Author Topic: Shalom, from an ex muslim  (Read 27171 times)

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Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2008, 04:01:16 AM »
So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.

That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.

It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.

However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.

Crusades were not about conquest it was action aimed at liberating the lands conquered by first Jihaad, bolstering Bizantium and helping local christians persecuted by muslims, even European colonisation of XVI-XIX century was more about gaining gold, spices and indutrial resources than evangelising. During the first three centuries christianity was spreading peacfully despite bloody roman prosecutions; during the first three centuries moslems conquered by sword the land from Spain to India. And they not changed at all. On all borders of Dar al islam therer is the bloody war now. 
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2008, 07:00:38 AM »
So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.

That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.

It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.

However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.

Crusades were not about conquest it was action aimed at liberating the lands conquered by first Jihaad, bolstering Bizantium and helping local christians persecuted by muslims, even European colonisation of XVI-XIX century was more about gaining gold, spices and indutrial resources than evangelising. During the first three centuries christianity was spreading peacfully despite bloody roman prosecutions; during the first three centuries moslems conquered by sword the land from Spain to India. And they not changed at all. On all borders of Dar al islam therer is the bloody war now. 
Perphaps but the Crusaders killed many Jews as they traveled to Jerusalem
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2008, 07:31:48 AM »
Shalom, Ex-Muslim, if you have no religion now and seek a spiritual path, then the best for you is to be a Noachide. The Torah, unlike religions, does not demand a non-Jew to become a Jew in order to save his soul. Jewish observance is only binding for those who were born Jewish or have converted. Other Nations only need to keep the Seven Noachide Laws. You can learn about the Noachide Laws in most sites, and a Rav here, can also explain it to you

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2008, 07:59:57 AM »
Perphaps but the Crusaders killed many Jews as they traveled to Jerusalem
[/quote]

That's right it was stain on shield and pope apologised for this; but that was not oficial goal of crusades, unlike the Jihad. Antisemitism in church was aberation made from jelousy towards Jews as Bible chosen nation; the church leadership wanted all blessing G-d gave Israel on themselfs, and all curses to be on Jews. It's called replecment theology. I have good good articles on the topic was crusades can't be compared to Jihaad:

THE CRUSADES AND JIHAD

  

Back in 1999 while our mission was being bombed by the National Islamic Front government in Sudan, fellow missionaries were organising “Reconciliation Walks” to the Middle East to apologise for “The Crusades”. At the time, as our church services were under aerial and artillery bombardment by Jihadists, it seemed rather bizarre. Therefore I undertook a study of the crusades and Jihad.

Anin Maalouf in “The Crusades through Arab eyes” claims that the Crusaders conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 was “The starting point of a millennial hostility between Islam and the West.” Islamic scholar John Esposito blames the Crusades for disrupting “Five centuries of peaceful coexistence elapsed before political events and an imperial papal power-play led to a centuries long series of so called Holy Wars that pitted Christendom against Islam and left an enduring legacy of misunderstanding and distrust.” (“Islam: The Straight Path” OUP).

What Preceeded The Crusades?

However the Crusades only started after five centuries of Islamic Jihad had conquered and annihilated, or forcibly converted, over two thirds of what had formerly been the Christian world. Shortly after the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem, in 638, Christian pilgrims were harassed, massacred, and early in the 8th Century, 60 Christian pilgrims from Amoriem were crucified.

The Muslim governor of Caesarea seized a group of pilgrims from Iconium and had them all executed. Muslims extorted ransom money from Pilgrims, and threatened to ransack the most holy churches in Christendom such as the Church of the Resurrection - if they didn’t pay exorbitant taxes. In the 8th Century a Muslim ruler banned all displays of the Cross in Jerusalem. He also increased the penalty tax (Jizya) and forbad Christians to engage in any religious instruction, even of their own children! In 772, the Calipha al Mansur ordered the hands of all Christians and Jews in Jerusalem to be branded.

In 789, Muslims beheaded a monk in Bethlehem, plundering the monastery and slaughtering many more Christians. In 923, a new wave of destruction of churches was launched by the Muslim rulers. In 937, Muslims went on a rampage in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday plundering and destroying the Church of Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection.

