Israel receives Iranian youth for cancer treatment

[zachor_ve_kavod]

On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do.  They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are.  But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools.  They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it.  He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.

The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."

It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.

But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people?  We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people? 

The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically...  Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..

That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering.  I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978.  There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down.  But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews.  Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family.  Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him?  Would you agree with that?  I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath.  To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd.  I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically.  I just don't think it's right.

Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:

1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?

Why not to treat?  Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that.  Very justified not to treat.

Why to treat?  Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas!  A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.

Both logical points...but what do I do?  If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life.  If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder?  Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?

I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question.  Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath.  It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future.  Is this wrong?  Does it go against Torah law?  Did this make any sense?

This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child.  The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance.  But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy. 

It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.

In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can.  Why?  Because that's what lions do.

In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways.  BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.

I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me.  The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me.  I will have brought honour to them.  If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them.  So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.

These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.

I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..

However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.

By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way.  An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.

Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...

if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.

You don't think that some people are just plain evil, that they are born that way?  What about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, who grew up with parents who cared for them, took them to church, taught them right from wrong?  Yet these monsters still ended up doing very evil acts.  I doubt that they were taught this evil.  I think it was innate.

I'm not saying, by the way that the islamists are born evil.  One of the worst aspects of islam is how they corrupt their children by brainwashing them with the most evil ideology.  So you're right that it is doubtful that this particular person was born evil, unlike the lion I was talking about.

But I'm just curious as an aside, whether you believe evil is always chosen or if G-d can make some people evil.  G-d made Pharoah, didn't he?

I think it can be one or the other...I'll give you an example..

I believe the majority of people who do evil are rewarded to do so.  But with the right type of punishment can be guided back to non-evil.  These type of people are what i would consider psychologically sane individuals who are aware of their actions and can be taught to be one or the other.  Certainly when evil is taught as a way of life and at a young age, it is much harder to reform that individual once they are an adult...but who knows?  Some Americans who were once pro-Reagan and had conservative values in the 80's might have become nutty with liberal leanings in today's time due to the change in the status quo.  Therefore, anything is possible with sane individuals who are misguided or guided to do evil.

The vast minority of people who do evil are that way because they are mentally insane psychopaths, just like Jeffery Dalmer or Ted Bundy who might have had normal upbringings...I mean, it's quite obvious. If the natural logic is for a person in a normal upbringing will be normal...the one that is mentally insane and eats people, for example, has a mental defective going on...a serious mental medical problem.  I think an evil sane individual would have a hard time doing what Dalmer did.

So, in a nutshell...one can be sane and be taught and rewarded to be a murderer like yasser arafat.  And a vast minority are mentally insane and no matter how they were raised will do things that will harm others because they simply cannot control what their broken brain signals tell them.  A sane individual can be fixed more easily than a mentally insane individual.  Those either need to be institutionalized, given certain medications, or, if they killed a number of people, put to death.

Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?

[Dr. Dan]

On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do.  They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are.  But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools.  They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it.  He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.

The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."

It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.

But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people?  We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people? 

The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically...  Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..

That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering.  I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978.  There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down.  But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews.  Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family.  Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him?  Would you agree with that?  I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath.  To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd.  I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically.  I just don't think it's right.

Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:

1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?

Why not to treat?  Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that.  Very justified not to treat.

Why to treat?  Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas!  A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.

Both logical points...but what do I do?  If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life.  If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder?  Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?

I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question.  Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath.  It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future.  Is this wrong?  Does it go against Torah law?  Did this make any sense?

This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child.  The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance.  But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy. 

It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.

In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can.  Why?  Because that's what lions do.

In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways.  BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.

I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me.  The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me.  I will have brought honour to them.  If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them.  So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.

These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.

I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..

However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.

By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way.  An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.

Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...

if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.

You don't think that some people are just plain evil, that they are born that way?  What about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, who grew up with parents who cared for them, took them to church, taught them right from wrong?  Yet these monsters still ended up doing very evil acts.  I doubt that they were taught this evil.  I think it was innate.

I'm not saying, by the way that the islamists are born evil.  One of the worst aspects of islam is how they corrupt their children by brainwashing them with the most evil ideology.  So you're right that it is doubtful that this particular person was born evil, unlike the lion I was talking about.

