Holocaust survivor and his daughter support Barack Hussein Obama

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

CF you are all too right and I think you should express you opinion because it is coming from logic. Keep doing what you are doing this world needs you

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I can't go along with you guys on this one.  Anybody who can make the claim that they could have survived the holocaust and not be profoundly affected, is a charlatan.  How can you make the claim that holocaust survivors are self-hating, or traitors, or probably left-wing (which is anachronistic by the way)?  You presume that this particular survivor must somehow be a traitor to the Jews for supporting Obama.  Why don't you consider the idea that this may be a shattered soul?  Are you so certain that you would have overcome the experiences of the Shoah, and that you would not have been morally disoriented, like I believe this person is?  We must consider holocaust survivors to be in a unique category of Jews.  We can't condemn them blindly.  I think that this man is mistaken, but I won't suggest that he is either self hating or a traitor.

[White Israelite]

lol now she's saying i'm not a Jew on her youtube comments.

[White Israelite]

I can't go along with you guys on this one.  Anybody who can make the claim that they could have survived the holocaust and not be profoundly affected, is a charlatan.  How can you make the claim that holocaust survivors are self-hating, or traitors, or probably left-wing (which is anachronistic by the way)?  You presume that this particular survivor must somehow be a traitor to the Jews for supporting Obama.  Why don't you consider the idea that this may be a shattered soul?  Are you so certain that you would have overcome the experiences of the Shoah, and that you would not have been morally disoriented, like I believe this person is?  We must consider holocaust survivors to be in a unique category of Jews.  We can't condemn them blindly.  I think that this man is mistaken, but I won't suggest that he is either self hating or a traitor.

With Jews like that, who needs enemies?

[Sparky]

He probably survived the Holocaust by being a Judenrat.  And he continues to be one today by voting for Obama.  Sorry, but I've lost all tolerance for these self-hating Jews who put me at risk.

That's not fair.  This man is mistaken, but I don't think that he's self-hating.  My grandfather was a survivor.  He lost his entire family.  He had some beliefs that I consider wrong, but I know that the holocaust messed with his mind. Many survivors only survived physically.  They continued their lives as shells of their former selves.  I cannot conceive of this man's life and what led him to the point where he will vote for Obama.  I don't condemn this man, I take pity on him.  We have to be considerate of holocaust survivors.  To say that he probably survived the holocaust by being a Judenrat is disrespectful.

Obama surrounds himself with the worst kind of anti-Semites, and supports the enemies of the Jewish people and Israel.  If he wins the election, Iran will develop a nuclear weapon during his administration with the potential of creating another holocaust.

So, while I respect your opinion, the last thing I'm going to do is take pity on Jew who votes for Obama.  I don't see how surviving the Holocaust excuses a Jew from making such a poor choice. If I'm being harsh, it's only a reflection of my frustration that the majority of Jews are voting for Obama.   

It is okay to be frustrated, I even share that with you.  You can also argue against and try to persuade holocaust survivors not to vote for Obama.  But I cannot condemn a holocaust survivor for voting for Obama.  I can tell him that I think he is wrong, but to suggest that he must have been a Judenrat collaborator is stepping over the line, in my opinion.

My use of the term Judenrat was meant as a metaphor, not to be taken literally.  I have no idea what this person's experience was during the holocaust.  I was only trying to make the point that those Jews who support Obama are in the same sense collaborators with those who seek their destruction.  I never meant for more to be read into it than that.  Let's at least be clear on that.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

He probably survived the Holocaust by being a Judenrat.  And he continues to be one today by voting for Obama.  Sorry, but I've lost all tolerance for these self-hating Jews who put me at risk.

That's not fair.  This man is mistaken, but I don't think that he's self-hating.  My grandfather was a survivor.  He lost his entire family.  He had some beliefs that I consider wrong, but I know that the holocaust messed with his mind. Many survivors only survived physically.  They continued their lives as shells of their former selves.  I cannot conceive of this man's life and what led him to the point where he will vote for Obama.  I don't condemn this man, I take pity on him.  We have to be considerate of holocaust survivors.  To say that he probably survived the holocaust by being a Judenrat is disrespectful.

Obama surrounds himself with the worst kind of anti-Semites, and supports the enemies of the Jewish people and Israel.  If he wins the election, Iran will develop a nuclear weapon during his administration with the potential of creating another holocaust.

