The future of surplus arms/price spike on ammo

[White Israelite]

No surprise that the prices on ammo are going out of the roof. There are several excuses for the prices going up, some attribute the war in Iraq. I think that there is more to it.

Rising cost of fuel, the economy going down, the cost of metals (brass) going up, countries destroying their surplus because of pressure by the UN.

I just purchased Wolf ammo only 3 weeks ago at 55.97 for 240 rounds, now at the same store it's 67.97. That's a 12 dollar increase. This is stuff from Russia, steel cased, basically the cheapest stuff you can get.

I recently purchased Serbian surplus ammo for sale Prvi Partizan Ammunition 5.56x45 at 7.29 a box, 20 rounds per box. 6 boxes (120 rounds) and I spent 43.74.

Prices are going way up, just for the American stuff, your looking at spending $10.00 a box.

I don't think it's necessarily the arms the leftists are after, they want to break us by making ammo too expensive for civilians to own. Everyone should own at least 2000 rounds of ammo for when SHTF. Save up on ammo, that's what you will need.

These are prices for .223 ammo.

7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 51 will go up in price too.

If you've been to gun shows lately, you may notice that the cost of firearms has gone up as well. Currently in the US market, we are able to buy all kinds of surplus arms but most of these were imported previous to the import bans, they won't last forever. Price of cheap SKS and AK47's will rise as well.

Is the surplus market going to die out in the US? With UN pressure on countries, there may no longer be a surplus market if all the countries are destroying their old military arms and ammunition.

[newman]

Stupid UN!

The UN are actually BUYING surplus rifle & ammo stocks with OUR money!

The dumb part is they're just taking old bolt-actions out of circulation. It does nothing to stop the flow of AK 47s.

All it's achieved on the US homefront is to dry up the supply of cheap Mausers, Nagants, Lee Enfields & their ammo. It's just making shooters buy an M16/AR15 or AK-type rifle for $800 with a credit card instead of $200 cash for an old bolt gun to get cheaper .223 or 7.62x39 ammo.

More 'assault rifles' in private ownership is a good thing for the 2A, so more fool them.

BTW,

Cheap ammo here:

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=18|477

[White Israelite]

Stupid UN!

The UN are actually BUYING surplus rifle & ammo stocks with OUR money!

The dumb part is they're just taking old bolt-actions out of circulation. It does nothing to stop the flow of AK 47s.

All it's achieved on the US homefront is to dry up the supply of cheap Mausers, Nagants, Lee Enfields & their ammo. It's just making shooters buy an M16/AR15 or AK-type rifle for $800 with a credit card instead of $200 cash for an old bolt gun to get cheaper .223 or 7.62x39 ammo.

More 'assault rifles' in private ownership is a good thing for the 2A, so more fool them.

BTW,

Cheap ammo here:

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=18|477

I normally buy from MidwayUSA or sportsmanguide, sometimes cheaperthandirt as well because they don't require ID or anything and the UPS guy just leaves the package on my door.

A lot of people think the Assault Weapon Ban ended, it really didn't. We still can't buy "new" AK47's from overseas, the ones currently sold in the US are either

Preban which was before the import ban, 100 percent surplus.

or Afterban which means it contains a certain amount of American parts in it to comply by Federal law.

The ban originally included Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as:
Norinco, Mitchell, Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); Action Arms I.M.I. UZI and Galil; Beretta AR-70 (SC70); Colt AR-15; Fabrique Nationale FN-FAL/LAR, and FNC; SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; Steyr AUG; Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22; and revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

The anti's hadn't conceived of a loophole that would allow people to purchase the firearms, instead it just increased US business by importing parts kits from the countries and then making the receiver in America under another name instead.

That's how I was able to legally get my Galil, Guatemala imported a bunch of Galils at one point and were selling them off by demilling the receivers and selling the parts kit to the US as "spare parts" and used to build new Galils on US made receiver.

The Anti's are trying to close this loophole now by banning the parts kits or rather banning by features like so called "high cap magazines" and certain features found on military style rifles.

It sucks that this is the only option to get a new rifle is on old beat up parts kits on US receivers but at least we have the option for now. Stock up on spare parts and ammo because we will need them. I will personally be buying at least 4 different parts kits and storing them somewhere.

[newman]

You should look at the Saiga AK sporters.

Made in Russia at the Ishmash factory, chrome-lined barrels, proper AK parts. All for $275-$290 brand new!!

They have 14 of the 922 reg foreign parts. A new US forend (1 part) from Tapco is $60 and US 30 rd mags (3 parts) are $39 ea. That gets you the "10 or less" foreign parts for 922 compliance so high capoacity mags, pistol grips are fine then.

A full-on back to military AKM spec Saiga legal US parts gun is under $800 but The sporter configuration is just as good as is.

[White Israelite]

You should look at the Saiga AK sporters.

Made in Russia at the Ishmash factory, chrome-lined barrels, proper AK parts. All for $275-$290 brand new!!