In 1004 the Fatimid Calipha Abu Ali al–Mansur al–Hakim unleashed a violent wave of church burning and destruction, confiscation of Christian property, and ferocious slaughter of both Christians and Jews. Over the next ten years, thirty thousand churches were destroyed and vast numbers of Believers were forcibly converted or killed.

In 1009, Al-Hakim ordered that the most holy churches in Christendom – the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem - be destroyed. He heaped humiliating and burdensome decrees upon Christians and Jews forcing Christians to wear heavy crosses around their necks, and Jews to have blocks of wood in the shape of a calf around their necks. Ultimately, he ordered Christians and Jews to either accept Islam or flee his areas of control.

Christians remained in a precarious position and under threat throughout the Middle East. When the Seljuk Turks swept into Jerusalem in 1077 they murdered over three thousand people, including many Christians. It was at this point that the Christian Emperor of Byzantium, Alexius I, appealed for help to the Western churches.

Pope Urban II challenged the knights of Europe at the Council of Clermont in 1095: “The Turks and Arabs have attacked our brethren in the East and have conquered the territory of Romania (the Greek Empire) as far as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont…have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many and have destroyed the churches and devastated the Empire. If you continue to permit them to continue thus for a while with impunity, the faithful of G-d will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I…persuade all people of whatever rank, foot soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians…”

Nowhere was the call for the launch of the Crusades talking about either conquest or conversion, they were merely to remove the Islamic invaders from the lands that had previously been Christian, to restore religious freedom to the Holy Lands.

Myths And Misconceptions

The politically correct dogma that the Crusades were unprovoked, imperialist actions against the peaceful, indigenous Muslim population is simply not accurate. Such propaganda reflects a hostility for Western civilization, and often against Christianity itself, rather than any actual historical research.

Similarly, the characterization of the Crusaders as greedy for loot, only out for personal gain, is simply out of touch with reality. Those who participated in the Crusades saw it as an act of sacrifice rather than of profit. The Crusades were in fact prohibitivly expensive. Many Crusaders had to sell their property to raise money for the long journey to the Holy Land and knew that their chances of returning alive were slight. Most who did manage to survive and return came back with nothing material to show for their efforts.

Similarly the modern PC myth that the Crusaders attempted to forcibly convert Muslims to Christianity is a politically motivated fantasy. Search as one might through the writings and records of the Crusaders, one will not find any mention of Crusaders seeking to convert the Sarracens or the Turks. The Crusaders saw themselves as Pilgrims seeking to recapture and liberate Christian lands from vicious invaders.

Even Maalouf in The Crusades Through Arab Eyes, reports the observations of Spanish Muslim Ibn Jubayr who traversed the Mediterranean on his way to Mecca in the early 1180’s and found that the Muslims were far better off in those lands controlled by the Crusaders than they were in Muslim ruled lands. And that Muslims preferred to live in the Crusader realms as those lands were more orderly and better managed.

Ibn Jubayr wrote: “Whose lands were efficiently cultivated. The inhabitants were all Muslims. They live in comfort with the Franks – may G-d preserve them from temptation! Their dwellings belong to them and all their property is unmolested. All their regions, patrolled by the Crusaders in Syria are subject to the same system: The land that remains, the villages and farms, have remained in the hands of the Muslims. Now, doubt invests the hearts of a great number of these men when they compare their lot to that of their brothers living in Muslim territories. Indeed, the latter suffer from the injustices of their co-religionists, whereas the Franks act with equity.”

The Crusades have often been portrayed as European Colonialism, but the Crusader states were not ruled from Western Europe. The governments they established did not answer to any Western power. Nor did the Crusader rulers siphon off the wealth of their lands and send it back to Europe. No streams of settlers came from Europe to settle in these states, which were established only in order to provide permanent protection for Christians in the Holy Land.

The Merciful Saladin

The presentation of Muslim commanders such as Saladin as merciful and magnanimous is a myth. When Saladin captured the Crusaders at Hattim on 4 July 1187, he ordered the mass execution of all the Christians: “They should be beheaded in accordance with Quran 47:4 ‘When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike their necks’” Saladin’s secretary Imad reported, “With him were a whole band of scholars and Sufis and a certain number of devout men and aesthetics; each begged to be allowed to kill one of them and drew their swords and rolled back their sleeves. Saladin, his face joyful, was sitting on his dais; the unbelievers showed black despair.”

