Author Topic: Dumb Question  (Read 3410 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline horselady

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • "I support the troops" is never followed by "but"
Dumb Question
« on: March 28, 2008, 01:12:39 AM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2557
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 01:22:19 AM »
Its a good question and many people have different opinions. Such as I am classed as unrighteous by some and then others not.

I think it matters little that mere man uses this to class people they don't really know, only G-d has that right.

newman

  • Guest
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 01:25:12 AM »
I believe most Jews are righteous, even if they're not religious. There are virtually zero Jews in jail. The handfull that are are there for for white collar/ administrative type crimes. There are some downright evil Jews like shipiro, chomsky etc.

Remember..............." Jews are people like verybody else, only 'more so' ".

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 07:19:17 AM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Ulli

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10946
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 07:29:36 AM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I like the explanation. There are many steps between good and evil. :)
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 07:34:40 AM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I like the explanation. There are many steps between good and evil. :)

Some will say that there is no gray..just good and then evil and everythign that is grey is evil...I personally don't subscribe to that point of view entirely, and it really depends.

Gravity is not righteous nor evil because on the one hand, it keeps us grounded, but on the other hand, can cause us to fall and really hurt ourselves.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline horselady

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • "I support the troops" is never followed by "but"
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2008, 08:53:31 PM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

That's an interesting analogy, though it seems that this would make one a Righteous person of any faith.
I want to know who is a Righteous Jew and who isn't? Does it have anything to do with how religious you are?
I am not a religious Jew at all, but I am a Jew, so does that make me not righteous?

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2008, 09:20:57 PM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

That's an interesting analogy, though it seems that this would make one a Righteous person of any faith.
I want to know who is a Righteous Jew and who isn't? Does it have anything to do with how religious you are?
I am not a religious Jew at all, but I am a Jew, so does that make me not righteous?


In my opinion it applies in the same ways.  Just because one is religious doesn't mean anything unless they are righteous to others as described above.  Therefore a righteous Jew does the right thing for others.  If he/she does the mitzvot in the proper manner and in proper way and with proper intentions, then he/she is doing what a Jew is supposed to do.  Just like exercising and eating a healthy diet.  Doing Mitzvot is the same sort of thing...it's good for you.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2008, 10:56:10 PM »
In general, "righteous Jew" means ME!

As opposed to all the rest of the riff-raff here!   :::D

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 11:07:36 PM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabb-t, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline horselady

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • "I support the troops" is never followed by "but"
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 11:28:40 PM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabbat, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.


How about one out of three? Can I qualify?  :-\

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 03:45:52 PM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabbat, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.


How about one out of three? Can I qualify?  :-\
Let me guess Belief in G-d? In all seriousness, at least start now. Make your baby steps at least, learn Torah, make Tishuva, it is possible, yearn for becoming closer to G-d, and fullfilling His will. Tishuva is great and possible as long as a Jew is alive. Learn Torah (a set time every day and get the spark of fire which can correct every wrong doing, and depending on the way you make Tishuva, you can even transform the sins into Mitzvot. But dont say okay, tomm, it allways has to be NOW.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Ben Yehuda

  • Director Of Marketing
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 04:09:57 PM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I also like your interpretation.

There's plenty of people we, as Jews, have to fight; do we have to fight well-meaning Jews who perhaps are not strong enough to follow every rule. Also if one is using one's "righteousness" to feel a superiority over others, is this righteous? It seems to me that one should follow the rules for one's belief in G-d, a personal relationship; there is no need to show everyone how pious one is. Anyway just an opinion from a Jew that is no Torah scholar by a long shot.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2008, 07:33:32 PM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I also like your interpretation.

There's plenty of people we, as Jews, have to fight; do we have to fight well-meaning Jews who perhaps are not strong enough to follow every rule. Also if one is using one's "righteousness" to feel a superiority over others, is this righteous? It seems to me that one should follow the rules for one's belief in G-d, a personal relationship; there is no need to show everyone how pious one is. Anyway just an opinion from a Jew that is no Torah scholar by a long shot.


one should be righteous but not for a reward...i mean, fine, the reward of feeling good about yourself is one thing...but being righteous shoudl be done because it's good for you...like eating tomotoes to stave off cancer.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2008, 07:59:08 PM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I also like your interpretation.