They have 14 of the 922 reg foreign parts. A new US forend (1 part) from Tapco is $60 and US 30 rd mags (3 parts) are $39 ea. That gets you the "10 or less" foreign parts for 922 compliance so high capoacity mags, pistol grips are fine then.

A full-on back to military AKM spec Saiga legal US parts gun is under $800 but The sporter configuration is just as good as is.

I knew those Saigas were cheap, I wonder what the catch is. I've heard nothing but good stuff about them.

I would personally love an AK pistol as their exempt from 922 (r) (which requires less than a number of foreign parts in the gun to be legal). Only problem is, if you throw a stock on it, it is classed as a "short barrel rifle" and that's a problem. Of course that's not going to stop people from doing it anyways as long as they don't brag about it or pose in pictures with it.

It's amazing to think that if I throw a stock on a Glock pistol that I become a Felon. What a load of garbage.

When I built my Galil, I had to have 5 parts for it to be legal. I had to use non chromelined US barrel by green mountain (which is a peice of [censored] in my opinion), US receiver (by Ohio Rapid Fire, milled just like the original Galil receiver), and Tapco double hook fire control group. Too bad federal law prohibits possession of the original FCG, most parts kits have them anyways but you have to pretty much discard of them if you own the weapon they go to.

[newman]

You should look at the Saiga AK sporters.

Made in Russia at the Ishmash factory, chrome-lined barrels, proper AK parts. All for $275-$290 brand new!!

They have 14 of the 922 reg foreign parts. A new US forend (1 part) from Tapco is $60 and US 30 rd mags (3 parts) are $39 ea. That gets you the "10 or less" foreign parts for 922 compliance so high capoacity mags, pistol grips are fine then.

A full-on back to military AKM spec Saiga legal US parts gun is under $800 but The sporter configuration is just as good as is.

I knew those Saigas were cheap, I wonder what the catch is. I've heard nothing but good stuff about them.

I would personally love an AK pistol as their exempt from 922 (r) (which requires less than a number of foreign parts in the gun to be legal). Only problem is, if you throw a stock on it, it is classed as a "short barrel rifle" and that's a problem. Of course that's not going to stop people from doing it anyways as long as they don't brag about it or pose in pictures with it.

It's amazing to think that if I throw a stock on a Glock pistol that I become a Felon. What a load of garbage.

When I built my Galil, I had to have 5 parts for it to be legal. I had to use non chromelined US barrel by green mountain (which is a peice of excrement in my opinion), US receiver (by Ohio Rapid Fire, milled just like the original Galil receiver), and Tapco double hook fire control group. Too bad federal law prohibits possession of the original FCG, most parts kits have them anyways but you have to pretty much discard of them if you own the weapon they go to.

No catch. They're the best value on the US market by a long shot. Your sense of value is just skewed by silly prices as a result of these dumb 922 regs.

Canadians buy brand new chinese SKS carbines with chrome lined barrels for $149! Americans pay double that for unissued 40 year old Yugo SKSs!!!! $295 for a saiga in .223 or 7.62x39 aint really that cheap.

The Saiga is like a nasty little Russian whore that thay've dressed up as a librarian for immigration purposes. Don't worry............it's a REAL AK. There are .308 verions, too.

http://www.raacfirearms.com/rifles.htm

They have a page with links to their distributors. Atlantic Arms have good stuff!

[greekprince]

Everyone should look into reloading. Also when you go to the range, do not be ashamed to pick up your caliber of choice brass and bag it. Most of the time nobody pays attention and most do not care. I noticed one guy last month shooting a couple of brand new boxes of remington 223. As soon as he left I picked up 140 nice pieces of brass. Gave them to my buddy and he reloaded them for 20 bucks.

[White Israelite]

Everyone should look into reloading. Also when you go to the range, do not be ashamed to pick up your caliber of choice brass and bag it. Most of the time nobody pays attention and most do not care. I noticed one guy last month shooting a couple of brand new boxes of remington 223. As soon as he left I picked up 140 nice pieces of brass. Gave them to my buddy and he reloaded them for 20 bucks.

I think it'll be quite difficult to reload brass that i've shot for my rifle since it dents the hell out of them.

AK47 type rifles are really hard on casings.

[White Israelite]

Back to ammo, some of the Republicans (and so called right wingers) seem to think that it's perfectly acceptable to ban ammunition and guns from China and potential enemies in the middle east. What is your take on this? During the Vietnam war, many soldiers brought back SKS and AK47's as war trophies. I am against banning of any surplus ammunition or rifles.

Oddly, some of the best AK47's were made in China. There was a question however on the safety of some of the ammo, for example, ammunition made in the UAE was crimped so tight that it was causing the ammunition to explode in the gun when fired. I wonder if this was deliberate sabotage.

Technically, all the ammo I order is from the East block, Serbian, Czech, Russian, US has been in talks to end trade with Russia, I wonder if this will affect our ability to purchase Saigas or ammunition made in Russia? Or what's going on with Serbia, I wonder if we will see an end of surplus ammunition coming into the US?