In 1148, the Muslim Commander Nur ed–Din ordered the slaughter of every Christian in Aleppo.

In 1268, when Mamluk Sultan Baybars seized Antioch, he ensured that all the men were slaughtered, the women sold into slavery, the crosses in every church smashed, the Bibles torn and burned, the graves of Christians desecrated, every monk, priest and deacon was dragged to the altar and had their throats slit where a mass had previously been celebrated, the Church of Saint Paul and the Cathedral of Saint Peter were destroyed and the bodies of the Christians burned.

When on 29 May 1453, the greatest city in the world of that time, Constantinople, was conquered by the Jihadists, the Muslims “slew everyone that they met in the streets, men, women and children without discrimination. The blood ran in rivers down the steep streets from the heights of Petra toward the golden horn”. The Muslim soldiers even entered the Hagia Sophia, and slaughtered thousands of Christians worshipping in what was then the largest church in the world at that time.

What Did The Crusades Achieve?

The Crusades bought Europe time. From the first century of Islam Muslim armies were invading Europe. Spain suffered under Islamic occupation for 8 centuries. In the 14th Century, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Albania and Croatia fell to Muslim invasions.

In 1426 the Egyptian Mukluks conquered Cyprus. In 1395 the Muslims conquered Nicopolis on the Danube River. In 1444 the Muslim armies seized Varna in Hungary. In 1456 the Turks besieged Belgrade, and even tried to conquer Rome, but were thrown back. The Muslims first attempted to seize Vienna in 1529. As late as 11 September 1683 Muslim armies besieged Vienna, but were routed by 30 000 Polish Hussars (cavalrymen) led by Poland’s King Jan III Sobieski.

Were The Crusades A Failure?

The constant depiction of the Crusades as a failure is not justified by the historical record. The Crusades succeeded in seizing the initiative, throwing the Muslim invaders onto the defensive, for the first time after five centuries of attack. The Crusaders bought Europe time – centuries in fact.

At a critical time, the Crusades united a divided Europe, and threw the Muslim invaders back, bringing a peace and security to Europe that had not been known for centuries. As a result of the tremendous sacrifices of the Crusaders, Christian Europe experienced Spiritual Revival and Biblical Reformation which inspired a great resurgence of learning, scientific experimentation, technological advancement, and movements that led to greater prosperity and freedoms than had ever been known in all of history.

For a picture of what Europe might be like today had Islam succeeded in conquering it, one can look at the previously Christian civilisations of Egypt and what is today called Turkey. The Copts in Egypt now make up just 10% of the total Egyptian population, and are severely oppressed. What is today called Turkey was once the vibrant Christian Byzantine Empire, the economic and military superpower of its day. Today the Christian civilization which had flourished there for a thousand years has all but been extinguished. The last Christian city in Asia, Smyrna, was massacred by the Turkish Army in 1922.

The classic Hollywood version of the Crusades as depicted in the $150 million Kingdom of Heaven epic was produced in consultation with groups such as the Council on American – Islamic Relations.

Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith, author of A Short History of The Crusades described the film as “Rubbish!…it’s not historically accurate at all…it depicts the Muslims as sophisticated and civilized and the Crusaders are all brutes and barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality.”

Without the Crusades it is questionable whether Europe or American would even exist.

The Crusades ended over 700 years ago. Islamic Jihad continues to this day.

The popular misconceptions about the crusades are that these were aggressive wars of expansion fought by religious fanatics in order to evict Muslims from their homeland, and force conversions to Christianity. However the historical record does not support those assertions.

A Reaction To Jihad
The crusaders were reacting to over four centuries of relentless Islamic Jihad, which had wiped out over 50% of all the Christians in the world and conquered over 60% of all the Christian lands on earth – before the crusades even began . Many of the towns liberated by the crusaders were still over 90% Christian when the crusaders arrived. The Middle East was the birthplace of the Christian Church. It was the Christians who had been conquered and oppressed by the Seljuk Turks. So many of the towns in the Middle East welcomed the crusaders as liberators.

