A Secular Jew's Yom Kippor Story

[New Yorker]

Muck DeFuslims, great post, and I can totally relate, I could have written that title post myself.

On Yom Kippor I didn't go to synagogue either, (I did fast though, I do have respect after all). Why didn't I go? I lead a generally secular life, I don't read or understand Hebrew, and I rationally decided that to be there while everyone is praying in a language I don't understand while I count the tiles on the ceiling is far from being spiritual or any closer to G-d, and like you, I am not a hypocrite. And I agree with you about the deformed "Jews", in my estimation, it's better to be a respectful secular Jew, than to be a member of the deformed MOCKERY of Judaism, if one is going to practice Judaism they should DO IT RIGHT, or not at all, lets be real, being secular but having respect, is FAR better than being a phony Jew; As for the after life, we'd get into Paradise far faster than any deformed "Jew" gets in, we don't observe 100% but at least we don't willfully directly distort the religion, what they are doing is crime against Judaism, I feel for their kids because they are being taught that false "Judaism" and the innocent children don't know any better.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I question Pascal because his wager is  a faulty one. It works when there are but two equally reasonable choices. But if many thousands exist, his conclusion loses all merit.

But you're making it into a mathematical equation, which it really isn't.  It's philosophical.  It's not "proof" or some kind of empirical formula.  It's an idea.

for your claim of a group experience in terms of religious testimony may just as fairly be applied to Islam and Christianity.

How so?  They don't claim a national revelation experience.   Islam only claims that an angel appeared to Muhammad in a dream in a cave.   And christianity claims something about Jesus and maybe a disciple or I'm not sure what.  But not a group revelatory experience at a mountain.  Nor a group exodus from Egypt.

Given that in any such tradition practicing the others is essentially a sentence for hell (or gehenom as the case may be), none is a more compelling wager than Atheism.

I've read this argument from atheists before, but it reflects ignorance.  In all faiths, any other religion goes to hell?  Gee, that's not what Judaism believes.   I don't think that's what Islam believes either, although I could be wrong, but who cares.   Pascal was arguing from the point of view of christianity, true, but he was arguing for a belief in G-d.  Not any complex theological stance or particular faith.   It was about belief in G-d. 

Regardless of any of this, it's rather irrelevant to Judaism.   I don't think you "go to gehinnom" in Judaism if you are not convinced about the truth of G-d or Torah or have a sometimes wavering faith.   You are obligated to keep the mitzvot.   You can generally believe what you believe as long as you believe the reality that you're bound to keep mitzvot, and you keep them.   If you search and search and are tortured that you can't get yourself to really believe in x, y or z aspect about Judaism, or about G-d, that is not necessarily that you're going to gehinnom if it's an honest search.   There is punishment for doing evil, and for not doing mitzvot you miss out. 

As to your point about certainty and lack thereof, it is true not all things are equally suspect. For instance, it is far more likely that Obama was born outside of the US than it is you'll contract AIDS without being sexually active, a drug abuser, or receiving a blood transfusion, as the former is reasonably probable and the latter essentially impossible. But in the context of our discussion, I am equally skeptical of all religions because I see no evidence that indicates I should feel otherwise.

I wasn't talking about "evidence" per se, but more about the claims each of the religions make.   They are very different.   Do you acknowledge that?   Like I said, you can say you don't believe, but you can't equate their claims because that's dishonest.   Judaism is a national claim and the Torah serves as a testimony to the national experience.  I'm not saying that's bulletproof or because of that 'you're blind if you don't believe in what it says,' or all of that is literal etc, I'm saying that that is far more credible or believable than a theological dogma that someone claims was whispered into his ear one night while no one was looking, and therefore you must follow it.  Can you see the difference between those two things?

 he said it was, "because the world still makes it an advantage not to be one. Thus it becomes a matter of pride...." As long as their is anti-Semitism, which exists in great measure today, I will stand tall and defend my heritage.

That seems rather vindictive.

Yet sensible...   That is, until antisemitism ceases to exist, and then you could drop your "front."  In that hypothetical, your current position seems very not sensible.

Anti-Semitism is a constant, thus rendering your point irrelevant.