There's plenty of people we, as Jews, have to fight; do we have to fight well-meaning Jews who perhaps are not strong enough to follow every rule. Also if one is using one's "righteousness" to feel a superiority over others, is this righteous? It seems to me that one should follow the rules for one's belief in G-d, a personal relationship; there is no need to show everyone how pious one is. Anyway just an opinion from a Jew that is no Torah scholar by a long shot.


one should be righteous but not for a reward...i mean, fine, the reward of feeling good about yourself is one thing...but being righteous shoudl be done because it's good for you...like eating tomotoes to stave off cancer.

 Actually what you stated is = to each other.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2008, 11:14:01 PM »
In general people are probably referring to Jews that are supportive of Israel and proud to be Jewish
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline horselady

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
  • "I support the troops" is never followed by "but"
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2008, 11:43:02 PM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabbat, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.


How about one out of three? Can I qualify?  :-\
Let me guess Belief in G-d? In all seriousness, at least start now. Make your baby steps at least, learn Torah, make Tishuva, it is possible, yearn for becoming closer to G-d, and fullfilling His will. Tishuva is great and possible as long as a Jew is alive. Learn Torah (a set time every day and get the spark of fire which can correct every wrong doing, and depending on the way you make Tishuva, you can even transform the sins into Mitzvot. But dont say okay, tomm, it allways has to be NOW.

Yes, that's the one. But I'd be lying if I said I could do all the other stuff. As I said earlier, I am probably what you'd consider
a bad Jew. I don't even go to synagogue twice a year as my family did when I was growing up. My life is too consumed with
family, work, and horses and many things that leave no time for such a worthy endeavor. I can speak and read Japanese but I don't
think I could learn Hebrew at this point. There's no one in my family with whom I could discuss this and my husband is only
half Jewish (albeit on his mother's side).

I am proud to be a Jew and am a strong supporter of Israel but that's about it. I once met a Hassid who said I wasn't really
a Jew because I am not observant. Maybe that attitude is why so many non-orthodox Jews turn away from the religion?

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2008, 01:23:33 AM »

I've noticed that people here talk about Righteous Jews a lot but I'm afraid to say
I don't really know what that means. I know what righteous means but is there
more to the interpretation that I may be missing?

I assume that Reform Jews are not considered Righteous but are others not
considered that too? And what makes one Jew Righteous and another not?

Or are all Jews Righteous?

Sorry to be an ignorant Jew here.

You see an old lady needing assistance the following can be done:


1. Beat her up:  Evil
2. Help her across the street then demand a payment for helping her:  Not so righteous and not that evil, but eh, not right...
3. You notice her, but do not help her: Not righteous; evil if it is raining. Just not nice.
4. You do not notice her and therefore can't help her, or you noticed her, but somebody got there before you, and you would have helped her: Probably more righteous
5. Help her across the street and continue with your day with a feeling a well being:  Righteous



So, a righteous person is someone who does the right thing, really without asking for a reward (from Gd or other people), for the merit of doing the right thing.  And it feels good to him/her.

Ok, some people do the right thing so that they can get into heaven or so that it will hasten the coming of the messiah. Fine..some believe with perfect faith these things and I respect that..if that is what gets them through the day and treat others well. My fear, with SOME of them is that if things don't go their way their whole life without these rewards, they might get disappointed and then do evil things because the righteous thing brought no reward, and therefore, their crazy logic will say that the evil thing will not bring punishment.

And, finally, an evil person, does the opposite which is right. And he does it because it feels good and doesn't care what it does to him or the other person.

So if you think in this manner by the way people act, you can have an idea of the action someone does as evil or righteous.  Sometimes, it blurs a little, and that's where I would ask more questions.

My point of view of who is a righteous Jew and who isn't, is not based on whether they are secular, reform, conservative, orthodox etc etc.  JTF hold some point of views which I disagree with in certain regards, but it's interesting to learn how they go about their claims with certain things.

I also like your interpretation.

There's plenty of people we, as Jews, have to fight; do we have to fight well-meaning Jews who perhaps are not strong enough to follow every rule. Also if one is using one's "righteousness" to feel a superiority over others, is this righteous? It seems to me that one should follow the rules for one's belief in G-d, a personal relationship; there is no need to show everyone how pious one is. Anyway just an opinion from a Jew that is no Torah scholar by a long shot.


one should be righteous but not for a reward...i mean, fine, the reward of feeling good about yourself is one thing...but being righteous shoudl be done because it's good for you...like eating tomotoes to stave off cancer.