Far from the crusaders being the aggressors, it was the Muslim armies which had spread Islam from Saudi Arabia across the whole of Christian North Africa into Spain and even France within the first century after the death of Muhammad. Muslim armies sacked and slaughtered their way across some of the greatest Christian cities in the world, including Alexandria, Carthage, Antioch and Constantinople. These Muslim invaders destroyed over 3,200 Christian churches just in the first 100 years of Islam.

Defensive Wars
As Professor Thomas Madden in The Real History of the Crusades points out: “The crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression – an attempt to turn back, or defend against, Muslim conquests of Christian lands. Christians in the 11th Century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them…Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Muhammad, the means of Muslim expansion was always by the sword…Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth…The Christian world therefore was a prime target for the earliest Caliphas and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years…The crusades…were but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured over two thirds of the Christian world.” Without the Crusades it is questionable whether Europe or America would even exist.

Thinking The Unthinkable
As the London Telegraph pointed out: “A more realistic view of history requires less retrospective fantasy and more brain work. It means forcing your head around to see what motivated men and women centuries ago. Try to think the unthinkable – that the Crusaders were right, and that we should be grateful to them.”

Christian Love And Self Sacrifice

Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith explains that crusading was “an act of love” for one’s neighbour. An act of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As one church leader wrote to the Knights Templar: “You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘greater love than this hath no man, than that he lay down his life for his friends’.”

Professor Riley-Smith points out that the goals of the crusades were firstly to rescue the Christians of the East: “Many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims and tortured with innumerable torments.” And secondly the liberation of Jerusalem and other places made holy by the life of Christ.

The Medieval crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, restoring to the Lord Jesus Christ His property. “The Crusaders conquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism, but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one’s love of G-d…It is often assumed that the central goal of the crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of Medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in crusader won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood and always their religion.”

Against All Odds

When we think about the Middle Ages, we inevitably view Europe in the light of what it became rather than what it was. The fact is that the superpower of the Medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The crusades were a battle against all odds with impossibly long lines of supply and cripplingly inadequate logistics. It was a David against Goliath enterprise from the beginning. The chances of success for the first crusade were highly improbable. They had no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines and no detailed strategy. The first crusade consisted simply of thousands of dedicated warriors marching deep into enemy territory, thousands of kilometres from home. Many of them died of starvation, disease and wounds. It was a rough campaign that always was on the brink of disaster .

“Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had liberated Nicea and Antioch to Christian rule. And in July 1099 they re-conquered Jerusalem and began to rebuild a Christian state in Eretz Yisrael.”

A Judgement Of G-d
When Jerusalem fell to Saladin in 1187, Christians across Europe perceived that G-d was punishing them for their sins. Numerous lay movements sprang up throughout Europe dedicated to purifying Christian society so that it may become worthy of victory in the East.

Professor Madden, of St. Lewis University and the author of A Concise History of the Crusades, has observed: “From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our Medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the names of political ideologies…Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the crusades, it might have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.” But for the crusades Europe would have probably fallen to Islam and the USA would never have come into existence.

Learn To Discern

Dr. Ted Baehr of Movieguide warns viewers to be “media wise enough to reject revisionist history” such as the Kingdom of Heaven. “ The problem is that the future generations could accept this politically correct, anti-Christian propaganda.”

The Facts of History

The fact is that the crusades of the Middle Ages were a reaction to centuries of Islamic Jihad. In the first century of Islam alone Muslim invaders conquered the whole of the previously Christian North Africa destroying over 3200 churches – in just 100 years. In the first five centuries of Islam, Muslim forces killed Christians, kidnapped their children to raise them as Muslims, or compelled people at the point of the sword to convert to Islam . Up to 50% of all the Christians in the world were wiped out during the first three centuries of Islam. The Saracens (as the Muslim invaders were called) desecrated Christian places of worship and were severely persecuting Christians. Pilgrims were then prevented from visiting those places where our Lord was born, was crucified and raised from the dead. It was only after four centuries of Islamic Jihad that the crusades were launched as a belated reaction to the blatant Islamic Jihad.

