Author Topic: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum  (Read 9700 times)

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Offline muman613

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Recently we had a debate concerning why Judaism establishes Matrilinear Descent. This article from Breslev.co.il does a good job of discussing the reasons.


http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/torah_portion/chanas_blessing/a_mothers_essence_vaetchanan.aspx?id=12492&language=english

Parashat Va’etchanan
WHO IS A JEW?
 
The issue of “who is a Jew?” arouses much debate. In the wake of numerous immigrants entering Israel, the subject has taken on new relevance, since many of them are intermarried. Naturally, people who have been persecuted due to their Jewish ancestry feel the right to enjoy the privileges of being Jewish as well. Not everyone is ready to accept that the Jewish lineage depends solely on the mother, and that, according to Halacha (Jewish law), a child born to a gentile mother is not considered Jewish, even if the father is Jewish. The popular explanation that only the identity of the mother can be ascertained is no longer valid in our time, since the identity of the father can now be verified through genetic tests.
 
THE SON OF A GENTILE MOTHER
 
The Scriptural source for the law of “who is a Jew?” is found in this week’s parashah:  “Neither shall you intermarry with them; your daughter you shall not give unto his son, nor his daughter shall you take unto your son. For he will turn away your son from following Me, that they may serve other gods...” (Devarim 7:3-4) Scripture speaks here of two cases of intermarriage:
 
1) A Jewess becomes the wife of a gentile.
 
2) A Jew becomes the husband of a gentile woman.
 
It is not quite clear from the verse who will be the one to turn the other away from following G-d. If the verse referred to the negative influence of the non-Jewish party over his/her Jewish spouse, then we would expect two parallel statements expressing the reason for the prohibition.
 
1) “For he will turn away your daughter from following Me.”
 
2) “For she will turn away your son from following Me.”
 
Yet, Scripture mentions neither of these two cases, stating only the following unexpected third possibility: “For he will turn away your son from following Me,” Rashi explains that “he” refers to the gentile husband of the Jewess, but who is then “your son?” that this gentile man may turn away from following Hashem? “Your son” then must refer to your descendant the son of your daughter, who is at risk of being turned away from the Torah path by his non-Jewish father. Grandchildren are often called children in Scripture (See Rashi, Bereishit 20:12). This teaches us that only the son of a Jewess and a gentile father is called “your son,” but the son of a non-Jewish mother with a Jewish father is not defined as your son. Therefore, in regards to the statement,“his daughter you shall not take to your son”, it does not add, “for she will turn away your son (grandson) from following Me”, since Scripturedoes not consider the son of this gentile mother “your son” because he does not belong by birth to the Jewish people. The Halacha follows Rashi’s explanation which is supported by the Talmud stating, “The son from a Jewish mother is called your son, but the son from a gentile mother is not called your son” (Kiddushin 68b). Based on this source, Rambam establishes as Halacha that a child born of a gentile woman is not considered Jewish (Prohibited Relationships, chapter 12, halacha 7).
 
THE MOTHER GIVES OVER HER ESSENCE                                                   
 
How do we explain the fact that only the mother determines the Jewishness of her children? What magic power does the mother have to influence her children more than the father? Rabbeinu Bachaya on Bereishit 29:25 explains that the mother gives over her essence to her offspring. This is why the matriarchs named their children, as the name expresses a person’s essence. Rachel's children inherited her craft of silence. When Ya’acov sent her gifts, Lavan took them and gave them to Leah, yet Rachel remained silent. Therefore, all her children were masters of silence. Binyamin, the son of Rachel, knew that Yosef was sold, but kept silent. Esther, from the tribe of Binyamin, son of Rachel, did not reveal the identity of her people   (Megillah 13b). Leah was the master of the craft of thanksgiving and praise (hodaya). Therefore, all her children were masters of hodaya, as it states, “Yehudah, your brothers shall praise you” (yoducha) (Bereishit 49:8). David, her descendant, said: “O Give thanks to Hashem...” (Tehillim 136:1)
 
A SPACE WITHIN HER
 
The Imrei Shefer compares the womb, to the mikvah, which has the capacity to convert a person to Judaism. He explains that the mother determines the spiritual genetics of the Jewish people because of the great impact the womb has on the unborn child. The fact that the mother carries the baby within her reveals her capacity to carry on the Jewish lineage. The mother is characterized as one who makes space within herself for another being to grow. This ultimate kindness which continues throughout the role of motherhood can be compared to the way G-d created the world. In order to allow the existence of the Universe, G-d, so to speak, had to constrict His own essence and make space for something other than Himself. This is the secret of the “tzimtzum” (constriction) explained by our kabbalistic masters. When pouring wine out from a glass, a reshimo (residue) adheres to the glass. Likewise, when G-d made space within Himself, a drop of Divinity remained within the vacuum. This imprint affects G-d's creation and imbues it with His essence. By sacrificing her own personal space for the sake of her unborn baby, the mother imparts her essence to her offspring in the same way that G-d, by constricting Himself, imparts His essence to mankind - the crown of His Creation. This explains why the mother is the carrier of the Jewish lineage.
 
