how an old earth does not contradict the torah, and even has some support

[DownwithIslam]

Lets not forget that we are discussing fellow jews, and extremely righteous ones at that. We can't go wrong being extra careful with our words towards them.

[Lubab]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

[q_q_]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

[DownwithIslam]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

No, their are not thousands of candidates. Only the Lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled them all such as bringing jews closer to judaism. While other rabbeim fulfilled some of the req, none fulfilled as many as the lubavitcher rebbe.

[q_q_]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

No, their are not thousands of candidates. Only the Lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled them all such as bringing jews closer to judaism. While other rabbeim fulfilled some of the req, none fulfilled as many as the lubavitcher rebbe.

The RAMBAM himself brought many jews back to judaism. And he wasn't killed. So you can presume he the messiah too.

Moshe Rabbeinu too.

We have alot of candidates here.

[DownwithIslam]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

No, their are not thousands of candidates. Only the Lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled them all such as bringing jews closer to judaism. While other rabbeim fulfilled some of the req, none fulfilled as many as the lubavitcher rebbe.

The RAMBAM himself brought many jews back to judaism. And he wasn't killed. So you can presume he the messiah too.

Moshe Rabbeinu too.

We have alot of candidates here.

But why are you so strong in your beliefs that he is not the Moshiach? Even according to your theory that their are "many candidates," the Lubavitcher Rebbe is one of them so it is possible he is the moshiach.

[q_q_]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

No, their are not thousands of candidates. Only the Lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled them all such as bringing jews closer to judaism. While other rabbeim fulfilled some of the req, none fulfilled as many as the lubavitcher rebbe.

The RAMBAM himself brought many jews back to judaism. And he wasn't killed. So you can presume he the messiah too.

Moshe Rabbeinu too.

We have alot of candidates here.

But why are you so strong in your beliefs that he is not the Moshiach? Even according to your theory that their are "many candidates," the Lubavitcher Rebbe is one of them so it is possible he is the moshiach.

That is not my theory at all. That is just me demonstrating the ludicrousness of this suggested interpretation

I do not think that the RAMBAM had in his mind that people should presume that he is the messiah.

[DownwithIslam]

I don't think we will convince you nor will you convince us. Lets just forget this debate for the good of the organization.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

But you're separating them into concepts:  Presumed Moshiach and an actual moshiach, who presumed moshiach may or may not be... But once we receive evidence otherwise (such as, the Rebbe's death, not to mention that he was childless, among many other things he did not fulfill in his lifetime), it is no longer honest to still presume him Moshiach! 
Also I haven't read this Rambam, but can you show me that the Rambam truly separated into two sets of requirements?


And by this criteria of going solely by chezkat moschiach's criteria (assuming that that is truly a distinction, but I have asked for proof of this), which doesn't include building the beit hamikdash, how can I exclude the Maharal or Rashi?  Or any number of other great rabbis who brought the Jews closer to Judaism?

[q_q_]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

But you're separating them into concepts:  Presumed Moshiach and an actual moshiach, who presumed moshiach may or may not be... But once we receive evidence otherwise (such as, the Rebbe's death, not to mention that he was childless, among many other things he did not fulfill in his lifetime), it is no longer honest to still presume him Moshiach! 
Also I haven't read this Rambam, but can you show me that the Rambam truly separated into two sets of requirements?


And by this criteria of going solely by chezkat moschiach's criteria (assuming that that is truly a distinction, but I have asked for proof of this), which doesn't include building the beit hamikdash, how can I exclude the Maharal or Rashi?  Or any number of other great rabbis who brought the Jews closer to Judaism?

see my post. Yes, he splits them.

see my post,  you just repeated my post about presuming dozens of other rabbis.

see my post, this is not the basis ..

see my post, rambam does split the requirements.
RAMBAM says that if somebody fights the wars of G-d then we may presume(assume for the moment) that he is moshiach, and if he fulfills the full requirements, then we know he is. But if he is killed, then we know he isn't.

Clearly none of these rabbis faught the wars of G-d. 

But even if one pretends that the RAMBAM meant spiritual wars. Then as I said..

Look..  You are just repeating what I said, but in a less skilled way. This is ridiculous. Why do you do that?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is ridiculous. Why do you do that?

a.  I was responding to Lubab.   not to qq or anyone else.

b.  I don't know that what you say is necessarily true.  I was asking Lubab to show me from the source if he disagreed.   You did not say in your post that Rambam split the requirements either! .  You do say it this time, but really I asked Lubab for proof, which you do not show.  But your explanation here vis a vis "presumed and actual" makes sense.  The intial statement from Lubab I didn't understand.

c.  I did repeat your point about the other rabbis who could fit Lubab's criteria.  I guess this was a mistake.   Try to calm down.