Logistics and Economics

As the Christian History Institute has pointed out, the characterising of crusaders as only in it for the plunder and the loot betrays an ignorance of both geography and history. The vast majority of the crusaders were impoverished and financially ruined by the crusades. Crusaders, through great sacrifice and personal expense, left their homes and families to travel 3000km across treacherous and inhospitable terrain – and the shortest crusade lasted 4 years. Considering that only 10% of the crusaders had horses, and 90% were foot soldiers, the sheer fact of logistics is that the crusaders could not possibly have carried back enough loot to have made up for the loss of earnings and high expenses involved with these long crusades. Many crusaders lost their homes and farms to finance their involvement in the crusades.

There’s More to Life than Money

Perhaps self-seeking materialistic agnostics in the 21st Century cannot understand that some people could be motivated by something other than personal financial enrichment, but the fact is that many people make sacrifices for their religious convictions, and in order to help others. In the case of the crusaders, the historical record makes clear that amongst the motivations that led tens of thousands of volunteers to reclaim the Holy Land was a sense of Christian duty to help their fellow Christians in the East whose lands have been invaded and churches desecrated by Muslim armies, and a desire to secure access to the Holy Lands for pilgrims. There was also a desire to fight for the honour of their Lord Jesus Christ, Whose churches had been destroyed and Whose Deity had been denied by the Mohammadan aggressors. In other words, to the crusaders this was a defensive war to reclaim Christian lands from Muslim invaders.

We may not share their convictions, or agree with their methods, but we ought to evaluate them in the light of the realities of the 11th and 12th centuries, and not anachronistically project our standards and politics back upon them.

The Missing Jihad

Scriptwriter William Monahan, and Director Ridley Scott, obviously don’t understand the motivations behind the crusaders, and apparently they do not understand the Islamic doctrine of Jihad either – which the film makes no reference to. Considering that Jihad was the central threat that had lead to the reaction of the crusades, this omission is inexplicable. Kingdom of Heaven preoccupies itself with fictionalising crusader atrocities, but it ignores the pattern of the preceeding five centuries of genocide and aggression by Islamic armies. For those wanting the politically incorrect rest of the story which Kingdom of Heaven does not even hint of, you would want to read Slavery, Terrorism & Islam – The Historical Roots & Contemporary Threat.

Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven is politically correct, anti-Christian, pro-Muslim propaganda. It makes poor entertainment and is a worthless distortion of reality.

MOHAMMED VS CHRIST
In his article “Self Hate, Revisionist History and Christophobia in the movie Kingdom of Heaven” Dr. Ted Baehr notes some of the differences between Mohammed and Christ:

“Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Tim. 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Tim. 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ is the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (John 12:48).

Mohammed ’s method was COMPULSION; Christ’s aim was CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thess. 1:10).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Rom. 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Eph. 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Col. 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Cor. 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his G-d; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Rom. 12:17-21).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . . but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the Gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, "Preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

Mohammed's mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one G-d, Allah; Christ claimed that He was G-d (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY! ”

JIHAD VS THE GOSPEL

The word “crusade” does not appear in the Bible, nor is it commanded in Christianity. However, Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam and the second greatest command of Muhammad. It is not only commended, but commanded in the Quran.

The crusades ended many centuries ago. However Islamic Jihad is carried out to this day. Millions of Christians have been slaughtered throughout the centuries by Islamic militants – such as the 1.5 million Armenians murdered in Turkey in 1915. Christians have continued to be slaughtered by Islamic militants in Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan and Nigeria to the present day.

Therefore, before Christians fall over themselves to apologise for the crusades, which ended over 700 years ago, it would be wise to first learn from reliable sources what the crusades were all about, and study the Islamic teachings and track record of Jihad over the last 14 centuries . “Slavery, Terrorism and Islam – The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat” would provide a good introduction. Those who do not know their past have no future.

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/JihadAndCrusades.htm

Sorry for including NT quotes, but it's important to know what is diffrence beetween Islamism and Christianism, especialy when muslimes on one hand call to Jihad against "Zionsts and Crusaders", and for the other bash crusades for being agression against "peacefull" Islam. They do this against Jewish reclamation of Israel too called it naqba and western colonialism.  



Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2008, 09:00:10 AM »
Very good post UR.  Christianity was an ideology used as a tool by corrupt and power hungry kings, emperors and popes.  Most of the "missionaries" were actaully massacred in many lands when attempting to pros'ize to the pagans: Japan and China for example.  Of course there are historical realities of tragic wars in the name of "Christianity" but most were European between pagan and Christian/Catholics or Christian/Christian...aside from the Nazis and Cortez's venture into Mexico.  Then again, who'd want to really live in a society of cannibalism, human sacrifices and caste like lives?  The Crusades were a reaction to the expansion of the Koranimals encrouching on Christian boarders.  "Jihad" had been on going and expanding Islam from Spain to Asia for 400 years prior to the Crusades...

Yacov...I've been questioning and saying the like for a very long time now......  "So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end."   ???  I'm not even going to entertain such ignorace, closed mindedness and in my opinion Koranimalist deception....
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2008, 11:04:03 AM »
Now do you hate muslims?

Do I have to? Actually I hate islam,I despise muslim atrocities and fundemantilists. I even enjoy see them extrerminated by the Idf. And I really would find it strange that some jews or israelis feelspity for "innocent "casualties in recent IDF strikes. There's nothing called "innocent" in islamic socities. they are all in a battle against the whole world, and israel is on the front. Israel can do whatever it wants to protect its safety. and the muslims will soon reproduce again, no matter how many are killed. Don't worry about them.

Just so you know. Sarah is 15 year old, from britain, brought up as a muslim.. For a moment she left it and became a kahanist. Then she seemed to go back to it and refused to deny it, and then she admitted some fallacies of its "claims to be true". She seems to be on the fence with islam, and she goes to a muslim school. And she has sympathised alot with "innocent" people israel kills e.g. rachel corrie, even saying it is wrong/immoral.

Just so you know!!

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2008, 05:02:32 PM »
No worries qq. ;)   Sarah has been here for a very long time now....
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2008, 05:48:56 PM »
No worries qq. ;)   Sarah has been here for a very long time now....

My comment (that sarah is in a muslim school and the rest ) was for our new comrade from lebanon. (the one that started the thread, and the one I quoted!)

I would have written it anyway, but it was all the more important in light of sarah`s posts and his response to them.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 05:54:08 PM by q_q_ »

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2008, 09:12:56 AM »
You see what Chaim has been saying about everyone having free will...

this is an example of that and it just shows that JTF can appeal to even "past muslims"

You are most welcome ex-muslim and we hope you remain active on our forum.

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2008, 04:26:31 PM »
So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.

That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.

It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.

No, No. I didn't suggest that one side has to stop fighting in order to break whatever cycle. I don't think that is possible, because both sides one to win.

It'll just take the more powerful side to completely prevent and stop the other from continuing the cucle.


Quote
  I'm not even going to entertain such ignorace, closed mindedness and in my opinion Koranimalist deception...

I don't get it, what I said makes sense. ???

Both the Jews and muslims will continue fighting, non-stop. Kabilov said the muslims started it and the Jews are fighting back. I just reiterated it.

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2008, 05:15:01 PM »
I agree with you Sara I think the more powerfull side the Fakestinians, their A-rab pupet masters from Saudi Arabia and Syria, iSSlamists from non A-rab muslime ocupied countries like Iran or Pakistan , and their nazi and leftist apologist from the west shud stop their agression against tiny Jewish state, and other non muslimes in ME and whole world. I do hope that you meant it. ;)
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Sarah

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2008, 05:21:23 PM »
I agree with you Sara I think the more powerfull side the Fakestinians, their A-rab pupet masters from Saudi Arabia and Syria, iSSlamists from non A-rab muslime ocupied countries like Iran or Pakistan , and their nazi and leftist apologist from the west shud stop their agression against tiny Jewish state, and other non muslimes in ME and whole world. I do hope that you meant it. ;)

Not really. I didn't take sides, or say which one is more powerful. Over different time periods, the Jews have won wars....and other times the Arabs have too.

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2008, 05:33:45 PM »
I was woried you'll tell some thing like this... Well atleast you don't apologise sodomite perverersion. ::)
Israel never won its wars becouse the Jews were more military powerfull than A-rabs, quite the oposite; the more important thing is that A-rabs were always the agressive side, Israel trying to stop the circle of violence will get all its Jewish citisens sloughtered. Middle East is not Middle West.
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Sarah

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2008, 05:37:14 PM »
Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...along with being united where the Arabs were not.

