General Category > General Discussion
BBC online article on judaism looks like it's written by a muslim.
muman613:
--- Quote from: jaime on October 20, 2008, 08:17:12 AM ---"You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.
It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them."
q_q, why are you being so mean to Muman? So you think, from your experience, that article is written by a Muslim because it is so fundamental in its statements. References to skullcaps, etc. you are probably right, but why do you have to say such mean things to Muman :doctor:
--- End quote ---
jaime,
Its OK, we are both grown men here... I think he likes this kind of banter... I am just engaging him the way he wants to be engaged in this battle of words. I am not offended at all...
muman613
PS: This stems from a disagreement we have about a certain author.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jaime on October 20, 2008, 08:17:12 AM ---"You are totally dishonest in your tactics. You don't write expecting honest discussion.
It's amazing that you haven't yet learnt that your weak methods can't fool me. I see right through them."
q_q, why are you being so mean to Muman? So you think, from your experience, that article is written by a Muslim because it is so fundamental in its statements. References to skullcaps, etc. you are probably right, but why do you have to say such mean things to Muman
--- End quote ---
It's not "being mean", it's constructive criticism. He's a man, he can take it.
I don't think it changes him , but at least it exposes the flaws in his arguments so that others don't fall for it or it follow the same route. His errors are abstract/conceptual. It's not actually a personal thing or a reaction to anything else. He doesn't really understand that, and probably never will. And many others may not either, and i'm fine with that. But there's the explanation anyway. Incase it isn't already obvious enough.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 20, 2008, 08:15:14 AM ---<snip>
You never answered my questions concerning why Isaac would believe in his heart that Esau deserved the blessing? Yes he was blind but he felt a closeness to Esau and wanted to help him improve. And most certainly I have understood the plain text.
--- End quote ---
yep, he was blind, and this is in the plain text. you wrote something correct there
he wanted to help esau improve? where is that in the plain text?
a small side point before dealing with your question.
Originally there may have been only one blessing but remember that ultimately both sons received a blessing. Esau ended up with the lesser blessing, but it may be that Isaac would have felt jacob would have deserved that.
Onto your question.
There is a very obvious reason why he wanted to give the great blessing to esau.
a)There are hints that esau being the first born may have been part of the reason or a reason. But putting that aside.
The obvious reason is this.
b)Esau brought him meat. Esau was a man's man, he hunted and brought Isaac meat that he loved. You're a man, so, man to man, you know how satisfying it is to eat good meat. Esau's masculine character resonated with Isaac. Now, again, man to man. You don't look like a pansy, and from some of the real life stories you have told, you don't act like one. If you have strong masculine character traits, you will want to be friendly with people with similar traits. They shared that in common. (I'm not saying that Jacob was effeminate, but he didn't have as much manly aggression as Esau. Infact, coming to think of it, an interesting observation is that Jacob favoured Joseph, and a description or two of Joseph show him as not a particularly aggressive manly man character) . Yaakov was strong , or grew strong. He moved that stone(though later in life), but Esau's aggressively male character traits were greater and used more. Esau looked after Isaac by bringing him food, it showed alot of respect to him as his father. So Isaac really liked him alot.. he had produced this really strong son, a son that is caring and respectful enough to bring him meat.
Regarding point a, that Esau was the firstborn.
the text may be suggesting that Esau was going to get the better blessing because he was the firstborn. Bear in mind that we already know that Esau was the firstborn. It said that when Jacob and Esau was born.
Gen 27:1
And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his elder son, and said unto him: 'My son'; and he said unto him: 'Here am I.'
Gen 27:19
And Jacob said unto his father: 'I am Esau thy first-born
You can ignore point 'a', because you don't understand the place of speculation, even though everything you write is wild speculation written as beliefs, and on serious subjects.
<snip>
Now, regarding you accusing me saying that I "believe that it MUST BE WRITTEN BY A MUSLIM"
That is a totally brainless reading of my post.
Firstly, the content of the post is hilarious..