[q_q_]

well maybe somebody can type out the beginning of the relevant chapter from hilchot melachim for you.
or you can accept that it says about presuming, and knowing for sure.

Lulab gave a source - hilchot melachim.  It's not a big book. I would say , probably chapter 10 is where it is.

But to back up what he said any more than a book name, he'd have to quote a whole chapter. And it's not reasonable for you to just expect somebody to type out a whole chapter.

But since rabbi kahane referred to it a few times, it's worth buying. I have one published by moznaim, but for some reason I can't find it.. I looked earlier.

Anyhow, the fact about presuming and knowing for sure, do not change the demonstrated ridiculousness of this interpretation .  which is just wrong on so many levels. Firstly, that it's not even the basis of them saying the L rebbe is the messiah anyway. The basis is either mad speculation, or chabad texts. But not the RAMBAM.

They might try to show that it doesn't contradict the RAMBAM..  Which is still ludricrous. But logically, this is no basis for them proving anything from the RAMBAM.  So  even if they could show, without being ludricous, that it didn't contradict the RAMBAM, then it's still really not irrelevant.

I can wear underpants on my head, that doesn't contradict the RAMBAM. And it doesn't make a nonsense out of the RAMBAM either! Or make any ludricous interpretation. It just doesn't contradict him. So just having something that doesn't contradict, is not relevant.

[DownwithIslam]

well maybe somebody can type out the beginning of the relevant chapter from hilchot melachim for you.
or you can accept that it says about presuming, and knowing for sure.

Lulab gave a source - hilchot melachim.  It's not a big book. I would say , probably chapter 10 is where it is.

But to back up what he said any more than a book name, he'd have to quote a whole chapter. And it's not reasonable for you to just expect somebody to type out a whole chapter.

But since rabbi kahane referred to it a few times, it's worth buying. I have one published by moznaim, but for some reason I can't find it.. I looked earlier.

Anyhow, the fact about presuming and knowing for sure, do not change the demonstrated ridiculousness of this interpretation .  which is just wrong on so many levels. Firstly, that it's not even the basis of them saying the L rebbe is the messiah anyway. The basis is either mad speculation, or chabad texts. But not the RAMBAM.

They might try to show that it doesn't contradict the RAMBAM..  Which is still ludricrous. But logically, this is no basis for them proving anything from the RAMBAM.  So  even if they could show, without being ludricous, that it didn't contradict the RAMBAM, then it's still really not irrelevant.

I can wear underpants on my head, that doesn't contradict the RAMBAM. And it doesn't make a nonsense out of the RAMBAM either! Or make any ludricous interpretation. It just doesn't contradict him. So just having something that doesn't contradict, is not relevant.

Why such SINA?

[q_q_]

well maybe somebody can type out the beginning of the relevant chapter from hilchot melachim for you.
or you can accept that it says about presuming, and knowing for sure.
<snip>

furthermore. even if they did, it doesn't make the case lulab wants, because of the ludricous implications demonstrated. And because anybody with any sense that doesn't read into the text, knows that fighting the wars of G-d, means fighting wars. Not spiritual wars sending out mitzva mobiles.

And as mentioned, if anybody faught spiritual wars, it was the RAMBAM himself.  But it would be absurd to think that he or anybody else presumed himself to be moshiach.

[q_q_]

Ignore DWI.  And then he will not succeed in his goal of stopping all torah discussion. He talks about hatred against others, but the only possible hatred is a growing one towards him.

Don't worry. I am sure that Chaim will not ban discussion that is in a thread like this as DWI wants

Do ignore him when you choose to address whatever you address next

[DownwithIslam]

Ignore DWI.  And then he will not succeed in his goal of stopping all torah discussion. He talks about hatred against others, but the only possible hatred is a growing one towards him.

Don't worry. I am sure that Chaim will not ban discussion that is in a thread like this as DWI wants

Do ignore him when you choose to address whatever you address next

Again, you are demonstrating why you are a SONE YISRAEL as well as a fool. You cover your hatred of lubavitch under a "Torah discussion" guise.

I wish you would speak with respect when its Lubavitch you are talking about.