 
(Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum is Director of Midreshet B’erot Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion. Her full book on the weekly Torah portion can be ordered from [email protected] . There are also still dedication opportunities available)
And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

Offline DĂșnadan

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 11:43:33 PM »
Ok, good post.

Now: my mom was born Roman Catholic (she is Atheist now, though), and all her family is descended from Asturians (North Spaniards) and North Italians. I'm absolutely proud of that lineage, by the way.
My paternal side is Ashkenazi. Though Atheists by religion, they are still Jews.

Am I a Jew?
I don't know, you tell me

Do I want to be a Jew?
No, I don't "want" to be a Jew, I'm not religious, I don't do Sabbath and I don't eat Kosher (even though I don't like pork and don't eat it). Still, I like most Ashkenazi traditions and history. I'm proud of my Ashkenazi lineage too, and I like Poland and Russia as nations.

Am I Zionist?
Yes, I'm a radical Zionist. I 100% support Israel and I like some Kahanists (but I don't like the JDL that much). I support the Jewish Task Front, obviously.


I just don't see that the message of the Torah and Talmud are that precious. I mean, acording to the Torah, Jews are a diasporic people that need to be in an eternal diaspora. Why? Why can't Jews have a homeland now?
If anybody watched Defiance, the movie, when they see the marsh, Tuvia is actually hoping for a miracle. His brother says "Tuvia! G-d will not part this waters, we have to do it ourselves!"
"But how?"
"Not by miracles! By our strenght!"

That's why I think that being religious is not that important. I want to preserve Ashkenazi traditions as an European nation that was essential in the development of Europe and thus the West as a whole, but I won't sit here waiting for G-d to make things for me
Let him choose another people, Jews suffered enough already. I mean, where was he in the Second World War? The Jews who survived didn't wait for miracles, they survived by their own strenght as a group.
I also think that while Ashkenazi, Sefaradi and Mizrahi Jews should all work together in Israel united as Jews, each group should have the right to preserve their own identity. Arabic should be no longer an official language in Israel, the official languages should be Hebrew and Yiddish (yes, Yiddish, they were and are a mayority, why shouldn't they have their language as official?)

Anyway, if I was a little bit agressive or offensive, please, believe me: I don't mean that. I don't mean any disrespect for religious Jews or anything, it's just my own, personal opinion. Thanks for understanding.

By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!

Moshe92

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 12:17:49 AM »
Dunadan, you are not Jewish if your mother isn't Jewish. You don't have to observe Jewish law. In your post, you associate religious Jews with doing nothing and waiting for miracles. There are some religious Jews who want to do nothing and wait for miracles, but that's not what Judaism is all about. Rabbi Tarfon said in Pirkei Avot, "It is not your part to finish the task, yet you are not free to desist from it." You also wrote that the Torah says that Jews need to be in an eternal diaspora. That's not true. Living in Israel is a requirement in Judaism.  There are some anti-zionists who oppose leaving the exile now, but even they don't believe that the Jews will eternally be in exile. One more point is that Jews of all backgrounds need to be unified. Ashkenazim, mizrachim, Sefaradim, teimanim, etc. all have the same Torah.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 12:23:02 AM by Moshe92 »

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Offline DĂșnadan

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 05:08:05 PM »
Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then? What if a Rabbi discovers that?
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from Slavic tribes (actually some Ashkenazis consider themselves Slavs) as well as Khazars and Germanic tribed. Russian Jews are totally Russian. And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc).
And all of this is if you consider only the Hebrews to be Jews (which is a fair point, of course)

And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).

By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!

Moshe92

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 05:12:59 PM »
Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then? What if a Rabbi discovers that?
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from Slavic tribes (actually some Ashkenazis consider themselves Slavs) as well as Khazars and Germanic tribed. Russian Jews are totally Russian. And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc).
And all of this is if you consider only the Hebrews to be Jews (which is a fair point, of course)

And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).

By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?

I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.

Offline DĂșnadan

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 05:22:12 PM »
I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.

Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly, if not solely descended from tribes in Eastern Europe. It's not a matter of admixture, it's a matter of conversion.
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!

Moshe92

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 05:28:36 PM »
I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.

Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly, if not solely descended from tribes in Eastern Europe. It's not a matter of admixture, it's a matter of conversion.

That's anti-semitic propaganda. How did they "prove" that Ashkenazim are descended mostly from converts?

