Poll

Should it be banned?

Yes.
5 (9.1%)
Yes, absolutely.
8 (14.5%)
No.
42 (76.4%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Author Topic: What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?  (Read 155415 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Dan

  • Moderator
  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 4308
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 10:56:17 AM »
What do you mean by touching?!
 How are you going to enforce such laws?
I think we should forcus on REAL issues, let's not worry about things of this nature at this point... I mean that in a nice way.  :)

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10644
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 11:21:00 AM »
A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?



That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.

Online Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12560
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 11:22:49 AM »
A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?



That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.

I see religious orthodox women from Monroe NY for dental work...I know that i have no choice to touch their mouths as i work on them..however, I'm still careful as i place the paper napkin on them not to touch them..

But i do it out of respect...no other reason.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18231
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2008, 11:37:57 AM »
I've heard horrible stories from the Muslim world about how women can not get needed medical care because their husbands refuse to let them see a male doctor (these women definitely don't get gynecological care, breast exams, or pap smears, because their husbands won't let them go to a male doctor for these things). Female doctors in the Muslim world are almost unheard of, although some exist. So if women have a medical problem that needs to be treated they often have to suffer in pain in silence.

Imagine having a cavity and having it cause you pain day after day, with no way to get help because there are no female dentists. Imagine the tooth rotting and being unable to eat on that side, and waking up every day to pain until the tooth just rotted and died.

In a medical situation it may be impossible to know whether the needed medical treatment is something minor or something that may save a life. An itchy mole could be benign or cancerous, for example.

And what's wrong, in a business situation, such as two CEOs meeting, with them shaking hands? Are they going to jump on each other in the boardroom in front of other workers in a business meeting?

Doing things like this would restrict women's power in the business world.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:40:07 AM by Rubystars »

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10644
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 11:49:53 AM »
I am against banning contact and I think it should be a personal choice and a legal ban would be intrusive to the personal freedom.

Personally I'd rather that the habit of handshakes would die out because to me it seems like a perfect way to exchange viruses and other pathogens between individuals. I think we should replace it with a non-contact gesture.

Unfortunately it seems that things are heading the other way at list here in Israel, it becomes increasingly customary for man and woman, woman and woman and even two man to hug and kiss in social circumstances (Did you see Smolmert kissing W ?).

« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 12:04:18 PM by zelhar »

Offline Americanhero1

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7617
  • I ain't going anywhere
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 11:58:13 AM »
I am against banning contact and I think it should be a personal choice and a legal ban would be intrusive to the personal freedom.

Personally I'd rather that the habit of handshakes would die out because to me it seems like a perfect way to exchange viruses and other pathogens between individuals. I think we should replace it with a non-contact gesture.

Unfortunately it seems that things are heading the other way at list here in Israel, it becomes increasingly customary for man and woman, woman and woman and even two man to hug and kiss in social circumstances (Did you see Smolmert kissing W ?).
They do that in Europe they shake hands and kiss both cheeks

Online Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12560
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 12:02:40 PM »
I've heard horrible stories from the Muslim world about how women can not get needed medical care because their husbands refuse to let them see a male doctor (these women definitely don't get gynecological care, breast exams, or pap smears, because their husbands won't let them go to a male doctor for these things). Female doctors in the Muslim world are almost unheard of, although some exist. So if women have a medical problem that needs to be treated they often have to suffer in pain in silence.

Imagine having a cavity and having it cause you pain day after day, with no way to get help because there are no female dentists. Imagine the tooth rotting and being unable to eat on that side, and waking up every day to pain until the tooth just rotted and died.

In a medical situation it may be impossible to know whether the needed medical treatment is something minor or something that may save a life. An itchy mole could be benign or cancerous, for example.

And what's wrong, in a business situation, such as two CEOs meeting, with them shaking hands? Are they going to jump on each other in the boardroom in front of other workers in a business meeting?