I understand why Israel cannot and will not stop fighting.

Though I understand from the prolonged fighting how the Arabs cannot back out either, they have been commanded to fight for their land and at the same time don't want to back down.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2008, 06:45:25 PM »
Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...along with being united where the Arabs were not.

I understand why Israel cannot and will not stop fighting.

Though I understand from the prolonged fighting how the Arabs cannot back out either, they have been commanded to fight for their land and at the same time don't want to back down.

If the arabs put down their weapons there would be peace.
If the jews in israel put down their weapons. Then as you admit, the arabs would attempt to kill us all there. (And rape the women no doubt)

That is one fairly strong moral argument to take Israel`s side.

Moreso if you are talking about the problem that israel has to fight and that the arabs fight. And saying "therefore" you do not take sides.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 06:47:35 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Sarah

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2008, 06:49:14 PM »
If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?


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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2008, 06:51:32 PM »
If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?



no.

Right wing jews would, but only to the jordan river to get the west bank. Which Israel had anyway after the 1967 war but gave back . And of course that area has the holiest jewish site (as holy to jews as the kabba is to muslims).


Offline q_q_

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2008, 06:53:16 PM »
and of course since we are told they are occupied anyway, it wouldn`t really be expansion!!

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2008, 06:53:35 PM »
Sarah, are you for real?  Why do you totally dismiss out of hand the realities on the ground?  Think for one minute and ask yourself how Islam became the dominant "religion" from Spain to Asia and that "Jihad" had been practiced (and still is) 4 centuries prior to the crusades?

Come on....really.  

PS: Israel should NEVER have given one inch of land after the 6 Day War....further it should have expelled its Koranimal populous "thorn" from within its midst.  

PPS: Would Israel want to "expand"?  Only to its mandated borders of the Balfaur Declaration or that of 1923: the first "two state solution".  Personally, I'd prefer the post '67 borders.  Perhaps if Israel did expand its boarders there might be a relative peace as Israel is a much more peaceful entity than all 60+ Islamosavage dictatorial regimes are put together... ;)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 06:57:46 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2008, 04:20:29 AM »
I love your post mazutra, you always have this big picture. I got few links for Sarah on what ME is about; It not about Israel and "zionists" only:

http://www.peacefaq.com/palestinians.html#arethe

http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html

http://www.peacefaq.com/lebanon.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GjApOeWHtv4C&pg=PA8&dq=crusader+state&sig=22l1BbBFqvB6nexTr7wmZFTF9h8#PPP1,M1

http://phoenicia.org/maronites.html

Someone who wants to feed the iSSlamic crocodile with Israel, like EU or USA ruling elites will have very unpleasent suprise; and everybody will have to choose sides soon.
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2008, 07:19:07 AM »
Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...

That's not true at all.

In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2008, 08:56:24 AM »
Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...

That's not true at all.

In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.
Some Jews were veterans of WWII, and the Etzel and Lehi had been fighting the British for years, though we were wildly outnumbered with no formal army and few weapons.

What is not well known even among Jews is that in the war of independence the British fought with the Arabs, keep in mind the British still had their empire and an incredibly poweful army that had just won WWII. 
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2008, 09:56:21 AM »
I suggest reading "A will to survive" by John Phillips to get an idea of the British actions during the '48 War and their heading the Jordanian Army.  A very good coffee table book with fabulous photos, first hand accounts and knowledged research.  O0

"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Sarah

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2008, 01:46:59 PM »
Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...

That's not true at all.

In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.

NO WAY! The Irgun and Stern has some of the most experienced fighters ever. I think i read somewhere that all the young men had to go through training courses as well.
The arabs were by far less experienced or organised when it came to fighting.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Shalom, from an ex muslim
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2008, 04:46:23 PM »
It is true that the Jewish fighters, including the Socialist rot: Hagganah, were very well trained, organized but not nearly as armed and outfitted as the Arabs.  King Ferouk of Egypt had been outfitted and headed by Nazis with organization of the Brits.  The Jordanian Legion was headed by Brits.  This goes the same for almost every Arab army in '48 and since.  My friend Larry, who faught in the Yom Kippur War, tells me that many Russias and foreign fighters were killed or shot down by the Israelis. 

....sorry to digress...back to work...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.