So clearly humour is a purpose of my post. (the extracts of the BBC article, and my obervation)
Secondly it's not a serious subject, my speculation is clearly stated as speculation. It's not like you writing on a serious subject ignoring the plain text in favour of something that contradicts it. You have since "apologised" for that. But that was why your speculation was so stupid.
Thirdly, I said "want to bet that a muslim wrote this article on judaism?"
That should suggest that it's not a firm belief.
anyhow, I would say that anybody that knows muslims well, would see that it is either written by a muslim, or by somebody that has been very very islamized. I didn't need to add the latter because it is not a serious thing. Just a funny thing. You have to use your brain to put things in the correct category. It's not a fact like "space contains planets". It's not a lie like "space is run by computers". It's an observation from me. You may agree, you may not. You of course, completely miscategorise the statement. You don't get anything.
sopme useful sources, that helped to find the exact chapter and verse of a few things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob
http://www.answers.com/topic/isaac
Now answer an obvious question..
since your original reply criticised my "speculation" trying to use my standards. Clearly you had in mind a particular case where I had criticised your "speculation", and your mind was drawing analogy. Why didn't you bring up the example? Why did I have to read your mind and see that you had in mind a thread about jacob and esau?
It put it to you that it's because you weren't interested in an honest discussion about it.
But what do you say the reason is?
Shlomo:
Debate is good as long as it's handled in dignified and respectful manner. Let's be careful not to be insulting and turn this thread into another flame war.
muman613:
q_q_,
Wonderful work.... You just basically took what I quoted in my examples and rehashed it and sent it back to me. Of course you seem to think you have revealed something new to the conversation. I am not going to spend a great deal of time proving this to you, but if you want to continue arguing in this manner we can go back and examine the posts which I made.
It seems you are on a mission to try to prove something about my knowledge of Torah. I am on a mission for truth, regardless of what your aim is. I have tried repeatedly to appeal to the good which should exist in the neshamah of each and every Jew, to seek truth and pursue it. But you want to prove to the world that you know it all. The truth is that you can learn a lot more if you just put down your defense mechanism. This is why I assume you must either be very young, or very old. A mature man will be able to contribute to a discussion without drawing all the attention to himself or without insulting another person.
By the way, I read the article to which you linked and it doesnt seem to me to be written by a muslim. To me it seems to be written by someone who doesn't really know much about Judaism. A muslim would never treat the subject so gingerly as the writer of that article. Notice that there is no assertion that Jews don't have a right to Israel? I did... I guess its your Extra Sensory Perception working again (or not)...
--- Quote ---
The early Jewish immigrants to London faced many more difficulties. They encountered discrimination which included laws preventing them from obtaining a degree or voting.
Why would a muslim discuss antisemitism from London?
It wasn’t until the 1656, that a Jewish man or woman was recognised in the eyes of the law and could live as a normal citizen.
There are many festivals that are celebrated, one of the most important is Pesach or Passover. It marks the time that Jewish people were led by Moses out of slavery, guided by God.
Why explain about the G-ds saving the Jewish people from the hand of Egypt?
Moses then went to Mount Sinai where God gave him the Ten Commandments and a Covenant was made.
Why would a muslim explain that a covenent was made with the Jewish people at Sinai?
God told Moses that they would always be looked after and the people of Israel promised only to have one God.
Why would a muslim even admit that Israel would be special to Hashem?
--- End quote ---
Whenever I read something which is obviously written by muslims it usually refutes the claim of Israel on the land and the covenent made with G-d. More recently the Muslims have been claiming that the Jews have no right to the land of Israel. It would seem the author of this article doesn't quite belong to that group.
muman613
PS: Your spider senses are failing you Peter... I simply have decided to take everything you write with a grain of salt. You have jumped up and down my throat for simply quoting an article and not attributing it according to your liking. But then I noticed several other posters doing the same thing and yet you do not insult or disparage them. This must be something personal which you are taking out on me. I dont really mind because I have delt with people with this particular personality 'trait'.
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