So, while I respect your opinion, the last thing I'm going to do is take pity on Jew who votes for Obama.  I don't see how surviving the Holocaust excuses a Jew from making such a poor choice. If I'm being harsh, it's only a reflection of my frustration that the majority of Jews are voting for Obama.   

It is okay to be frustrated, I even share that with you.  You can also argue against and try to persuade holocaust survivors not to vote for Obama.  But I cannot condemn a holocaust survivor for voting for Obama.  I can tell him that I think he is wrong, but to suggest that he must have been a Judenrat collaborator is stepping over the line, in my opinion.

My use of the term Judenrat was meant as a metaphor, not to be taken literally.  I have no idea what this person experience was during the holocaust.  I was only trying to make the point that those Jews who support Obama are in the same sense collaborators with those who seek their destruction.  I never meant for more to be read into it than that.  Let's at least be clear on that.

Don't feel bad about it, hell I'm not politically correct, the guy is a judenrat and would be better off in the ovens. Those people are a enemy to the rest of the Jewish people and have committed a great sin against our people, they are like the people who sell drugs and say "see it's not so bad". He's using the holocaust as a excuse to get people to vote for Obama.

This guy would be better off in the ovens!?!

[muman613]

<snip>

This guy would be better off in the ovens!?!

NNNNNNNN        NNNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!
N:::::::N       N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
N::::::::N      N::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO!:::!
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N::::::::::N    N::::::O::::::O   O::::::!:::!
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N::::::N    N::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!!:!!
N::::::N     N:::::::::O::::::O   O::::::O!!!
N::::::N      N::::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::O   
N::::::N       N:::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO !!!
N::::::N        N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
NNNNNNNN         NNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!


Sometimes people say things... Oy...

muman613

PS: No excuse in the world could justify killing Jews for being Jewish... None!

[muman613]

<snip>

That's exactly what I said, these type of people are the kind that probably told Nazis where Jews were living just to save their own neck, they are traitors and the fact he supports Obama shows it. Go read my comments in the youtube thing and look what his own daughter says, she accuses me of not even being Jewish and then states how barbaric Torah is. Guess what, people are influenced by their parents. I said it and I'll say it again, the guy is better off in the ovens, his daughter and him are the kind that would give up Israel and stab Jews in the back so they can continue to live their life of fraud and deceit, those aren't Jews, those are traitors. Don't let your emotions override the facts here.

Think of it this way, I could get my grandpa to pretend to be a holocaust survivor and tell you to vote for Obama, it's the same thing blacks do to get votes claiming their a victim of slavery. He's using it as a political excuse.

White Israelite,

I understand your anger but please try not to jump to conclusions. There are many 'good Jews' who are going to vote for Obama. It is unfair to judge them all with such a cruel statement.

muman613

PS: That is terrible what his daughter said. It is a shame they have lost their connection to their heritage. This is the doings of some pretty bad events of the last century. I am very disappointed that these bad Jews are lost but I hope there is an opportunity for teshuvah. I have seen it happen late in life.
 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

<snip>

This guy would be better off in the ovens!?!

NNNNNNNN        NNNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!
N:::::::N       N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
N::::::::N      N::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO!:::!
N:::::::::N     N::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::!:::!
N::::::::::N    N::::::O::::::O   O::::::!:::!
N:::::::::::N   N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N:::::::N::::N  N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
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N::::::N  N::::N:::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N   N:::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N    N::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!!:!!
N::::::N     N:::::::::O::::::O   O::::::O!!!
N::::::N      N::::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::O   
N::::::N       N:::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO !!!
N::::::N        N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
NNNNNNNN         NNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!


Sometimes people say things... Oy...

muman613

PS: No excuse in the world could justify killing Jews for being Jewish... None!

Thank you Muman.  I think the invective here against this person is going too far.

[White Israelite]

<snip>

This guy would be better off in the ovens!?!

NNNNNNNN        NNNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!
N:::::::N       N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
N::::::::N      N::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO!:::!
N:::::::::N     N::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::!:::!
N::::::::::N    N::::::O::::::O   O::::::!:::!
N:::::::::::N   N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N:::::::N::::N  N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
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N::::::N   N:::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N    N::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!!:!!
N::::::N     N:::::::::O::::::O   O::::::O!!!
N::::::N      N::::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::O   
N::::::N       N:::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO !!!
N::::::N        N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
NNNNNNNN         NNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!


Sometimes people say things... Oy...

muman613

PS: No excuse in the world could justify killing Jews for being Jewish... None!