But I'm just curious as an aside, whether you believe evil is always chosen or if G-d can make some people evil.  G-d made Pharoah, didn't he?

I think it can be one or the other...I'll give you an example..

I believe the majority of people who do evil are rewarded to do so.  But with the right type of punishment can be guided back to non-evil.  These type of people are what i would consider psychologically sane individuals who are aware of their actions and can be taught to be one or the other.  Certainly when evil is taught as a way of life and at a young age, it is much harder to reform that individual once they are an adult...but who knows?  Some Americans who were once pro-Reagan and had conservative values in the 80's might have become nutty with liberal leanings in today's time due to the change in the status quo.  Therefore, anything is possible with sane individuals who are misguided or guided to do evil.

The vast minority of people who do evil are that way because they are mentally insane psychopaths, just like Jeffery Dalmer or Ted Bundy who might have had normal upbringings...I mean, it's quite obvious. If the natural logic is for a person in a normal upbringing will be normal...the one that is mentally insane and eats people, for example, has a mental defective going on...a serious mental medical problem.  I think an evil sane individual would have a hard time doing what Dalmer did.

So, in a nutshell...one can be sane and be taught and rewarded to be a murderer like yasser arafat.  And a vast minority are mentally insane and no matter how they were raised will do things that will harm others because they simply cannot control what their broken brain signals tell them.  A sane individual can be fixed more easily than a mentally insane individual.  Those either need to be institutionalized, given certain medications, or, if they killed a number of people, put to death.

Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?

i'm suggesting that if a thorough history were done by experts on the field of sanity they can choose whether one is a psychopath by birth and physically and mentally insane or whether they were brainwashed or taught or rewarded to do evil actions.

I would rather refrain from using the term innately "evil"...rather than psychopathic...psychopath do evil things and as far as I know, can't help it...That doesn't mean they get a free pass either..it just means they can't help it and they can't be fixed.  The minority fall under this category...All the rest that do evil have or had free will choose good or choose evil..They are not insane..they are very sane.  Evil sane people might be capable of doing acts as heinous as mentally insane people who do evil things...however, that's just a speculation.  i'm not a psychiatrist.

[muman613]

<snip snip>

Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?

Aren't all the innately evil people completely insane in the movies? Especially the villains in James Bond, or Austin Powers?

  

muman613

[q_q_]

<snip>
Interior Ministry, Shin Bet grant unusual plea by Tehran family to have son suffering form brain cancer treated in Jewish state. 'When a child's life is at stake religion and origin play no part,' says Minister Sheetrit
<snip>

He added that Sheba had acquired a certain history in treating children from various foreign countries. "We hope that with the love and affection we give these kids we are paving the way for at least some  <snip>
 
understanding between people," he said. "We can't change the politics. We are not politicians. We do this because we feel it is our job.
 <snip>
"As far as we are concerned, we are not involved in politics. He is from a country that doesn't really like our existence here, but I think part of our job is to prove to countries like Iran that we are here to help the regular people

They absolutely are playing politics.

Giving preferential treatment to the enemy in the hope of winning them over with love!

To paraphrase Kahane as best as I remember.. on talk radio.
With arabs, being nice is perceived as weak, and that's bad.

[syyuge]

Too many pros and cons can be explained in this matter, however the medical community may be doing a fundamental error in this case.

For best possible treatment, the Iranian patient should be referred to an Israeli veterinary surgeon.

[cjd]

Iranian's are going to do what Iranian's are going to do. By saving or helping this one boy the picture will not change much. By doing this act of kindness Israel will show it is advanced in medical research and people will look to Israel for cutting edge medical procedures. If you have some of the most advanced medical care in the world what better way to show it and form positive public opinion is there than to help people like this boy. American doctors and hospitals have been doing this for years. If the doctors do manage to help this boy I honestly believe he will never forget who helped him.

[q_q_]

Iranian's are going to do what Iranian's are going to do. By saving or helping this one boy the picture will not change much. By doing this act of kindness Israel will show it is advanced in medical research and people will look to Israel for cutting edge medical procedures. If you have some of the most advanced medical care in the world what better way to show it and form positive public opinion is there than to help people like this boy. American doctors and hospitals have been doing this for years. If the doctors do manage to help this boy I honestly believe he will never forget who helped him.

if that were the intention then great.