Doing things like this would restrict women's power in the business world.


actually it's a good thing that Muslim countries do that to women...now they can't have kids and therefore fewer people to hate us and wish death up on us..I say..I hope Muslims continue implementing these silly koranic rules until they all disappear..or till someone gets smart and changes the whole religion so that there is finally peace in this world.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline MasterWolf1

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8766
  • RESIST NOW!!!
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 12:05:49 PM »
No, not at all, I don't see whats wrong with hand shaking or any form of effection.  If you have compossure and not a beast then you shouldn't worry about things like this.  I shake hands of women all the time, I grew basically on the beach, if you are a responsible adult, if you are someone who has a concious then these things would not be a factor to you.  I am not married and I take the vows of marriage seriously but if I meet some of my friends and some happen to be females we give a hug and kiss in the cheek doesn't mean we are hoping in the sack.
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 12:16:25 PM »
Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions.  These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage?  To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction.  Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad.  Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night.  Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity.  I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 12:26:21 PM »
A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?



That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.
Thank You for answering my question.
The person drawing Mord's blood would have thought him batty  :D if he asked not to be touched.

I think if people choose not to engage in pre-marital touching - their choice should be respected.
I don't think it could be banned.

Come to think of it...if the young people today engaged in a little less pre-marital touching we would have less unwanted pregnancies and people with STDs.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Maimonides

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
  • The Greatest Jewish Sage
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 12:31:23 PM »
People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.


Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.

JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.

The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.

Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes”- Maimonides

Offline Scriabin

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2008, 12:42:14 PM »
I agree with Mills.  This is a religeous Jewish question.

Perhaps Yacov could have rephrased his question. 

The word 'ban' is strong, yet vague.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2008, 12:52:21 PM »
People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.


Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.

JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.

The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.

Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!

Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18231
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2008, 12:53:39 PM »
Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions.  These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage?  To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction.  Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad.  Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night.  Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity.  I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)

I believe in waiting until marriage to have sex. I believe premarital sex is sinful. I also think it's sinful to lust after someone and imagine doing things to them in your mind even if you don't touch them.  I just don't equate that to shaking hands with a business partner or brushing against someone in a crowd or a medical exam.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2008, 12:57:09 PM »
No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2008, 12:57:53 PM »
No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D

He was pro gun too.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2008, 12:59:13 PM »
Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions.  These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage?  To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction.  Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad.  Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night.  Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity.  I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)

I believe in waiting until marriage to have sex. I believe premarital sex is sinful. I also think it's sinful to lust after someone and imagine doing things to them in your mind even if you don't touch them.  I just don't equate that to shaking hands with a business partner or brushing against someone in a crowd or a medical exam.

Yep, but the way our society is advancing, handshaking will be equivalent to a one night stand pretty much. Pretty sad.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2008, 01:08:28 PM »
No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D

He was pro gun too.
So where all the founders O0
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 01:11:09 PM »
Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)

 Isn't he Jewish and you are not?  ???
 Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Online Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12560
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2008, 01:23:31 PM »
Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions.  These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage?  To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction.  Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad.  Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night.  Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity.  I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)

i totally agree...this should be  a reason for all good and decent people to do the right thing even when it comes down to making physical contact with the opposite sex.

I personally, unless a female's hand is offered to me (that is a total stranger), give a little bow...really out of respect.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Online Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12560
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2008, 01:25:01 PM »
Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)

 Isn't he Jewish and you are not?  ???
 Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.

no paulette is jewish i'm pretty sure of it..am i right?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2008, 02:18:43 PM »
I dont know if we would be able to contol outright banning right away, but it should definitly be in the atmosphere that such behavior is wrong and those who do soo should be put to shame. And that not only goes for the kids but also the parents (expecially of girls) who let their daughters go around on the streets not dressed properly, and the parents or guardians not knowing where and who she is with. 
 The most important thing is to set the right culture and way of thinking, through "Washing the brain" aka brainwashing, from all the filth that the Jewish Neshama might have contracted from the media and others.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18231
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2008, 02:20:48 PM »
It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.



I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.

What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10644
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 02:48:37 PM »
It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.



I don't think man get sexual enjoyment from hand shakes (with the possible exception of some weird fetishes), and if they do get sexual pleasure then they get it even more so from looking and hearing a woman, so men simply better behave themselves and if they can't their place is in the Zoo.

Moreover if you wouldn't shake the hand of attractive women I think you should avoid it altogether because otherwise you would be implicitly calling some woman unattractive and that might hurt them.

Offline Maimonides

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
  • The Greatest Jewish Sage
Re: Should male-female pre-marital touching be banned?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 03:08:25 PM »
People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.


Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.

JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.

The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.

Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!

Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html

Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.

He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.

He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.

Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.



“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes”- Maimonides