I was wondering if someone here can help me understand the following mishna

[Dr. Dan]

primarily the bold area about the skull.


Fourth Division Nezikin

Mishna 5-7:

5. Hillel said: keep not aloof from the congregation and trust not in thyself until the day of they death, andjudge not thy fellow until though art come to his place, and say not of a thing which cannot be understood that it will be nderstood inteh end; and say not, When I haev leisure I will study: perchancethou wilt never have leisure.

6. He used to say: A brutish man dreads not sin, and an ignorant man cannot be saintly, and the shamefasat man cannot learn, and the impatient man cannot teach, and he that engages overmuch in trade cannot become wise; and where there are no men strive to be a man.

7. Moreover he saw a skull floating on the face of the water and he said unto it, 'Because thou dorwnest they drowned thee and at the last they that drowned thee shall be drowned.'    He used to say: The more flesh the more worms; the more possessions the more care; the more women the more witchcrafts; the more bondwomen the more lewdness; the more bondmen the more thieving; the more study of the Law the more life; the more schooling the more widom; the more counsel the more understanding; the more righteousness the mroe peace.  If a man has gained a good name he has gained for himself; if he has gained himself wodrs the Law has gained for himself life in the world to come

[jdl4ever]

Simple.  The Rabbi saw that the skull belonged to someone who was a murderer who drowned someone.  G-d paid him back with the same fate.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Judgement is exacted. What one does, will come back to him.

[Dr. Dan]

there is somethign incomplete with your answers...

It states that the one that drowned others was drowned.  However those that drowned the drowner woudl also be drowned.  Am i sensing from Hillel that revenge is bad?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

there is somethign incomplete with your answers...

It states that the one that drowned others was drowned.  However those that drowned the drowner woudl also be drowned.  Am i sensing from Hillel that revenge is bad?

No, it has nothing to do with revenge. Its about 1 being a criminal who drowned someone, then since he drowned someone else G-d will make it that he will himself be drowned by someone else who chooses to drown him (on his own free will). The point is like the expression "what comes around goes around" , sooner or later the person will pay.

[Dr. Dan]

there is somethign incomplete with your answers...

It states that the one that drowned others was drowned.  However those that drowned the drowner woudl also be drowned.  Am i sensing from Hillel that revenge is bad?

No, it has nothing to do with revenge. Its about 1 being a criminal who drowned someone, then since he drowned someone else G-d will make it that he will himself be drowned by someone else who chooses to drown him (on his own free will). The point is like the expression "what comes around goes around" , sooner or later the person will pay.

I understand but that only answers the first part.  "you have drowned because you drowned others" is precisely what you are describing...
However, the next part states the very person who drowned the criminal will also be drowned.  That second line might have two meanings:

1. That Gd used another person to exact His justice on the drowner.
2. That Gd and only Gd can punish criminals and that if anyone else tries to do it instead of Him, will also "be drowned".

(let's keep this discussion going)...good stuff

[jdl4ever]

Option 1 is the correct choice.  The pirate was probably drowned by another pirate.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

there is somethign incomplete with your answers...

It states that the one that drowned others was drowned.  However those that drowned the drowner woudl also be drowned.  Am i sensing from Hillel that revenge is bad?

No, it has nothing to do with revenge. Its about 1 being a criminal who drowned someone, then since he drowned someone else G-d will make it that he will himself be drowned by someone else who chooses to drown him (on his own free will). The point is like the expression "what comes around goes around" , sooner or later the person will pay.

I understand but that only answers the first part.  "you have drowned because you drowned others" is precisely what you are describing...
However, the next part states the very person who drowned the criminal will also be drowned.  That second line might have two meanings:

1. That Gd used another person to exact His justice on the drowner.
2. That Gd and only Gd can punish criminals and that if anyone else tries to do it instead of Him, will also "be drowned".

(let's keep this discussion going)...good stuff

I see what you mean, but the second guy who drowns the person who drowned (killed someone else), does it because of his own free choice (which happened to be a criminal choice). G-d just puts the 2 together, one person to do what he wants to do with his free choice and the other guy who deserves death to be killed by the other guy. It is like Pharoh enslaving the Jews in Egypt, and doing all the horrible things to them, the reason why that happened was because of G-d's decree for the Jews to be in Egypt, BUT that still didn't give Pharoh the right to be the messenger. Same with the holocaust, and in actuality its the same with every transaction in life.
 So #1 is correct. #2 is problematic because G-d specifically gave laws to Jews and Noahides to establish courts of justice and establish order. Their is a statement In Pirki Avot (Mishna), that if their wouldn't be the fear of the Government, mankind would swallow eachother.  A Jewish court generally didn't execute people, because the criteria is extreme, not beyond a reasonable doubt, but without any doubt + other criteria, but in those rare instances where it did, it was justice according to the dictate of G-d.

[Dr. Dan]

there is somethign incomplete with your answers...

It states that the one that drowned others was drowned.  However those that drowned the drowner woudl also be drowned.  Am i sensing from Hillel that revenge is bad?

No, it has nothing to do with revenge. Its about 1 being a criminal who drowned someone, then since he drowned someone else G-d will make it that he will himself be drowned by someone else who chooses to drown him (on his own free will). The point is like the expression "what comes around goes around" , sooner or later the person will pay.

I understand but that only answers the first part.  "you have drowned because you drowned others" is precisely what you are describing...
However, the next part states the very person who drowned the criminal will also be drowned.  That second line might have two meanings:

1. That Gd used another person to exact His justice on the drowner.
2. That Gd and only Gd can punish criminals and that if anyone else tries to do it instead of Him, will also "be drowned".

