General Category > General Discussion
Repost from A7 - On the attack on Prof Sternhell
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2008, 01:48:26 AM ---by Prof. Steven Plaut<snip>As a side note, should it actually turn out that a lunatic from the fringes of the Kahanist movement was involved, I strongly suggest that the denial of freedom of speech to Kahanists should be considered to be the primary cause of the attack. The Kahanists, and only the Kahanists, have been criminalized in Israel, banned, denied freedom of speech, and declared racists and terrorists. Yet, not a single far-Leftist "post-Zionist", nor a single Arab fascist or Stalinist group has been similarly criminalized, and none were officially declared "racists," even when calling for mass murder of Jews or denying the Holocaust.
Forcing fanatics to compete in the marketplace of ideas exposes their ideas to sunshine and fresh air, and ultimately neutralizes them. But the anti-democratic Left and the Israeli political establishment decided arbitrarily to criminalize the Kahanists, banning them as illegal; and people denied freedom of speech sometimes resort to violence. Should it turn out that any were involved, and there is not a shred of evidence that any were, the policy conclusion from such a discovery should be that Kahanism needs to be decriminalized and Kahanists permitted to exercise freedom of speech.
I agree wholeheartedly with the authors assertions.
muman613
--- End quote ---
Where is your post about Chamish by Daniel Pipes, that I responded to?
I can't find the thread anywhere!
The search isn't picking it up, when I type in keywords like Palazzi (whome I mentioned) , since Pipes was very dishonest in his treatment of sheikh palazzi..
Steven Plaut is somebody to beware of..
He does write good articles - against the left.
BUT, he uses the same methods as the left, in opposing free speech.
Interestingly , Muman, . I think I mentioned that Pipes and Plaut conspire together to slander people. You posted that article by Daniel Pipes against Chamish.. Well, here is essentially a copy of it, written by your new friend
In an article in A7
Plaut refers to the neo nazi as barry chamish's editor!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/1
"
Barry Chamish's Editor Arrested in London
....
There were just NO gas chambers, he claims
The Jerusalem Post reports that the Neo-Nazi Holocaust Denier Gerald Frederick Toben, 64, was just arrested in London
"
Alot of what I said about Pipes applies to Plaut.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules. He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 07:53:45 AM ---Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules. He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it.
--- End quote ---
Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.
He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.
And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..
The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots.
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 08:30:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 07:53:45 AM ---Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules. He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it.
--- End quote ---
Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.
He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.
And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..
The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots.
--- End quote ---
q_q_,
I am very perplexed by your response. Do you, or do you not, agree with the facts which were discussed in the article? You seem to always want to attack the source of the information instead of debate the merits of what is discussed.
I moved the Chamish thread to the admin section because I really got upset at you and posted some things I might regret. I really strongly disagree with you about Chamish. He is completely on my wingnut moonbat nutty list and nothing you have said proves otherwise. You attacked me and accused me of slander which is a very serious accusation, and I dont take it lightly.
If you would like to resume the Chamish thread I can move it back into the general discussion area. I really think Chamish is a self-serving non-religious schlemiel who aligns with the enemies of Jews if they pay him. I have seen and heard his interviews with people who are so out there that it makes him completely unbelievable.
q_q_, I will ask you if you think it is ok to judge people by whom they associate with? I hold Obama accountable for his relationship with Rev Wrigth who said "G-d damn america" and "Americans invented aids" and "The chickens came home to roost". I hold Obama accountable because we are judged by whom we associate with. Chamish has associated with some very shady neo-nazis and thusly I will judge him.
I do believe that this article exposes the fact that the Right is not responsible for the act of the one who attacked Sternhell. I would think that this position would be very supported by the Kahanists here at JTF. I sometimes wonder why you always begin by attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message.
muman613
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2008, 11:47:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 08:30:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 07:53:45 AM ---Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules. He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it.
--- End quote ---
Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.
He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.
And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..
The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots.