[DownwithIslam]

I don't think Q_Q is a troll as I know he has defended JTF against the puppy mill/biscuit feeder forum attacks and that is praiseworthy. With that aside, I can't really agree with Q_Q in any Torah based discussion as I know that you have expressed strong anti Lubavitch sentiment. To express hatred towards the one jewish group that really and sincerely loves every jew is beyond me and unforgivable. This is why I have to be skeptical of your Torah interpretations. I do not think you are a troll and I think we need to work together for the benefit of the cause but I have to say that I do not agree with you here or on the other issues.

Since nobody seems to have anything intelligent to say on the subject of the thread.

You are welcome to hijack this thread to make your claim. But QUOTE ME


I am quite lubavitch friendly.

And I know that there was a thread quite recently where Lulab made a post, which Tzvi -rightly- criticised.   You criticised Tzvi. And I said Tzvi was Right for criticising that post.  The post, and later the thread, revolved around the Moshichist issue within lubavitch, and the more extreme position of those that believe he never died.   These ideas should  at least be understood as controversial, and not mainstream.   They may be brought up in intellectual debate(IMO, despite the dangers to lurking ignoramouses).   But they should not be presented -in any form-, to a newcomer who is ignorant and asking for help. 
(And that is what Tzvi criticised.  And I would and did defend Tzvi criticising that)


And the fact that you don't see that, shows that you have something clouding your judgement. Maybe you think that lubavitch is a holy cow and no element of it can be criticised in any way. Maybe a person reading it wouldn't know what was going on, but I don't think you are naiive, or stupid. Maybe you had such hatred of Tzvi, that you are convinced his post was anti all lubavitch. And when I defended tzvi, you say I am against lubavitch. Whatever the psychology behind your poor judgement is. I have described the situation, see above paragraph, about the post and the moshichist and worse issue. And that was what the Tzvi's post was all about. And it's not anti lubavitch to defend that. Though you thought it was then, and clearly still do.

nothing intelligent to say?!  Who do you think you are?!  You are so high and mighty that you have a right to say that when one wants to give an opinion on something they are dumb?!

I agree with you Dr. Dan. Q_Q is an overall belligerent person who always pretents to be having a torah discussion when he is in fact attacking righteous Jews. Why the hell he would dedicate so much time to harassing lubavitch is beyond me. It is not my forum though so I would hope Chaim could step in and set the record straight.

[q_q_]

I don't think Q_Q is a troll as I know he has defended JTF against the puppy mill/biscuit feeder forum attacks and that is praiseworthy. With that aside, I can't really agree with Q_Q in any Torah based discussion as I know that you have expressed strong anti Lubavitch sentiment. To express hatred towards the one jewish group that really and sincerely loves every jew is beyond me and unforgivable. This is why I have to be skeptical of your Torah interpretations. I do not think you are a troll and I think we need to work together for the benefit of the cause but I have to say that I do not agree with you here or on the other issues.

Since nobody seems to have anything intelligent to say on the subject of the thread.

You are welcome to hijack this thread to make your claim. But QUOTE ME


I am quite lubavitch friendly.

And I know that there was a thread quite recently where Lulab made a post, which Tzvi -rightly- criticised.   You criticised Tzvi. And I said Tzvi was Right for criticising that post.  The post, and later the thread, revolved around the Moshichist issue within lubavitch, and the more extreme position of those that believe he never died.   These ideas should  at least be understood as controversial, and not mainstream.   They may be brought up in intellectual debate(IMO, despite the dangers to lurking ignoramouses).   But they should not be presented -in any form-, to a newcomer who is ignorant and asking for help. 
(And that is what Tzvi criticised.  And I would and did defend Tzvi criticising that)


And the fact that you don't see that, shows that you have something clouding your judgement. Maybe you think that lubavitch is a holy cow and no element of it can be criticised in any way. Maybe a person reading it wouldn't know what was going on, but I don't think you are naiive, or stupid. Maybe you had such hatred of Tzvi, that you are convinced his post was anti all lubavitch. And when I defended tzvi, you say I am against lubavitch. Whatever the psychology behind your poor judgement is. I have described the situation, see above paragraph, about the post and the moshichist and worse issue. And that was what the Tzvi's post was all about. And it's not anti lubavitch to defend that. Though you thought it was then, and clearly still do.

nothing intelligent to say?!  Who do you think you are?!  You are so high and mighty that you have a right to say that when one wants to give an opinion on something they are dumb?!

if you look at the position in the thread where I posted that, then search up for anything Torah based, you would be hard pressed to find anything after you made your non torah comment (second post).

Since then there has been some Torah discussion.
We(doesn't include you) have managed to squeeze in some Torah discussion, between the nonsense that DWI posted.