 Actually what you stated is = to each other.

I dont' udnerstand...you mean that being righteous is the reward that makes you feel good about yourself and EACH OTHER?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2008, 01:25:23 AM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabbat, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.


How about one out of three? Can I qualify?  :-\
Let me guess Belief in G-d? In all seriousness, at least start now. Make your baby steps at least, learn Torah, make Tishuva, it is possible, yearn for becoming closer to G-d, and fullfilling His will. Tishuva is great and possible as long as a Jew is alive. Learn Torah (a set time every day and get the spark of fire which can correct every wrong doing, and depending on the way you make Tishuva, you can even transform the sins into Mitzvot. But dont say okay, tomm, it allways has to be NOW.

Yes, that's the one. But I'd be lying if I said I could do all the other stuff. As I said earlier, I am probably what you'd consider
a bad Jew. I don't even go to synagogue twice a year as my family did when I was growing up. My life is too consumed with
family, work, and horses and many things that leave no time for such a worthy endeavor. I can speak and read Japanese but I don't
think I could learn Hebrew at this point. There's no one in my family with whom I could discuss this and my husband is only
half Jewish (albeit on his mother's side).

I am proud to be a Jew and am a strong supporter of Israel but that's about it. I once met a Hassid who said I wasn't really
a Jew because I am not observant. Maybe that attitude is why so many non-orthodox Jews turn away from the religion?

You're a bad Jew if slap an old lady around that you were supposed to help cross the street.  Actually, you would be a downright rotton person for doing such a thing Jew or no Jew.

There are a lot of Jews who do much less than you..i don't do half the things that Orthodox Jews do.  However, it doesn't necessarily make you a bad Jew.  It just means that you are a non-observant Jew.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Dumb Question
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2008, 02:44:49 PM »
It could mean in different forms. Sometimes the judgments put on as rightious and sometimes the other side (G-d forbid). Each moment lasts forever (unless its bad and you do real Tishuva, or its good and you regret it, G-d forbid). Sometimes one can be under the "wicked" classification at that moment, or sometimes under the "Tzaddik" classification.  - That is one way of looking at it.
  - Another way is the majority of ones action during a year lets say.
  - Another is the majority of ones lifetime.

 (the first - also connected to the 24 (hourly) Denim Judgements of a person)
  (second- Rosh Hashana)
   (Third- Judgement at the grave, and their is actually more, which is after the Ressurrection which is the strictest of them all, where even the great Prophet Shamuel (who was like Moshe and Aron combined in his generation) was frightened about it, where he thought that the time had come at a certain time in his life. 

 From another way at least in our terminology a rightious Jew or better yet, someone we can call a Kosher Jew should be one who at least keeps the Shabbat, Kosher, belief in G-d. (this is the very very bear minimum, but at our generation is good enough.


How about one out of three? Can I qualify?  :-\
Let me guess Belief in G-d? In all seriousness, at least start now. Make your baby steps at least, learn Torah, make Tishuva, it is possible, yearn for becoming closer to G-d, and fullfilling His will. Tishuva is great and possible as long as a Jew is alive. Learn Torah (a set time every day and get the spark of fire which can correct every wrong doing, and depending on the way you make Tishuva, you can even transform the sins into Mitzvot. But dont say okay, tomm, it allways has to be NOW.

Yes, that's the one. But I'd be lying if I said I could do all the other stuff. As I said earlier, I am probably what you'd consider
a bad Jew. I don't even go to synagogue twice a year as my family did when I was growing up. My life is too consumed with
family, work, and horses and many things that leave no time for such a worthy endeavor. I can speak and read Japanese but I don't
think I could learn Hebrew at this point. There's no one in my family with whom I could discuss this and my husband is only
half Jewish (albeit on his mother's side).

I am proud to be a Jew and am a strong supporter of Israel but that's about it. I once met a Hassid who said I wasn't really
a Jew because I am not observant. Maybe that attitude is why so many non-orthodox Jews turn away from the religion?

 Dont fell soo bad about yourself. You do not need to know Hebrew. But you should make some effort in learning Torah daily. If you dont have 10 hours a day to learn Torah then go for a few hours. If you feel you cant then at least make some time every day (even 15 minutes but be consistent), and a little extra on Shbba-t to learn Torah. You can learn online (but not Shabb-t, and Yom Tov)- I can give you many many different places you can learn, and you can get very good books that are available in English or other languages that you know.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/