Offline muman613

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 05:33:39 PM »
DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.

What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...

And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 01:13:59 PM »
DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.

What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...



Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?

Who cares about genes? It proved to be [censored], that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!

Moshe92

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 01:35:54 PM »
DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.

What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...



Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?

Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement, that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.

Those people are self-hating Jews. Their ideas are anti-semitic.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 03:48:15 PM »
and genes change with aging.

LOL, BS.   You clearly know nothing about genetics.   What you've written here is a gross distortion.   And don't start your lying bs about "oh but some genes do get damaged in aging" yadda yadda yadda, I know what you're referring to but to present it as you did is a massive distortion.   Games played by the ignorant to confuse other ignorant....

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 04:00:11 PM »
Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then?

No.  Then you wouldn't be.  Despite what you might have thought.   But this rarely if ever happens.   Jewish ancestry is pretty consistent.  It is only the last handful of generations where intermarriage has become so rampant, and coinciding with that, Jews have become delusional about who is born a Jew and who isn't.   We never thought that way.   We used to know what marriage produces a Jewish child and what one does not.   They didn't 'fight the rabbis' over that or create new religions like Reform/Deform Judaism.  They just left the fold.

Quote
What if a Rabbi discovers that?

Whether you yourself discover it or your rabbi, or a doctor or a garbage man, the truth is the truth.

Quote
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from

Is there a point to anything you're saying?  Jews lived in Eastern Europe in a variety of places and "ethnicity" was not kept entirely distinct.  This happened in every diaspora in every location, not just to Ashkenazim.

Quote
Jews are totally Russian.

No, they aren't.

Quote
And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc). 

Most who can go back a few generations cannot find such a thing and that's because in the vast majority of cases, it does not exist.  You can't find something (a non-Jewish ancestor by maternal side) that does not exist.   But Jews back then were smart.   They KNEW that if they married a non Jewish woman, their kid is not Jewish.   They didn't play pretend or try to distort Judaism like some do today because they feel guilty about disconnecting themselves from the line of Jewish tradition.   Jews were rather insular, not only did they prefer to marry Jewish, most goyim (and their religions) did not allow them to intermarry or refused to marry Jews.

Quote
And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).

You say something arbitrary with no fact behind it, so I'll reply with something equally arbitrary, but at least partially truthful, unlike in your case.   Most Jews, especially French Jews say that the only real Jews are those who have a Jewish mother or converted, and that Jews in Israel have made a great self-sacrifice to merit the land of Israel.   Ok...  Why exactly should I care what you think most American Jews think (they don't think that, btw).  And who cares what I think French Jews think?

Quote
By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?

Yes.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 04:01:56 PM »
I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.

Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved,

No, they didn't prove.   The academic consensus is overwhelmingly against them.  You don't honestly believe they proved or else you are just intellectually lazy and refuse to look at the work that refutes them.   If you don't honestly believe it but type it here anyway to mislead people, you're a liar and propagandist.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 04:04:20 PM »

Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?

Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement,


Now you are completely mixed up in your lies.   On the one hand you want to say the hell with genetics and throw science out the window because it's too consistent with truth for you to handle.   On the other hand, you want to say that koestler et al scientifically "proved" descent of the Jews from some tribe..... LOL:  And how exactly does one PROVE DESCENT without consulting genetics, considering genetic studies or genetic inheritance?   Magic ancestor voodoo?     LOL.    You're a clown.

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 04:13:09 PM »
What you fail to realize is that Jews were in places like Italy, France, and Germany well before any Khazar King or his conversion or that of his govt ministers.    Afterall, how would they have any idea what to CONVERT TO if there were no Jews around anywhere in Europe?   LOL.   You people operate in a illogic vacuum.   

REAL HISTORIANS show that likely there was a mixed population of Jew and gentile in Khazaria (before the famous 3-religion "dispute") who were friendly with each other, and Jews there had more assimilationist tendency, there were also Muslims in Khazaria, but the kingdom bordered the edges of the Moslem and Xtian empires on either side and identified with neither.   They decided to turn their kingdom into a modified Jewish state to compete with their neighbors.  Yes there was some type of rabbinic dispute/competition as the legend of the Kuzari records and khazarian historical records indicate, but likely the conversion and choice of Judaism was also politically motivated.   Many of the people converted, but the Jews didn't need to, obviously.   This society interacted with Jews in Egypt and other places, they didn't last very long because of overambition in conquest, and like I said, Jews already existed firmly in other places in Europe before (and after) the rise and fall of the tiny Jewish khazarian empire.   (To its credit, the little Khazar kingdom blocked the spread of Islam in Europe!)     If many of those who converted did so without sincerity, it is unlikely they kept their newfound faith after the fall and destruction of the khazar empire.

Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS!     That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism.   Where do you think those rabbis came from?   LOL

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 04:22:17 PM »
I looked at my family tree and it is 100% Jewish going back at least 100+ years {after that we lose track}. My family was established in Jewish communities in Poland and in Ukraine in the 1800s.

And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2009, 04:22:23 PM »
DĂșnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted. But the Khazar theory is completely wrong. I am not sure if you believe it yourself because first you said the Jews from Russia are "totally Russians" then you said Ashkenazi Jews (and without a doubt the russian Jews are ashkenazi Jews) are Khazars.

In any case, the Kazar theory is a total lie. The Ashkenazi jews originate (as a distinct sub group of Jewry) from western Europe, from communities in the Rhine region that is now part of France and Germany. These Jews were gradually pushed out of western europe by persecutions and crusades. They settled in central and eastern Europe, in Poland, Lithuania, Prussia, Romania, Hungary etc. And they only became Russian subject due to the Russian expansion into Poland, The Ukraine, Romania and the Baltics.

The Khazar Jews didn't survive as a distinct community. Only or mostly the nobility class of the Kazars converted to Judaism. And after they have been subjugated by Russians, Mongols and Persians, they didn't survive as a distinct Jewish community.

Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 05:43:09 PM »
I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.

And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.


Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.

Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)


DĂșnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted

Fair, this is true

Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS!     That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism.   Where do you think those rabbis came from?   LOL

And did I never denied this?


My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 05:51:43 PM by DĂșnadan »
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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2009, 05:51:08 PM »
I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.

And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.


Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.

Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)


My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.

So what is your point?

Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.

We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.

And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

Offline DĂșnadan

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2009, 05:53:38 PM »
So what is your point?

Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.

We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.



I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.
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Offline Spectator

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2009, 06:18:30 PM »
I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.
This is improbable. As KWRBT pointed out, the the opinion you mentioned is rejected by most of the researchers. Also, take into account that conversion to Judaism is not an easy thing. It takes several years of serious study and practice. Besides, the Jews were persecuted and hated minority, there were very few people who could decide to be a Jew.
Look also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Quote
The theory that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various racial theorists and antisemitic sources in the late-19th and 20th centuries, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.[32][33][34] Despite recent genetic evidence to the contrary,[1] and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support,[35] this belief is still popular among antisemites.[36][37]

 
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2009, 06:58:24 PM »
So what is your point?

Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.

We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.



I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.


But (and you say you don't deny this) there were Jews in Rome, Italy, France, Germany, "ashkenaz" (that referred to a specific area in Germany), before the khazar period, and those Jews came from the dispersion in the destruction of the Temple, and after the failed Bar Kochba revolt.  And during the Byzantines' persecution of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael.   Those were real Jews, who did something called MIGRATION.   When a Jew moves from one place to another, he does not cease being a Jew.   He does not suddenly become a descendent of slavs because he moved in with them.    MOST of the European Jews are descended from these Jewish upstart groups who were insulated, distinct from the surrounding nonJewish populations (there was enmity and cultural disagreements between the two sides as well) and had real talmidei chachamim to lead their communities in maintaining Jewish tradition as a group.    Their populations grew, especially at a rapid pace since in the beginning they even customarily had multiple wives (until Rabenu Gershom's ban), and the people passed on Jewish tradition.  They didn't desire to become gentiles.

For instance, Rabenu Gershom, Rashi.  They were only following a tradition of Torah scholars before them.  And the Jewish populace looked to this people for guidance.  The leadership of world Jewry shifted from the major Babylonian diaspora yeshivot to these various talmidei chachamim who led these communities, after the Talmud was written and publicized and the Babel Jewish population and scholarship fell apart.    Call them "settlers" in the real sense, that Europe is not our land, we were guests there.    SOME European Jews are descended from converts who joined up to these real living communities of Jews, etc...     

On my mother's side, all of my great-great grandparents were Jewish and had Jewish parents and family that they left behind when they came to America.   This is likely a common situation for American Jews whose families immigrated to the US sometime in the 1800's.  My great grandparents (the children of that generation) were all practicing Jews in America.   People don't just wake up and say 'oh I'm a Jew now even though I'm really slavic.'   It comes from something.   You're given a bris, bar mitzvah, your parents /grandparents keep shabbat etc.... It's not some big secret.   

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2009, 09:45:36 PM »
DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.

What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...



Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?

Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement, that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.

BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot.   I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot....   LOL.   Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.

Offline DĂșnadan

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2009, 10:01:32 PM »

BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot.   I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot....   LOL.   Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.

He says Yiddish is a combination between Slavic and German. Doesn't sounds illogical to me.
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!