But they are not smart like that. They are emotionally weak/retarded.

These same hospitals treat terrorists as well as soldiers, and even can give arabs priority over wounded soldiers (this about arabs over wounded soldiers was mentioned by brigitte gabriel, describing the case of her mother, she used it as an example of israeli humanity, though it's really madness)

The fact that they obviously think they are doing something moral by being nice to the enemy, is very damaging, and further worsens their disease. Better that they don't pull stunts like this and worsen their leftist disease, and so they  lose out on a PR stunt that would increase interest in israeli medical research.

furthermore, I imagine that israeli medical research is a bit limited anyway by the 4 years spent in the army..  jews have their hands tied behind their back.
And take note that most jewish nobel prize winners are american not israeli.
 

[AryehYehudah]

I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia.  Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis.  Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients.   

[Dr. Dan]

I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia.  Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis.  Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients.   

Right on!

[Shamgar]

I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia.  Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis.  Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients.   

Right on!

Now who does that sound like, doctors performing euthanasia and experimentations?  Why not just let the IDF do what needs to be done and take them all out along with thier culture (if you can call it that).

[muman613]

I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia.  Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis.  Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients.   

AryehYehuda,

I want to believe you said this in anger. I cant believe I actually hear this from you. We cannot sink to the level of those who have tortured us. We cannot resort to the kind of barbaric practices which the Nazis performed on our brothers and sisters in Germany. There is nothing gained by being unmercifully wicked to our enemies. Either they should die on the battlefield or should be removed from the land.

I realize sometimes we say things which we dont really mean because we are so very upset with the situation. I dont think that Rabbi Kahane would want to torture them with medical experiments either.

muman613

[AryehYehudah]

I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia.  Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis.  Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients.   

AryehYehuda,

I want to believe you said this in anger. I cant believe I actually hear this from you. We cannot sink to the level of those who have tortured us. We cannot resort to the kind of barbaric practices which the Nazis performed on our brothers and sisters in Germany. There is nothing gained by being unmercifully wicked to our enemies. Either they should die on the battlefield or should be removed from the land.

I realize sometimes we say things which we dont really mean because we are so very upset with the situation. I dont think that Rabbi Kahane would want to torture them with medical experiments either.

muman613

Did I sink to a low level???  Did I say anything about torture??  I don't think you read what I said very carefully.  I never said anything about torturing them or performing experiments on them or any nazi type of insanity.  Why don't you read again.  I said Euthanasia, meaning to perform a procedure that immediately kills them, basically putting them out of their own misery.  Or, as a joke somewhat, I said a labotomy, meaning to remove part of their brain that allows them to think.  So, you feel it is ethical to drop bombs on the homes of arabs and let them die a slow painful death with a shrapnel wound, rather than to simply inject a chemical that can peacefully kill them in a minute? 

Yes, I said it out of anger, but nothign I said was any less ethical than any other person on this site.  WHy do you just condemn me for speakign about killing arabs, go condemn the rest of the board too.   You think what I said was worse than "Nuke Mecca" ??!?!   Go read again what I wrote, I never said perform experiments.  What I was saying, and you totally missed my point, is that if we are going to spend Israeli tax dollars and prevent suffering Jewish people from getting help from our doctors in favor of arabs, then we should perform procedures on the arabs that will be beneficial to us Jews, like killing them.  No, I have little mercy on arabs now, they want to genocide my race.  Kill or be killed!

PLEASE Do not add words to my post that I did not say, I never said anything about experiments.. I don't think you people even know what euthanasia or a labotomy is... lol

[muman613]

AryehYehudi,

I understand your opinion and I dont disagree. We need to be more supportive of saving Jewish lives than saving the lives of our enemies. But...

Euthanasia is against the Torah...

muman613

PS: Yes, there is a difference between killing a person  who is going to kill you on the battlefield and killing a patient who needs medical help.

PPS: I am sorry if it appears I picked on this post to complain. In general I am just like you in that I have made comments like this also. But I dont think that being cruel is a good way. So many mitzvot in Torah relate to not hating your neighbor and offering rebuke to them.