The criticism I wrote in that post, applies to prior posts, particularly yours. It does not necessarily apply to the dozen or so posts that have been made since then.  And clearly there has been some Torah discussion since.

DESPITE the  non Torah nonsense.

[Dr. Dan]

i purposely removed that thread because i realized as i read below that these posts are a discussion that does not involve me..but with DWI, qq and kahanebt..please disregard it.

[q_q_]

correct

[DownwithIslam]

I don't think Q_Q is a troll as I know he has defended JTF against the puppy mill/biscuit feeder forum attacks and that is praiseworthy. With that aside, I can't really agree with Q_Q in any Torah based discussion as I know that you have expressed strong anti Lubavitch sentiment. To express hatred towards the one jewish group that really and sincerely loves every jew is beyond me and unforgivable. This is why I have to be skeptical of your Torah interpretations. I do not think you are a troll and I think we need to work together for the benefit of the cause but I have to say that I do not agree with you here or on the other issues.

Since nobody seems to have anything intelligent to say on the subject of the thread.

You are welcome to hijack this thread to make your claim. But QUOTE ME


I am quite lubavitch friendly.

And I know that there was a thread quite recently where Lulab made a post, which Tzvi -rightly- criticised.   You criticised Tzvi. And I said Tzvi was Right for criticising that post.  The post, and later the thread, revolved around the Moshichist issue within lubavitch, and the more extreme position of those that believe he never died.   These ideas should  at least be understood as controversial, and not mainstream.   They may be brought up in intellectual debate(IMO, despite the dangers to lurking ignoramouses).   But they should not be presented -in any form-, to a newcomer who is ignorant and asking for help. 
(And that is what Tzvi criticised.  And I would and did defend Tzvi criticising that)


And the fact that you don't see that, shows that you have something clouding your judgement. Maybe you think that lubavitch is a holy cow and no element of it can be criticised in any way. Maybe a person reading it wouldn't know what was going on, but I don't think you are naiive, or stupid. Maybe you had such hatred of Tzvi, that you are convinced his post was anti all lubavitch. And when I defended tzvi, you say I am against lubavitch. Whatever the psychology behind your poor judgement is. I have described the situation, see above paragraph, about the post and the moshichist and worse issue. And that was what the Tzvi's post was all about. And it's not anti lubavitch to defend that. Though you thought it was then, and clearly still do.

nothing intelligent to say?!  Who do you think you are?!  You are so high and mighty that you have a right to say that when one wants to give an opinion on something they are dumb?!

if you look at the position in the thread where I posted that, then search up for anything Torah based, you would be hard pressed to find anything after you made your non torah comment (second post).

Since then there has been some Torah discussion.
We(doesn't include you) have managed to squeeze in some Torah discussion, between the nonsense that DWI posted.

The criticism I wrote in that post, applies to prior posts, particularly yours. It does not necessarily apply to the dozen or so posts that have been made since then.  And clearly there has been some Torah discussion since.

DESPITE the  non Torah nonsense.

I guess your version of Torah is figuring out ways to attack Lubavitch. For such a torah based person, you are filled with tremendous hate.

[q_q_]

DWI considers the torah discussion of this thread to be outside of bounds, and he thinks it should be banned.
see this thread
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.0;topicseen

KahaneBT is just as irritated by DWI's attitude here as I am.. And others too.

We can safely ignore DWI.

It is obvious that Chaim would not be banning content such as that which is in this thread.

But I think it has reached a stage where DWI needs to be corrected personally, by chaim or moderators, because he is making quite an effort to wreck a torah discussion. And he is good at wrecking forums with endelss posts.

[DownwithIslam]

DWI considers the torah discussion of this thread to be outside of bounds, and he thinks it should be banned.
see this thread
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.0;topicseen

KahaneBT is just as irritated by DWI's attitude here as I am.. And others too.

We can safely ignore DWI.

It is obvious that Chaim would not be banning content such as that which is in this thread.

But I think it has reached a stage where DWI needs to be corrected personally, by chaim or moderators, because he is making quite an effort to wreck a torah discussion. And he is good at wrecking forums with endelss posts.

Q_Q, I would bet that you don't even know the Aleph Bais. You think every word that comes out of your mouth is Torah when nothing could be further from the truth. You merely spew verbal vomit and take out your anger against the wonderful lubavitch chasidim.

[q_q_]

you haven't quoted me once. But let this thread be your evidence.

[DownwithIslam]

you haven't quoted me once. But let this thread be your evidence.

Whatever, all I know is that I have defended Lubavitch all along so I have a clear conscious. You are the one that needs to worry about judgment day.