Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
muman613:
--- Quote from: EagleEye on December 15, 2009, 09:56:46 PM ---Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew. For karaite Jews, they still go by the father. It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother. At one point in history, it was the father. Then the law changed. Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.
The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew. It allows you to return to Israel. But it still considers you a Gentile. You live as a Gentile among Jews. But you can convert if you really want to.
--- End quote ---
I do not know what you are talking about here... At what point in history was it like this? Not according to Jewish law which is recorded in the Talmud, and not according to Torah, which as we pointed out before is clear about this.
Please provide some evidence of what you are talking about here. Thank you...
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/
--- Quote ---Nathan Silberstein from Los Angeles, CA wrote:
Dear Rabbi,
What is the halachic source of matrilineal descent? Why are we set against patrilineal descent when all of our ancestors in the Torah are referred to as so and so son of so and so, referring only to the father's name?
Dear Nathan Silberstein,
In the time of the Patriarchs it appears that descent followed the father. However, the period of the Patriarchs was before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. It was only with the revelation on Sinai that the Jewish people received their legal system. Therefore it is impossible to bring Halachic, legal proofs from the Patriarchs. Our source for Halacha is the Written and Oral Torah.
The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.
The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 68b, derives this Halacha from a verse in Deuteronomy 7:1-5, which also contains the prohibition against intermarriage. "When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the land that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites... And you shall not marry with them; do not give your daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. For he will turn your son away from me and they will worship other gods...." The Talmud points out that the verse only seems to be concerned with the son of the Israelite woman being turned away, "for he (the gentile)" will turn your son away. It does not seem to be concerned that "she (the gentile) will turn your son away." The implication is that the son of the Jewish woman and gentile man is still considered "your (the Jewish grandfather in this case) son," but in the case of a gentile woman married to a Jewish man, the child is not considered "your son" and therefore there is no concern about his turning away. This follows Rashi and Tosfot Ri Hazaken in their explanation of the Gemara.
Tosfot (ad loc. "Amar krah") offers a number of different methods of derivation from the verse, but agrees with the conclusion. This law is also found in the Mishna in Yevamot (ch. 2, 21a): "He counts as a brother in every respect unless he was the son of a maidservant or of a gentile woman."
This halacha is codified in the Code of Jewish Law, Even HaEzer 8:5, and in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships, 15:4. Maimonides states: "This is the general rule: The status of an offspring from a gentile man or from a gentile woman is the same as his mother's; we disregard the father."
Another source in the Torah is the verse in Leviticus 24:10: "the son of an Israelite woman went out - and he was the son of an Egyptian man." This person is described as being "in the midst of the community of Israel" - in other words, Jewish.
Probably the most explicit verse against patrilineal descent is in the book of Ezra 10:2-3: Some of the Jews who had returned from the exile declare, "We have trespassed against our G-d and have taken foreign wives of the people of the land. Yet, there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Therefore, let us make a covenant with our G-d to put away all the wives and such as are born to them, according to the counsel of the L-rd and of those who assemble at the commandment of G-d; let it be done according to the law."
Sources are also in Midrash Rabbah, Numbers, 19, and Jerusalem Talmud, Kiddushin 3:12.
Do we ignore the father completely? Certainly not. The father is the one who determines what tribe the child is from. That is: Kohen, Levi, Yisrael. Also, in determining royalty and other leadership roles among the Jewish people we go from father to son.
--- End quote ---
EagleEye:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F
I know I read this elsewhere too. If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.
Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community. Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: EagleEye on December 15, 2009, 09:56:46 PM ---Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew. For karaite Jews, they still go by the father. It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother. At one point in history, it was the father. Then the law changed. Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.
The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew. It allows you to return to Israel. But it still considers you a Gentile. You live as a Gentile among Jews. But you can convert if you really want to.
--- End quote ---
No, that's only a theory. The closest thing to this is in the days of Avraham, every person who would join his "camp", would turn Jewish (meaning that Hagar also was Jewish). But then again, it wasn't about what you're talking about.
Ka'arites are going after the father since it's a Minhag Kdu'mim (Custom of the ancient), and nothing more. They also bow down on their nees like Minhag Eretz Israel (like the nations who were here until our arrival were worshipping), when they're praying, so?
I live in Israel and I know that what you're saying is false. If none of your grandparents if Jewish, then you're a Gentile only then according to the law of return. But if your dad is Jewish, then you are Jewish.
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: EagleEye on December 16, 2009, 01:39:07 AM ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F
I know I read this elsewhere too. If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.
Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community. Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.
--- End quote ---
Wikipedia is the worst "source" you can ever give, this is one hell of an Atheistic/Agnostic so-called intelletual-loving website, please give normal resources, from Jewish websites.
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
Btw EagleEye, are you Jewish?
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