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/28/Q1/

Mark from Washington D.C. wrote:

I was wondering about Euthanasia and Jewish law. I know that it's wrong to murder, but this is an act of mercy, and wouldn't euthanasia be like the verse that says to "love the your fellow person as yourself"?

Dear Mark,

When I began to write this response, my son came over to me and asked "Abbah, what are you writing?" "An answer regarding halachic problems with Euthenasia." "But Abbah, why would the rabbis write about the children in Asia??" (|:-)

You are correct in your assumption that we are commanded to love another person (even someone that starts out with a bad joke)- but, of course this care and concern for others must be expressed in a manner which is not contrary to Jewish law.

Jewish law forbids euthanasia in all forms, and is considered an act of homicide. The life of a person is not "his" - rather, it belongs to the One Who granted that life. It may be therefore be reclaimed only by the true Owner of that life. Despite one's noble intentions, an act of mercy-killing is flagrant intervention into a domain that transcends this world.

One source in the Chumash for this prohibition may be found the Book of Genesis:

"But your blood of your lives will I require; ...from the hand of man, from the hand of a person's brother, will I require the life of man."

The additional phrase "a person's brother" after having already stated "from the hand of man" is redundant. The author of the book HaKtav v'haKaballah explains that this verse refers to a prohibition against euthanasia. Although murder is the opposite of brotherly love, one might think that euthanasia is in fact a permitted expression of brotherly love. This verse imprints on our conscience that this particular form of "brotherly love" is nothing more than plain murder.

This does not mean that one should be lax about relieving the other person's pain. Elimination of suffering is a commendable goal. In fact, this may permit even "aggressive" treatment of pain to a degree that is not standard medical practice. For example, heroin use for treatment of pain may be acceptable according to Jewish law, in spite of the risk of addiction. It may be prohibited, however, by civil law.

There are other considerations which are beyond the scope of this column, such as passive/active intervention, prayer for a suffering person's death, and the definition and treatment of a moribund patient (goses). These and other related topics may be further studied of the texts in the accompanying list of sources.

Sources:

    * "Judaism and Healing" - J. David Bleich, Ktav Publishing House.
    * HaKtav v'haKaballah, ibid.
    * Bereshis - 9:5.
    * "The Jewish Attitude Towards Euthanasia," by Fred Posner, Jewish Bio-Ethics, by Fred Posner & J. David Bleich, Sanhedrin Press.
    * Jewish Ethics and Halacha for Our Time, by Basil F. Herring, "Euthanasia", Ktav Publishing.
    * Practical Medical Halacha - Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, "Euthanasia", Feldheim Publishing.
    * Medical Halacha for Everyone - Abraham S. Abraham, "Euthanasia or Mercy Killing", Feldheim Publishing.

[AryehYehudah]

AryehYehudi,

I understand your opinion and I dont disagree. We need to be more supportive of saving Jewish lives than saving the lives of our enemies. But...

Euthanasia is against the Torah...

muman613

PS: Yes, there is a difference between killing a person  who is going to kill you on the battlefield and killing a patient who needs medical help.

PPS: I am sorry if it appears I picked on this post to complain. In general I am just like you in that I have made comments like this also. But I dont think that being cruel is a good way. So many mitzvot in Torah relate to not hating your neighbor and offering rebuke to them.

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/28/Q1/

Mark from Washington D.C. wrote:

I was wondering about Euthanasia and Jewish law. I know that it's wrong to murder, but this is an act of mercy, and wouldn't euthanasia be like the verse that says to "love the your fellow person as yourself"?

Dear Mark,

When I began to write this response, my son came over to me and asked "Abbah, what are you writing?" "An answer regarding halachic problems with Euthenasia." "But Abbah, why would the rabbis write about the children in Asia??" (|:-)

You are correct in your assumption that we are commanded to love another person (even someone that starts out with a bad joke)- but, of course this care and concern for others must be expressed in a manner which is not contrary to Jewish law.

Jewish law forbids euthanasia in all forms, and is considered an act of homicide. The life of a person is not "his" - rather, it belongs to the One Who granted that life. It may be therefore be reclaimed only by the true Owner of that life. Despite one's noble intentions, an act of mercy-killing is flagrant intervention into a domain that transcends this world.