Muman have you seen the disgusting statements his daughter made calling Torah barbaric? Those are the type of people who would sell Jews down a river or destroy Israel just so they can live their live amongst the goyium, they use the holocaust like blacks who never went through slavery use it as an excuse to promote their political motives. The fact this guy would even use the holocaust or his daughter use it to exploit and promote illegal immigration, higher taxes, sending aid to muslim countries or giving up precious Jewish land is unforgiveable. I do not appologize for my statement, they are evil creatures.

edit: where'd my post go?

[muman613]

<snip>
Muman have you seen the disgusting statements his daughter made calling Torah barbaric? Those are the type of people who would sell Jews down a river or destroy Israel just so they can live their live amongst the goyium, they use the holocaust like blacks who never went through slavery use it as an excuse to promote their political motives. The fact this guy would even use the holocaust or his daughter use it to exploit and promote illegal immigration, higher taxes, sending aid to muslim countries or giving up precious Jewish land is unforgiveable. I do not appologize for my statement, they are evil creatures.

edit: where'd my post go?

I didn't do anything with your post... I thought you removed it...

muman613

[White Israelite]

<snip>
Muman have you seen the disgusting statements his daughter made calling Torah barbaric? Those are the type of people who would sell Jews down a river or destroy Israel just so they can live their live amongst the goyium, they use the holocaust like blacks who never went through slavery use it as an excuse to promote their political motives. The fact this guy would even use the holocaust or his daughter use it to exploit and promote illegal immigration, higher taxes, sending aid to muslim countries or giving up precious Jewish land is unforgiveable. I do not appologize for my statement, they are evil creatures.

edit: where'd my post go?

I didn't do anything with your post... I thought you removed it...

muman613

No, I went to edit it and it was gone, weird.

[Sparky]

<snip>

This guy would be better off in the ovens!?!

NNNNNNNN        NNNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!
N:::::::N       N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
N::::::::N      N::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO!:::!
N:::::::::N     N::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::!:::!
N::::::::::N    N::::::O::::::O   O::::::!:::!
N:::::::::::N   N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N:::::::N::::N  N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N N::::N N::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N  N::::N:::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N   N:::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!:::!
N::::::N    N::::::::::O:::::O     O:::::!!:!!
N::::::N     N:::::::::O::::::O   O::::::O!!!
N::::::N      N::::::::O:::::::OOO:::::::O   
N::::::N       N:::::::NOO:::::::::::::OO !!!
N::::::N        N::::::N  OO:::::::::OO  !!:!!
NNNNNNNN         NNNNNNN    OOOOOOOOO     !!!


Sometimes people say things... Oy...

muman613

PS: No excuse in the world could justify killing Jews for being Jewish... None!

Muman have you seen the disgusting statements his daughter made calling Torah barbaric? Those are the type of people who would sell Jews down a river or destroy Israel just so they can live their live amongst the goyium, they use the holocaust like blacks who never went through slavery use it as an excuse to promote their political motives. The fact this guy would even use the holocaust or his daughter use it to exploit and promote illegal immigration, higher taxes, sending aid to muslim countries or giving up precious Jewish land is unforgiveable. I do not appologize for my statement, they are evil creatures.

edit: where'd my post go?

You know, I'm hearing both sides of this argument.  The question that really matters is, what would Chaim say?

[White Israelite]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

I will remove my statement.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

They need to be debated and defeated, not silenced.  But I will admit that they can do much harm to the Jewish community.  That is why we have to defeat their arguments.

[muman613]

White Israelite,

Your anger is righteous and that is good. I do not seek to appease that and I hope that our anger is turned into merit by causing those we rebuke to change their ways. I know that catastrophe has caused a great disease to faith in my family. It is a struggle when our lot is so hard. I believe many Jews have turned their back on Hashem and have rebelled before him.

I know this is true but I also know that Hashem is merciful and has patience with the transgressor. If someone had judged me on the way I was 20 years ago it would have been a harsh judgment. But because of the troubles and catastrophe in my life I saw the hashgacha pratis {divine providence} in life. I feel that all who have taken the wrong path have potential to turn around and return to the right way. But some people take the catastrophe and struggle of life and don't learn the lesson which is placed before them. These people turn their back on Hashem and they increase their rebellion. Some survivors of the Nazi atrocities lived to be very religious and righteous people. Some of the survivors were bitter and turned away from the belief in a merciful and loving father. In a sense we are very sad to have to judge those who survived such calamity and suffering. This is why I agree with zachod_ve_kavod in this issue.