LOL, what makes it a constant?   There is nothing rational about such a claim.   The Talmud claims the principle Esav hates Yacov is a principle governing the universe and this underlies antisemitism and why it won't disappear.  But why would someone who doesn't believe in Torah or Judaism (or anything not empirical/pure-rational) make such a wild claim that antisemitism will never go away?  In a rational point of view, it could go away by next year if people change their minds about things and see the world differently.  Like that's never happened before in history?  Come on.   You are proving my point that your beliefs, however grounded in logic and math formulas you claim them to be, ultimately depend on dogmatic principles.   Maybe of your own creation, but dogmatic principles nonetheless.

[takebackourtemple]

   YK is one of the holidays where Jews are forgiven for their sins. Even when they don't deserve it, they can do tshuva. My rabbis always tell stories of the moranos during YK. Some of the non chabadnik orthodox would look down on the moranos for converting to Christianity, but YK was the one holiday of the year that the moranos were welcome to come for services by these synagogues. This was the time of the year that many Moranos could say that they were really Jewish even though they were living the rest of their lives in sin. This was the only thing holding their neshamas in tact.
   I hope the business man has better priorities next year. At least he did not participate with the pagan/conservative/deformed temple so he didn't hit rock bottom. I'm not kidding, but the one time I went to a fake synagogue on YK or RH I forgot, the fake rabbi kept adding Mohammad's commentary to everything. This was a large congregation that was very respected by the community. A lot of orthodox people can be non-judgmental about this because they have never actually been to services at one of these places. While being non judgmental towards individuals is often beneficial to bringing the people closer to hashem, it is a different story for organizations that are out to destroy neshamas or people who are claiming to be rabbis when they are not.

   

[The One and Only Mo]

The same source (Torah) that says you're Jewish also commands you to observe everything else in the source. It's never too late. I've been shomer shabbos for a year now, so you never know. If you don't observe Torah, you are gambling on the afterlife, and it's always better to be on the safe side. You might have something inside of you that needs to be opened up.

That's pascal's wager, and it is faulty reasoning. After all, we must consider the odds. 50/50 chance there is a G-d, and if so, another 50/50 chance it isn't of the deistic variety. So there is a 25% chance that we need to be reverent of a divine for our own good. If that is the case, we again have a 50/50 question of whether there is a correct religion or not. If not, we can only speculate as to the correct course. If there is, then we have no cause to believe a particular faith is more likely to be correct. That is, the odds favor Judaism no more than Hinduism or Islam, or any of the thousands of other religions. Now, considering how many faiths regard rival doctrines as even worse than atheism/agnosticism, you are more likely to suffer a worse end by practicing any faith at all.

Of course, I say this as an Orthodox Jew turned Atheist. The statistical question is a logical calculation, and faith by definition is not reliant on logic, but on belief in the unverified.

This is a sad posting. Judaism is a faith which has much wisdom, much more than those 'other' religions. The prophecies of Torah have come true, unlike prophecies of 'other' religions. It is also sad that someone turns their back on Judaism, it is a way of rebellion against G-d. The Jewish people are special in G-ds eye. You have turned away and will have to deal with the judgment at the end of days.

I only hope that you do Teshuva and don't turn other Jews away from the faith because of your bad example.

PS: Hashem exists just as much as I exist, only his existence is much more real than my existence. The world would not exist if not for the creator. The world did not just happen out of chance.

And is is faulty 'logic' to believe that just because you turned away from Judaism that the nations will still not judge you as a Jew as much as you wish you weren't one...

And why would you consider yourself a Kahanist if you don't believe the Jewish people have a G-d mandated right to live in the Holy Land... It is incongruous to me.

Well, I would hope that as one who willingly identifies themselves in religious terms as Jewish that the faith to you is comparatively more rational and correct, as otherwise you'd have no cause to practice it. But that doesn't mean your claims are objectively valid. They aren't. Or, if they are, I'd ask that you prove them.

