Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on March 23, 2008, 05:50:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on March 21, 2008, 05:54:28 PM ---Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.
In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.
Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.
--- End quote ---
You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.
--- End quote ---
or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.
I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.
And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.
the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't. Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on March 24, 2008, 02:54:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on March 23, 2008, 05:50:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on March 21, 2008, 05:54:28 PM ---Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.
In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.
Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.
--- End quote ---
You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.
--- End quote ---
or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.
I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.
And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.
the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't. Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.
--- End quote ---
"Rabbi" Steven Weiss head of the Reform movement said the dust line not the labor Zionists
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on March 24, 2008, 02:54:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on March 23, 2008, 05:50:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on March 21, 2008, 05:54:28 PM ---Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.
In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.
Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.
--- End quote ---
You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.
--- End quote ---
or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.
I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.
And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.
the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't. Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.
--- End quote ---
Only because the Jews have allowed it to get that way. The situation can be changed if we change it. And btw, any safety that you in britain or I in the US enjoy is fleeting and can be taken away at any moment. That is the nature of Galuth, no rest for the weary.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on March 24, 2008, 09:48:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on March 24, 2008, 02:54:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on March 23, 2008, 05:50:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on March 21, 2008, 05:54:28 PM ---Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.
In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.
Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.
--- End quote ---
You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.
--- End quote ---
or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.
I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.
And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.
the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't. Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.
--- End quote ---
Only because the Jews have allowed it to get that way. The situation can be changed if we change it. And btw, any safety that you in britain or I in the US enjoy is fleeting and can be taken away at any moment. That is the nature of Galuth, no rest for the weary.
--- End quote ---
[warning, non zionist thoughts follow!] of a secular/common sense variety.
(not religious non zionist ones though... I don`t talk to that guy anymore, he knowingly allowed others to lie and manipulate in the paltalk room, just because they agreed with his position. And he clearly could not answer your RAMBAN claim, and was a sore loser)
I don`t think that the holocaust appeared out of the blue without warning signs.
We don`t have any anti-semitic dictators running for government in britain, like in nazi germany.
Every British government is Tory or Labour, has been for years.
The bulk of the country is concerned not with jews, but with muslims.
Of course, if things change in britain like germany changed, then we are limited in how we can change it. We can only leave. That`s not a bad situation.
Jews got through the holocaust by moving from dangerous land to safe land such as america or britain or israel.
In Israel, I suppose many jews are trapped..
Whereas as britain is a member of the EU, we can go anywhere in europe.
(and there is that gemara in ketuvot around 111A, that if you go to israel you are not meant to leave)
MassuhDGoodName:
Re: "...the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't. Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..."
At its essence, Zionism is the Jewish Movement for National Liberation.
As such, it's purpose was not to move somewhere where there were no Nazis...Zionism preceded the development of Nazism by approximately 70 years.
It's purpose was to restore the Jew in his own Land, and in so doing resurrect the Jew as an independent and sovereign people determining their own destiny, fighting their own wars, laboring as farmers, fishermen, military generals, bus drivers, and yes...even pickpockets and prostitutes arrested by Jewish policemen and incarcerated in Jewish jails; to end once and for all the "Jew of the ghetto" and end "the Jew of the Yeshivah who believes that 'good Jews don't fight'".
As a result of the oppression, persecution, and second class status of the Jew in European history, Zionism formed its core philosophies around those of Socialism, which was a rejection of traditional monarchy/church social inequity, was at the time of Zionism's origins a truly "progressive" ideology, and was viewed by European Jewish youth as a new force which promised 'a better way of life' for Jews than could be expected by remaining in Christian Europe obsessed with Imperialist adventures and Colonial exploitations of Asian and African peoples.
To a great extent it has succeeded beyond its wildest expectations: The ancient Jewish Homeland is reborn a lush garden of beauty where was once an abandoned and barren land. Jewish Generals of the IDF command Jewish Brigades comprised of Jews who ended their long 2,000 year Exile from every corner of the globe by making aliyah to Eretz Yisrael. Jewish agriculturalists have turned the desolate swamps into hothouses, fields full of every vegetable and grain, with advanced scientfic irrigation. Jewish busdrivers pick up Jewish workers and laborers and drive them into Jewish metropolitan cities, as well as to the eternal capitol city Jerusalem. Jewish fighter jets emblazoned with the blue Magen David defend the Jewish Nation.
Zionist shortcomings? Too many to even start listing them.
Jews are now safer and better off than they were in Europe and the USSR? Without question, yes.
And all of these accomplishments in only 60 years, during which five major wars have been fought against a numerically advantaged enemy!
It is what it is...just like every other country...full of contradictions, disappointments, corruption, problems, as well as much that is beautiful and worthwhile.
Oh yes, forgot to mention...The Jews took their 5000 year old language Hebrew, removed it from the liturgical bookshelf, and revived it as a strong, living, and vital language....Modern Hebrew.
We all know what needs to be done next, but I thought that a post like this might serve to revive our spirits and optimism...The Jewish People are a living Miracle...the envy and the wonder of the entire world!...We live and refuse to perish...Every Empire and nation has fallen...while Israel lives. We should all count our many blessings and praise G-d for what He has done with us!
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