I will not stand against you but I will still judge favorably.

muman613

[White Israelite]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

They need to be debated and defeated, not silenced.  But I will admit that they can do much harm to the Jewish community.  That is why we have to defeat their arguments.

What does it matter, they censor us anyways and don't allow us to debate, if we present fact, they completely ignore the statements and go back to the offensive so we're on the defensive. I tried commenting on Obamas youtube thing and all comments are approved.

This is what they want, just like the neo nazis, they want to come out with the whole "your going to hear what we have to say and then you can refute it later", but by then, the damage has been done because people have already sucked up their [censored].

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

They need to be debated and defeated, not silenced.  But I will admit that they can do much harm to the Jewish community.  That is why we have to defeat their arguments.

What does it matter, they censor us anyways and don't allow us to debate, if we present fact, they completely ignore the statements and go back to the offensive so we're on the defensive. I tried commenting on Obamas youtube thing and all comments are approved.

This is what they want, just like the neo nazis, they want to come out with the whole "your going to hear what we have to say and then you can refute it later", but by then, the damage has been done because people have already sucked up their excrement.

So, what's your suggestion?

[muman613]

Shalom,

I spent last Shabbat in Berkeley, CA.

I know that will shock a lot of people {maybe? ! ?}. There is a very nice orthodox community in Berkeley and for Berkeley standards it is pretty conservative and even pro-Israel. I am so glad we did not bring up politics over Shabbat because although I know that my Rabbi said he would not vote of Obama I am afraid that some of the minyan might be pro-Obama.

I know they knew my political position and in the little discussion with my Rabbi before davening we were talking about the situation regarding Iran and nuclear proliferation. I believe he knows that we must do something and this is why he is hesitant about Obama. Others who I know are liberals on most topics are somewhat muted about their happiness with Obama.

muman613

[White Israelite]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

They need to be debated and defeated, not silenced.  But I will admit that they can do much harm to the Jewish community.  That is why we have to defeat their arguments.

What does it matter, they censor us anyways and don't allow us to debate, if we present fact, they completely ignore the statements and go back to the offensive so we're on the defensive. I tried commenting on Obamas youtube thing and all comments are approved.

This is what they want, just like the neo nazis, they want to come out with the whole "your going to hear what we have to say and then you can refute it later", but by then, the damage has been done because people have already sucked up their excrement.

So, what's your suggestion?

We know that challenging people based on statements alone isn't going to work especially in their own backyard, and screaming contests don't always work because the other is sabotaged and not taken seriously, but perhaps expose some of the statements liberals are making, let people question these statements, the idea isn't to prove the enemy wrong because they are mindset, but let the fencesitters realize how irrational the leftists arguments are when they question the statements. For example, have people question "CHANGE", how is Obama going to change anything? He isn't. People will bring up the healthcare plan and iraq, I just proved a number of liberals wrong when they said Obama was against the patriot act and I showed them his voting record where he voted for the patriot act, the only answer democrats could give is that he was "tricked into it" and a few fencesitters realized how silly that sounded.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Anyways, i've rethought my statement and perhaps it was a bit overboard, but people like that are a real danger to the Jews and need to be silenced or they will drag us down like a anchor and take the rest of the boat down with it.

They need to be debated and defeated, not silenced.  But I will admit that they can do much harm to the Jewish community.  That is why we have to defeat their arguments.

I'll go along with that.  By the way, check out MasterWolf's post.  I think he discovered something remarkable.

What does it matter, they censor us anyways and don't allow us to debate, if we present fact, they completely ignore the statements and go back to the offensive so we're on the defensive. I tried commenting on Obamas youtube thing and all comments are approved.

This is what they want, just like the neo nazis, they want to come out with the whole "your going to hear what we have to say and then you can refute it later", but by then, the damage has been done because people have already sucked up their excrement.

So, what's your suggestion?

We know that challenging people based on statements alone isn't going to work especially in their own backyard, and screaming contests don't always work because the other is sabotaged and not taken seriously, but perhaps expose some of the statements liberals are making, let people question these statements, the idea isn't to prove the enemy wrong because they are mindset, but let the fencesitters realize how irrational the leftists arguments are when they question the statements. For example, have people question "CHANGE", how is Obama going to change anything? He isn't. People will bring up the healthcare plan and iraq, I just proved a number of liberals wrong when they said Obama was against the patriot act and I showed them his voting record where he voted for the patriot act, the only answer democrats could give is that he was "tricked into it" and a few fencesitters realized how silly that sounded.