--- End quote ---
q_q_,
I am very perplexed by your response. Do you, or do you not, agree with the facts which were discussed in the article? You seem to always want to attack the source of the information instead of debate the merits of what is discussed.
--- End quote ---
I said his criticism of the left is good.
I couldn't give a darn about what the left are jabbering about at the moment. But i'm sure Plaut's criticism is good. I'm not talking about that.
I am wondering where the old thread was. WHere you posted an article about chamish by Pipes, and I responded.
(I see you respond to this later in the thread)
And I am pointing out the issue with Plaut and Pipes, incase you don't know.
And I am not using that to invalidate everything he writes.
It is YOU that use character assassination to invalidate everything somebody writes. (case of chamish), and you're only parotting Pipes there anyway. And now you're reading Plaut, which touches slightly on rabin. "strange coincidence".
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2008, 11:47:11 AM ---I moved the Chamish thread to the admin section because I really got upset at you and posted some things I might regret. I really strongly disagree with you about Chamish. He is completely on my wingnut moonbat nutty list and nothing you have said proves otherwise. You attacked me and accused me of slander which is a very serious accusation, and I dont take it lightly.
If you would like to resume the Chamish thread I can move it back into the general discussion area. I really think Chamish is a self-serving non-religious schlemiel who aligns with the enemies of Jews if they pay him. I have seen and heard his interviews with people who are so out there that it makes him completely unbelievable.
--- End quote ---
well if you want you can edit your post and remove where you slandered chamish.
and I can edit mine and remove the accusation..
and then once you're convinced it meets your view of JTF standards, you can move it back
But there is valuable information that I posted there about Daniel Pipes. And it applies to Plaut too.
And your attack on Chamish could have been written by any robot, and thus it's good for people to find a response even though you may want to remove your name from the slander aganst him.
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2008, 11:47:11 AM ---q_q_, I will ask you if you think it is ok to judge people by whom they associate with? I hold Obama accountable for his relationship with Rev Wrigth who said "G-d damn america" and "Americans invented aids" and "The chickens came home to roost". I hold Obama accountable because we are judged by whom we associate with. Chamish has associated with some very shady neo-nazis and thusly I will judge him.
--- End quote ---
It depends what you mean by "Associate with".
I can see you're trying to compare it to where you judged chamish for "associating" with neo nazis.
this is empty rhetoric, the way you use the term..
Chamish, AS I WROTE , was discussing with his readers, whether he should go to that holocaust denial conference. And if he did go, he was going billed as a Holocaust Believer. He planned to put them right..
And to sell his material of course. He does that. As I wrote in that thread. You can accuse him of advertising his material to anybody and everybody, whoever will read it, he wants to get the message out, and sell his books.
That's a far cry from the alsnder that Pipes has written against him.. And the same slander that Plaut has written against him.
And it doesn't invalidate his arguments.
Chamish had not even met the holocaust denier conference head, and he doesn't agree with him.
That "association" is Not Comparable to Obama's pastor for 20 years, Jeremiah Wright.
So don't mix up judging by association. You just don't analyse things at any level.. It's so obvious
So rabbi kahane has an association with the mafia (He mentioned this on the radio in answer to a question).. You have to ask For What. What does the association mean. What was the relationship, and what wasn't it. You don't think about any of this, mental cobwebs and/or emotions getting in the way..
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2008, 11:47:11 AM ---I do believe that this article exposes the fact that the Right is not responsible for the act of the one who attacked Sternhell. I would think that this position would be very supported by the Kahanists here at JTF. I sometimes wonder why you always begin by attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message.
muman613
--- End quote ---
There is a difference here.
I am writing something against the messenger - Plaut - because people should be warned.
I said NOTHING about his message.
You on the other hand attack the messenger - Chamish - (and as I showed, I could have done a better job anyway) and you think that invalidates his whole argument.
You are all emotional and unable to deal with facts and logic in this issue. Or, you're just not able to analyse things at a reasonable level. Or some mixture.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version