There are definitely pros and cons of surplus ammo, price is one of the big ones, I can buy much more ammunition that is surplussed from overseas than if I were to buy ammunition made in the US.

This has played a pretty big debate on some of the gun forums, some people claiming they refuse to buy ammunition overseas and supporting the ban.

However when it comes down to companies selling ammo to our enemies it does leave me wondering. I know that when Steyr Mannlicher of Austria sold .50 bmg rifles to Iran, there was a ton of controversy and many gun owners said they would boycott Austrian products and Steyr Mannlicher. I'm not so sure we can boycott everything though, if we consider arms, it's just that, a open market. US guns have ended up in enemy hands directly and indirectly, same with Israeli arms, German arms, Russian arms, heck in many cases the Russians were fighting against enemies that they had sold arms to!

I am personally against the regulation of ammo, then again, some of the ammo that is available really makes me wonder....

You know, this is a post I read on THR and it certainly will make you think.

Here's a quote from a book I just read:

… One area of interest in Malaya (1948) was the doubtful practice of using booby-trapped ammunition by the government forces. Although not a new tactic it was fraught with danger because control of the booby-trapped rounds is lost at the point that they are left for the enemy to find.

In Malaya there is evidence that this practice was actively pursued. In Operation Purvey, some 10,000 rounds of .303 were doctored with high explosive. On firing, either from a rifle or a Bren light machine-gun, such a cartridge would detonate, burst the barrel, and kill or severely injure the firer. There was some concern about the legality of such actions, but General Templer, the GOC, dismissed these.

A further 50,000 rounds were ordered which were filled with a thermite incendiary composition. These when fired would simply melt and seal the breaches of the enemy weapons. The advantage of these was that if the enemy discovered the doctored rounds and managed to get them back into the British supply system they would not kill the British troops. The SAS also doctored weapons such as the Lee Enfield rifles, which were left for the communist terrorists (CT) to find.

It wasn't only the SAS that were involved in such activities. Roy Follows joined the Malaya Police and spent much time fighting the CT. In one incident he recorded that he was summoned to the Officer Commanding Special Branch and given a bandolier of .303 ammunition. He looked at it and on being asked what it was stated that it was the normal ball ammunition. He was then told that in fact the rounds had been doctored and the propellant, a low explosive, had been replaced with high explosive. Follows was then told to leave this ammunition where it was probable that the CT were likely to find it. He recorded that, several weeks after he had left the ammunition, there was an ambush by the terrorists in which it was reported that, as they opened fire, there were a number of breach explosions, which resulted in the ambush being abandoned…

(Source: “Malice Aforethought – A History of Bobby Traps from World War One to Vietnam”, Ian Jones, p 225, 226)

I suspect the same practice has been used many times. With all the foreign surplus ammo on the market today, I can't help but wonder if such rounds could be out there somewhere, perhaps at some gun show...

I guess it gives more people a reason to reload?

[newman]

Many auto-loaders can be hard on shells.

Lower pressure rounds (like 6.5x55, 30/30, .303 etc) can be reloaded more often, too.

[TANGO1]

build you own,before the parts are all gone cenerfire had rusty rommies 100 bucks
there not hard to build you can,same with the fal,

suggest look at ak files,ak builder,gunco...............if you guys need tip or anything
don t hessitate,to ask...........now the time,never be dissarmed,
get something militay grade................ak74 ammo still cheap

[newman]

The very last of the 'unissued' Yugo 59/66 sks carbines are available now for between $250 and $290. There are no magazines to buy as they are top-loaded via stripper clips (quicker than changing a mag, btw). These guns are super reliable and more accurate than any AK (they're 1/3 the price of a good AK, or 1/4 the price if you factor the AK price plus 10 magazines).

The 7.62x39 AK ammo for these is still cheap. You can get bulk Wolf ammo in sealed 620 round 'spam cans' for $130-$140 bucks.......... perfect for long term storage or even burying!

[TANGO1]

there are 20 and 30 rounders for the sks.........i own a bunch even hava a 50 rounder..........there also a scope mount for russian scopes..........

[newman]

there are 20 and 30 rounders for the sks.........i own a bunch even hava a 50 rounder..........there also a scope mount for russian scopes..........

Detatchable mags on sks rifles are a waste of time. You lose the C & R status when you do it, make it less portable and probable effect reliability of feed.

Trust me, a 10 round quickly reloaded fixed mag on a pointable, quick firing rifle that hits any man-sized target out to 500 yards is plenty. I'd rather an 8-round M1 Garand with a bandolier of ammo in clips than a 20-round FAL with bulky pouches full of heavy 20 round magazines.
That's all a real rifleman needs.

 Granted, if you live in a big city and may face LA-style riots with multiple armed attackers at close range you may need more close-in fire power. In that case a pump shotgun that can unload 9x .33 cal projectiles (00 Buck) seven times in 5 seconds is a better option. That beats any semi-auto rifle OR SMG!