[White Israelite]

Shalom,

I spent last Shabbat in Berkeley, CA.

I know that will shock a lot of people {maybe? ! ?}. There is a very nice orthodox community in Berkeley and for Berkeley standards it is pretty conservative and even pro-Israel. I am so glad we did not bring up politics over Shabbat because although I know that my Rabbi said he would not vote of Obama I am afraid that some of the minyan might be pro-Obama.

I know they knew my political position and in the little discussion with my Rabbi before davening we were talking about the situation regarding Iran and nuclear proliferation. I believe he knows that we must do something and this is why he is hesitant about Obama. Others who I know are liberals on most topics are somewhat muted about their happiness with Obama.

muman613

Unfortunately I lost a lot of friends from Chicago who are voting for Obama, we had a lot of political disputes. They call themselves Jews but you wouldn't know it looking at them. They rather impress the people their with then actually do something about Israel or to work towards preservation of the Jewish people. Their the type that tells someone to their face one thing to make them happy, and then says something else to another individuals face so that everyones happy while holding down their own people (the Jews) telling us "we need to be more tolerant", pfffft.

I've disowned my fathers entire family, my uncles/aunts/cousins. They were the type that went to synagogue, supposedly kept kosher, kept sabbath, but then when no ones watching, would sneak some pork or change the price tags on a product at the store to cheat someone. They might be considered Jewish at birth, but they don't act like Jews.

That's why i'm saying, just because someone has the label of being Jewish doesn't make them a righteous person and it really bugs me because they project an image of Jews that I don't think any of us would find acceptable nor would we want to be identified with.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Shalom,

I spent last Shabbat in Berkeley, CA.

I know that will shock a lot of people {maybe? ! ?}. There is a very nice orthodox community in Berkeley and for Berkeley standards it is pretty conservative and even pro-Israel. I am so glad we did not bring up politics over Shabbat because although I know that my Rabbi said he would not vote of Obama I am afraid that some of the minyan might be pro-Obama.

I know they knew my political position and in the little discussion with my Rabbi before davening we were talking about the situation regarding Iran and nuclear proliferation. I believe he knows that we must do something and this is why he is hesitant about Obama. Others who I know are liberals on most topics are somewhat muted about their happiness with Obama.

muman613

Unfortunately I lost a lot of friends from Chicago who are voting for Obama, we had a lot of political disputes. They call themselves Jews but you wouldn't know it looking at them. They rather impress the people their with then actually do something about Israel or to work towards preservation of the Jewish people. Their the type that tells someone to their face one thing to make them happy, and then says something else to another individuals face so that everyones happy while holding down their own people (the Jews) telling us "we need to be more tolerant", pfffft.

I've disowned my fathers entire family, my uncles/aunts/cousins. They were the type that went to synagogue, supposedly kept kosher, kept sabbath, but then when no ones watching, would sneak some pork or change the price tags on a product at the store to cheat someone. They might be considered Jewish at birth, but they don't act like Jews.

That's why i'm saying, just because someone has the label of being Jewish doesn't make them a righteous person and it really bugs me because they project an image of Jews that I don't think any of us would find acceptable nor would we want to be identified with.

I'll be honest with you, it disturbs me also.  But it is enough of a challenge for me to keep myself and my wife and children righteous.  I can try to convince people through persuasion, but I have no illusion that I have the power to change them.

[takebackourtemple]

Of course not every single Jew who survived the Holocaust is bad, but the majority are, or have become, leftists.

   I don't agree with this statement. When I said that some are, I only had a few in mind. I think we should give most of them the benefit of any doubt since going through this didn't inherently make them evil and the only thing wrong that they did was not go to Israel. Of course any person, Jew or not that participated in the Kristalnacht looting should burn for it.
    The Jews that I was referring to are some of the Rich people in New York who profitted off of this. In particular I had in mind Arthur Schneier YS"Z. After living through the Holocaust, he collected money for so called Holocaust rememberance causes but impeded Rabbi Kahane's attempts to free soviet Jews and had Chaim arrested for protecting against the soviets in his so called synagogue were Russian Anti-Semites were welcome, but patriotic Jews were not. He has donated money to Hillary Clinton and to this day hosts anti-semites as guests of honor.