As to my Jewishness, I continue to identify myself publicly as a member of the tribe for the reasons stated by Professor Fred Lieberman in The Gentleman's Agreement. In response to the question of why he, being non-religious, would be open about his identity, he said it was, "because the world still makes it an advantage not to be one. Thus it becomes a matter of pride...." As long as their is anti-Semitism, which exists in great measure today, I will stand tall and defend my heritage. And I do see plenty of value in the non-religious bits of Jewish culture. For that matter, while I'm not at all a fan of the faith, I do admit its impact on world history is undeniable (though how positive a force it has been could be debated by reasonable men). With all that being said, I don't identify as religiously Jewish because I do not believe in G-d, or the sacred status of the Torah, and or anything else that would make such an identification appropriate. I am well aware that Jewish law prevents leaving the faith, and that if correct I'll be judged for my heresy. That is a risk I am willing to take, for I see no cause to believe.

I label myself as a Kahanist for the simple reason that, religious concerns aside, I believe his political aims were largely correct. I know enough about Islam from reading its sacred texts and studying its history to know that it is a force for evil that threatens the Jewish community and our homeland as long as it remains in our midst. Accordingly, I support population transfer and re-asserting the Jewish character of the State of Israel. And I realize that our Islamic neighbors have no desire for peace, and are not capable of it. Thus, I likewise agree with Kahane about land for peace schemes. Understand that many who supported the man were not Orthodox Jews, but were Atheists like I am, or practiced other faiths.

Supporting a Jewish homeland does not require that I be religious, but that I view Jews as a constituting a distinct nation as defined by the conventions of political science. And I do. Therefore, considering both that and the dangers of anti-Semitism found outside of Israel, I have ample cause to support a Jewish state. The location is not of critical importance per say, but our historic ties to the land and decades of work turning it from a desert swampland into an oasis, I am inclined to want to retain our present location. That requires dealing with the current problems of the land, which I believe are best solved by Kahanist foreign and security policy actions.

LOL, but the whole concept of Judaism comes from the Torah which comes from G-d. If there's no G-d, then there's no Torah, and no Jews.

I don't dispute that the origin of Jewish identity lies in religion. But cultures are not static. They evolve over time. And the Jewish people grew from a confederation of co-religionists into a developed nation with a distinct language, culture, ethnic identity, and genetic tendency. In other words, it has broadened in scope over time to include secular aspects that individuals like me can readily identify with and support.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry about that.

[takebackourtemple]

Muck DeFuslims, great post, and I can totally relate, I could have written that title post myself.

On Yom Kippor I didn't go to synagogue either, (I did fast though, I do have respect after all). Why didn't I go? I lead a generally secular life, I don't read or understand Hebrew, and I rationally decided that to be there while everyone is praying in a language I don't understand while I count the tiles on the ceiling is far from being spiritual or any closer to G-d, and like you, I am not a hypocrite.

   This is why beginner services and services at all levels are important. They're hard to find, but do exist. Services should never be boring, otherwise, they are not being done correctly. There is no reason that services have to be long unless the participants are at a level that they can pray for that amount of time. If you place a third grader in a calculus class, the third grader is not going to learn. Likewise, if you place a college student(excluding affirmative action morons who won't learn no matter where you place them) in a third grade math class, the college student is not going to learn the calculus that he needs. This doesn't rule out the potential for challenge. Some third graders might be able to handle a fourth grade class.
   Conservative and deformed congregations are not the answer either. If you place the third grader in a social studies class, he is not going to learn the math curriculum.
   See what you can do for Sukkot and Simchat torah. Maybe all you need to do is find the right place.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, you can show up to a place and spend a few moments between you and G-d privately regardless of what the congregation is doing.   Just share inner thoughts and commit to doing something good or whatever.   And then leave.  Even if it's not the format of the "service."    What's the harm in that?

Sincere prayer doesn't have to be 4 hours long, that's for sure.

[muman613]

Also, you can show up to a place and spend a few moments between you and G-d privately regardless of what the congregation is doing.   Just share inner thoughts and commit to doing something good or whatever.   And then leave.  Even if it's not the format of the "service."    What's the harm in that?

Sincere prayer doesn't have to be 4 hours long, that's for sure.

4 hours if you are lucky... Over Yom Kippur I must have logged about 11 hours of prayer...

Started at 9:30 on Monday morning finished by 3:30 (5 hours) then davened from 5:30 till about 8:30 (another 4 hours) for a total of 9 on Monday... I started Kol Nidre on Sunday night and the entire service was from 6:30 till about 8:30 (2 hours) and then we studied Torah till about 10 and got to sleep about 10:30...