One source in the Chumash for this prohibition may be found the Book of Genesis:

"But your blood of your lives will I require; ...from the hand of man, from the hand of a person's brother, will I require the life of man."

The additional phrase "a person's brother" after having already stated "from the hand of man" is redundant. The author of the book HaKtav v'haKaballah explains that this verse refers to a prohibition against euthanasia. Although murder is the opposite of brotherly love, one might think that euthanasia is in fact a permitted expression of brotherly love. This verse imprints on our conscience that this particular form of "brotherly love" is nothing more than plain murder.

This does not mean that one should be lax about relieving the other person's pain. Elimination of suffering is a commendable goal. In fact, this may permit even "aggressive" treatment of pain to a degree that is not standard medical practice. For example, heroin use for treatment of pain may be acceptable according to Jewish law, in spite of the risk of addiction. It may be prohibited, however, by civil law.

There are other considerations which are beyond the scope of this column, such as passive/active intervention, prayer for a suffering person's death, and the definition and treatment of a moribund patient (goses). These and other related topics may be further studied of the texts in the accompanying list of sources.

Sources:

    * "Judaism and Healing" - J. David Bleich, Ktav Publishing House.
    * HaKtav v'haKaballah, ibid.
    * Bereshis - 9:5.
    * "The Jewish Attitude Towards Euthanasia," by Fred Posner, Jewish Bio-Ethics, by Fred Posner & J. David Bleich, Sanhedrin Press.
    * Jewish Ethics and Halacha for Our Time, by Basil F. Herring, "Euthanasia", Ktav Publishing.
    * Practical Medical Halacha - Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, "Euthanasia", Feldheim Publishing.
    * Medical Halacha for Everyone - Abraham S. Abraham, "Euthanasia or Mercy Killing", Feldheim Publishing.

SO if Euthanasia is against Torah, I suppose Arabs can freely murder us and we can never give them a death penalty?  In other words by us Euthanizing Adolf Eichmann, we Jews sinned against Torah?  What about when Melech Shlomo had Adoniyah put to death for rebelling against G-d?  Or when Melech David ordered for the death of the man who killed Melech Sha'ul.  In Torah it also says eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a foot for a foot.  Euthanizing someone is probably the most sound way to kill a person, whereas taking a sword of gun and blowing out their body organs and letting them die a slow, painful death is perhaps the worst.  Our enemies would not spare us for a minute.  Anyhow, I think it is a greater sin to let Jewish people suffer and go sick and to help Arab nazi terrorists than to Euthanize Arabs.  I do not support Euthanizing arabs, but my point is, if money will be spent in our hospitals for medical procedures on Arabs or Muslims, the only one should be to finish them off; like lets say execute criminals who murdered innocent Jewish people.  I will not let my money go to healing Arab terrorists so innocent Jews can die, I will go and kill those Arabs so they cannot create any more mischief.  I am not a Talmud expert and do not know all the teachings, but I know from reading Tanach that us Jews succeeded when we punished our enemies.  When G-d commanded the JEws to crush Yericho or Canaanites we did not spare anyone.  Today, all we do is euthanize our own people and empower and embolden our enemis.

May Hashem forgive me if I sin here, but I am tired of our country/Israel healing Arabs and letting Jews suffer.

[muman613]

<snip>

SO if Euthanasia is against Torah, I suppose Arabs can freely murder us and we can never give them a death penalty?  In other words by us Euthanizing Adolf Eichmann, we Jews sinned against Torah?  What about when Melech Shlomo had Adoniyah put to death for rebelling against G-d?  Or when Melech David ordered for the death of the man who killed Melech Sha'ul.  In Torah it also says eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a foot for a foot.  Euthanizing someone is probably the most sound way to kill a person, whereas taking a sword of gun and blowing out their body organs and letting them die a slow, painful death is perhaps the worst.  Our enemies would not spare us for a minute.  Anyhow, I think it is a greater sin to let Jewish people suffer and go sick and to help Arab nazi terrorists than to Euthanize Arabs.  I do not support Euthanizing arabs, but my point is, if money will be spent in our hospitals for medical procedures on Arabs or Muslims, the only one should be to finish them off; like lets say execute criminals who murdered innocent Jewish people.  I will not let my money go to healing Arab terrorists so innocent Jews can die, I will go and kill those Arabs so they cannot create any more mischief.  I am not a Talmud expert and do not know all the teachings, but I know from reading Tanach that us Jews succeeded when we punished our enemies.  When G-d commanded the JEws to crush Yericho or Canaanites we did not spare anyone.  Today, all we do is euthanize our own people and empower and embolden our enemis.

