures.

[Shoshana]

I am not against interreligious dating when it comes to Jews. As a whole the jewish birthrates are low and Jewish people in general worldwide is few in numbers, given that if a couple wants to marry I think the prospective spouse should convert.
I would be against a Jew converting simply because of the shear amount of Christians there are in the world compared to Jews. We need all the Jews we can get!
Just my opinion though

[Shlomo]

For us as Jews, if a Jewish person marries outside, G-d forbid, then how can they keep the Torah and have Jewish children?

For Christians, I know it is forbidden for them to marry non-Christians. The term "equally yoked" comes from 2 Corinthians 6:14.

It is wrong to intermarry. A marriage without two people on the same path moving towards the same goal is doomed.

[RationalThought110]

Chaim opposes any dating if it's not for the sole purpose of marriage.

What is the definition of "dating"? It's an informal relationship analogous to friendship.

Men and women can befriend each other without intent of marriage. It is not their choice if the friendship blossoms to love.

If friendships are allowed between Jews and Gentiles then dating is allowed, too. Betrothal and marriage are a different issue altogether.

This is a false rationale. 

[Carlyle]

For us as Jews, if a Jewish person marries outside, G-d forbid, then how can they keep the Torah and have Jewish children?

A Jewish woman who converts to Christianity becomes a Jew who does not practice Judaism. Her children will still be Jewish.

For Christians, I know it is forbidden for them to marry non-Christians. The term "equally yoked" comes from 2 Corinthians 6:14.

It applies to pagans.

[JeffIsrael]

I have to agree with JSullivan on what he said about interreligious dating. Let's look at the simple fact before the personal religous reasons. A person's religion is, what I believe, represents him or her souly. It's what we hold dear to us and it makes up our total fabric on how we see ourselves and the world around us. If you take two people of different religions and put them together, say as man and wife, I can't ever see it lasting because of the difference in the belief system. And if the two believe in their religion strongly, then they will always be at odds and never come to the peace and love and couple with the same religous backgrounds can come too. Our faith is important to us all on the site and as the old saying goes, birds of a feather flock together. It is so important to have all things in common when you choose a husband or wife because when you do marry, you become one unit. This is just my opinion.