(let's keep this discussion going)...good stuff

I see what you mean, but the second guy who drowns the person who drowned (killed someone else), does it because of his own free choice (which happened to be a criminal choice). G-d just puts the 2 together, one person to do what he wants to do with his free choice and the other guy who deserves death to be killed by the other guy. It is like Pharoh enslaving the Jews in Egypt, and doing all the horrible things to them, the reason why that happened was because of G-d's decree for the Jews to be in Egypt, BUT that still didn't give Pharoh the right to be the messenger. Same with the holocaust, and in actuality its the same with every transaction in life.
 So #1 is correct. #2 is problematic because G-d specifically gave laws to Jews and Noahides to establish courts of justice and establish order. Their is a statement In Pirki Avot (Mishna), that if their wouldn't be the fear of the Government, mankind would swallow eachother.  A Jewish court generally didn't execute people, because the criteria is extreme, not beyond a reasonable doubt, but without any doubt + other criteria, but in those rare instances where it did, it was justice according to the dictate of G-d.

Well said...

So to reiterate.  When a sinner gets his pay by another sinner, it is Gd's desire in causing justice.  However, the one who carries out the sin for the sake of justice, but with his own free will without a true knowledge of Gd's will, is also a sinner deserving of the same punishment later on.

With the Shoah, 6 million of us were murdered by the hands of the Nazis.  In 70 CE, we were thrown out of Eretz Yisrael by the Romans.  And in Egypt, we were slaves.  We were drowned because we drowned others...and our enemies, who drowned us, did end up getting drowned.  It was prophecized that Gd would punish us for being unruly and His justice on us was performed by the free will of other men against us.  It didn't give them the right to do it, however, and that's why they were later on destroyed for tormenting us in the worst ways even though Gd said He would cause that to happen for our ignorance. 

What I find to be most troubling in this (although it's true) is what's behind it.  If it was meant for us to be punished for our unruliness by other men, then why are those men being punished when they were doing Gd's desire?  It seems the answer would be because they weren't doing it in Gd's name, but for their own free will of savagry. 

So what if a different people who were gentiles and also believed in the Gd of Israel, knew of our unruliness and did Gd's bidding for Him to punish us in the same manner to carry out justice?  Do those men get "drowned" later on as well?

Does this make any sense?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

[Dr. Dan]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

I understand this. 

However, if one should not curse Jews even in their unruly times and the whole world were to heed that warning that "those who curseth will be cursed", then how else will Gd perform his justice?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

I understand this. 

However, if one should not curse Jews even in their unruly times and the whole world were to heed that warning that "those who curseth will be cursed", then how else will Gd perform his justice?

He has his ways and agents. Their are animals, natural disaster, cars (for car accidents), diseases, and many other agents. But if the world would be in that perfected state, then their wouldn't have to be a need for it to happen. And justice is not allways executed in this world, so when someone sees very bad people enjoying life, etc. It is for our free choice , but justice will be served one way or another.

[Dr. Dan]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

I understand this. 

However, if one should not curse Jews even in their unruly times and the whole world were to heed that warning that "those who curseth will be cursed", then how else will Gd perform his justice?

He has his ways and agents. Their are animals, natural disaster, cars (for car accidents), diseases, and many other agents. But if the world would be in that perfected state, then their wouldn't have to be a need for it to happen. And justice is not allways executed in this world, so when someone sees very bad people enjoying life, etc. It is for our free choice , but justice will be served one way or another.

I accept this principle.  What bidding of justice shoudl we do when it comes down to fellow Jews and to gentiles?  And what bidding of justice shoudl be done to us by fellow Jews and gentiles if Gd doesn't do it with other agents?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

I understand this. 

However, if one should not curse Jews even in their unruly times and the whole world were to heed that warning that "those who curseth will be cursed", then how else will Gd perform his justice?

He has his ways and agents. Their are animals, natural disaster, cars (for car accidents), diseases, and many other agents. But if the world would be in that perfected state, then their wouldn't have to be a need for it to happen. And justice is not allways executed in this world, so when someone sees very bad people enjoying life, etc. It is for our free choice , but justice will be served one way or another.

I accept this principle.  What bidding of justice shoudl we do when it comes down to fellow Jews and to gentiles?  And what bidding of justice shoudl be done to us by fellow Jews and gentiles if Gd doesn't do it with other agents?

The proper court and court systems. Unless one is a rodef and is endangering one's or another's life and the only way to stop them is to kill them.

[Dr. Dan]

They would not be allowed to do it even in G-d's name. This is something the Arabs try to claim, BUT they were never commanded to do so. If they had a mitzva of when the Jews are doing A,B, and C, then go murder them so they learn a lesson, then they would be justified, BUT they never were commanded to do so, and infact G-d instructs and warns the exact opposite. for example " Those that curse you, will be cursed" - it is not a condition, but a statement from G-d.

I understand this. 

However, if one should not curse Jews even in their unruly times and the whole world were to heed that warning that "those who curseth will be cursed", then how else will Gd perform his justice?

He has his ways and agents. Their are animals, natural disaster, cars (for car accidents), diseases, and many other agents. But if the world would be in that perfected state, then their wouldn't have to be a need for it to happen. And justice is not allways executed in this world, so when someone sees very bad people enjoying life, etc. It is for our free choice , but justice will be served one way or another.

I accept this principle.  What bidding of justice shoudl we do when it comes down to fellow Jews and to gentiles?  And what bidding of justice shoudl be done to us by fellow Jews and gentiles if Gd doesn't do it with other agents?

The proper court and court systems. Unless one is a rodef and is endangering one's or another's life and the only way to stop them is to kill them.

ok good discussion....