May Hashem forgive me if I sin here, but I am tired of our country/Israel healing Arabs and letting Jews suffer.

AryehYehudah,

There is a difference between Euthanasia {Terminating the life of a medical patient} and destroying evil. I think we have mixed up the definitions here. I have said nothing about killing our enemies which is completely Torah sanctioned. I am sorry if I gave the impression that it is forbidden.

The issue is Euthansia terminating the life of a sick person. This is most certainly forbidden. But in all the cases you named the death was justified. Torah itself sanctions the death penalty on those who violate Shabbat along with those who violate sexual purity laws. Torah is very clear that Israel must destroy the evil within its midst. But the death penalty must also be dealt in only very specific circumstances. A Beit Din who executed 7 in 70 years was considered barbaric. Jewish law also makes it extremely difficult to condemn someone to death because of the requirement of having 3 witnesses and having to have rebuked the individual before he commited the offense.

When dealing with enemies of the Children of Israel we are dealing with another sack of beans. Anyone who rises up against us is an enemy and we have a mitzvah to destroy them. This is the mitzvah of remembering Amalek and destroying him. But the problem I have with this is that we really dont know who Amalek is today. Someone recently proclaimed that Amalek was a Bedouin tribe but this is not factual. According to our understanding the last known descendants of Amalek were of Persian persuasion {Haman of the Purim story}. Some Rabbis comment that Amalek is any spiritual force which rises against the Jewish nation. In this understanding it could be that the Islamic arabs are acting as Amalek.

I dont think we should Euthanize arabs seeking medical help at Israeli facilities. Either we should not treat them, or we should treat them. One must also consider the Torah source for judging people on what they are now, not what they will do in the future. This is learned from the story of Abraham, when he threw Ishmael and Hagar out of his house with only enough food for a day. Hashem saves Ishmael {our enemy} from death because he had done Teshuva despite the fact that Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs.

It is a Jewish principle to give people the benefit of the doubt till they prove that they don't deserve such a benefit. Our enemies are not to be trusted and we must stand strong against them. But we also have our morals which make us better than they are. We cannot forsake our moral imperative because we are angry or tired.

I have only stated my opinions on this topic.

muman613
 

[AryehYehudah]

There is a difference between Euthanasia {Terminating the life of a medical patient} and destroying evil. I think we have mixed up the definitions here. I have said nothing about killing our enemies which is completely Torah sanctioned. I am sorry if I gave the impression that it is forbidden.

Shalom Muman,
I understand you well and respect your knowledge on these subjects.  However, I was not talking about euthanizing sick people in need of help.  Yes, I can see if a person comes needing help to just kill him would be unethical.  What I was talking about was using our tax money in Jewish hospitals to good use.  For example, there is many Arabs sitting in prisons for murdering innocent people.  They are perfectly healthy and in cold blood, murdered innocent people.  I think our tax money would be much better spent killing these people than letting more Jews die so we can heal Arabs so they can go out and kill more of our people.  That was my point.  This was all hypothetical, nothing I said I really meant literally, I hope you can understand that. 

A Beit Din who executed 7 in 70 years was considered barbaric. Jewish law also makes it extremely difficult to condemn someone to death because of the requirement of having 3 witnesses and having to have rebuked the individual before he commited the offense.

The only one thing I question in what you wrote is that in order to put somone to death, we need to rebuke the offender before they commit the crime.  Does that mean we were unjustified in killing Adolf Eichmann and even fighting nazi germany?  I mean, there must have been many nazis who never were rebuked before helping to put Jews into gas chambers.  I like to learn more about the logic of this reasoning and what exceptions or rules the rabbis have adminstered in dealing with these situations I mention.  Perhaps, the situation you describe above is for domestic crimes, rather than engagement against an enemy, or do they coincide?

[q_q_]

<snip>
It is a Jewish principle to give people the benefit of the doubt till they prove that they don't deserve such a benefit. Our enemies are not to be trusted and we must stand strong against them. But we also have our morals which make us better than they are. We cannot forsake our moral imperative because we are angry or tired.

I have only stated my opinions on this topic.

When yaakov's sons killed the men of shchem, that wasn't about morality/ western morality.

Rabbi Meir Kahane said something along the lines of  "i'm tired of being more moral than they are"
(some say yaakov rebuked them for excess, others not. Rabbi Binyamin Kahane said not)

Rabbi Meir Kahane also pointed out in his debate with Dershowitz, that the Torah is not about morality.  Killing Amelek, all of them, men women and children, is not moral.

there is the text in the shulchan aruch and talmud  - that if the enemy come , even just to take straw,   you go to war with them.

Here is something easily found with google regarding that
google enemy straw war torah

When it is a city close to the border, then, even if they want to come only for the purpose of [taking] straw and stubble, we desecrate the Shabbos because of them; for [if we do not prevent their coming] they may conquer the city, and from there the [rest of the] land will be easy for them to conquer.
(Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 329:6)

(found from this site http://www.truepeace.org/ihalachah.htm  though I don't know about rest of the site.. I picked up the passage via google )

Here is a site I have used a few times, it speaks of the same thing, but references the talmud.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/warpeace/War_TO_Combat/War_Types_Hartman/War_Defensive_Dorff.htm
gives a description, and  mentions talmud tractate eruvin 45b

Rabbi Meir Kahane has also said, in audio radio show, when asked if he believes in an eye for an eye. He had to give succinct answers.  He very cleverly responded  "I believe in two eyes for an eye". 

[AryehYehudah]

I was speaking of Euthansia not in the medical sense, but spiritual sense.  Arabs are sick people who need to be quickly and with the least amount of suffering put to death.  IT was more of a metaphor, sorry some people could not understand it.  Interesting post, q_q.. I will have to investigate your links , because I am a bit confused on what you wrote; however some of it made sense to me.  I feel in the case where people try to cause harm against G-d, his Shabbos and his People, then those people must be destroyed or fought to prevent them from succeeding in their evil deeds.  Rabbi Meir Kahane certainly was correct in his analsyis and it coincides perfectly with Tanach as I have read it.  Israel never spared her enemies when they were a major threat.  Yes, cutting a baby's throat is not moral, but done of out necessity to save our race from our own extinction.  When G-d told us to eradicate a village, as the people were threatening to destroy u, we did what was necessary for survival.  Kill or be killed. 

[q_q_]

I was speaking of Euthansia not in the medical sense, but spiritual sense.  Arabs are sick people who need to be quickly and with the least amount of suffering put to death.  IT was more of a metaphor, sorry some people could not understand it.  Interesting post, q_q.. I will have to investigate your links , because I am a bit confused on what you wrote; however some of it made sense to me.  I feel in the case where people try to cause harm against G-d, his Shabbos and his People, then those people must be destroyed or fought to prevent them from succeeding in their evil deeds.  Rabbi Meir Kahane certainly was correct in his analsyis and it coincides perfectly with Tanach as I have read it.  Israel never spared her enemies when they were a major threat.  Yes, cutting a baby's throat is not moral, but done of out necessity to save our race from our own extinction.  When G-d told us to eradicate a village, as the people were threatening to destroy u, we did what was necessary for survival.  Kill or be killed. 

I wouldn't say "save our race"

rabbi kahane never referred to jews as a race.  We are a religio-nation.

A nation, a people.

Anybody that converts is a part of the jewish people 100%.

You may say there are certain things they cannot do. But the fact is that there are certain things that Cohanim do and cannot do, and they have more responsibility than Leviim. Both boht kohanim and leviim are 100% jewish, not one more than the other. Converts are considered 100% jewish, and very respected.  even moreso, since there is a commandment to love the convert as well as the fellow jew . So 2 commanments there.
The RAMBAM wrote a letter to a convert about this issue.