This is the kind of davening which gets inspirational and perspirational...

[muman613]

I just found this Torah learning site which is for Women...

http://www.nishmat.net/index.php

Here is their About description:

About Us


"You peered through the glass ceiling and observed the heavens smiling and beckoning above. So, without fanfare, confrontation or acrimony, you gently lifted open a window in the ceiling and taught the rest of us that the sky is the limit if your heart is with Heaven."

Dr. Norman Lamm of Yeshiva University, upon conferring
an honorary doctorate upon Nishmat Dean Rabbanit Chana Henkin
Programs of Study

Nishmat students are serious about their Judaism. They expect to delve deeply into Torah learning. They aim to grow intellectually and spiritually. Nishmat unites native Israelis and Americans, Ethiopians and Europeans in a cohesive learning community. We seek to develop leaders to contribute to Jewish life. Nishmat offers intensive programs of text-based Torah study for beginners to advanced scholars. Whether you are probing your heritage for the first time, or have been learning Torah your whole life, Nishmat has a program for you. Click here to find out more.
Creating Leaders

Nishmat Founder Rabbanit Chana Henkin's pioneering efforts to open the highest reaches of Jewish learning to women have produced the Yoatzot Halacha, Jewish history's first women trained to address women's halachic issues. The Yoatzot have won widespread rabbinic support and public acclaim and are spearheading an enhanced contribution of women to religious life and leadership.

Nishmat's Women's Halachic Hotline, staffed by the Yoatzot Halacha, has received thousands of calls from Israel and abroad, on issues in taharat hamishpacha, intimate personal and family matters, as well as fertility and women's health. Under the supervision of rabbinical authorities, the Yoatzot contribute a woman's perspective to halachic questions, and enable women to feel ownership of their religious lives.
Click here to ask the yoetzet
Creating Educators

YACHDAV: A new kind of Jewish educator. Nishmat's groundbreaking YACHDAV program is training a new kind of Jewish educator. Yachdav students are preparing to teach Jewish studies in Israel's secular schools and connect secular Israeli youth with their Jewish roots. They are also learning how to reawaken spiritual excitement among religious high school youngsters, and to enable them to experience personal ownership of their Torah learning in a bet midrash environment.

"When we prepare to teach Tanach and Torah in secular schools, we break stereotypes about each other. They learn to respect our tradition, we learn about their lives. Learning together bridges the distance between us."

Merav Blumberg, Nishmat Yachdav Student, Karnei Shomron, Israel
A Second Chance for Ethiopian Jews

As young children, many of Nishmat's Ethiopian students walked across the Sudanese desert from one century to another, to be airlifted to Israel in Operation Solomon. Sadly, many of their early dreams have given way to the deprivations of poverty. Nishmat's Ma'ayan program combines Torah learning and a second chance at high school matriculation and a better future. For more information, click here.

[takebackourtemple]

Also, you can show up to a place and spend a few moments between you and G-d privately regardless of what the congregation is doing.   Just share inner thoughts and commit to doing something good or whatever.   And then leave.  Even if it's not the format of the "service."    What's the harm in that?

Sincere prayer doesn't have to be 4 hours long, that's for sure.

You can take a few minutes for prayer anywhere. Even in gullut. Some people who are at a high enough level can even bring holiness to an unholy place.

[Dr. Dan]

I'm sure many of you have noticed how some children rebel against their parents..or let alone a son with his parents.  I know some boys/men who feel they are "more a man" if they do everything opposite to what their parents say.  Except, most great parents have the best intentions and are 99% right about most things.  They will tell their child to do something that is good for him..because they know..they went through the same experience and lived longer. They do it because they love their child.  And this child thinks he's a man if he does the opposite...

In fact, however, he is more a man when he listens to them and takes their experience as council..A boy is man when he realizes where he came from and treats his parents with respect and honors them...

I liken this to those who rebel against Judaism and Torah.  In another sense, this person assumes deep inside he is more a man, an independent thinker, by simply not believe in the Torah or Gd.  I think this is how you feel deep inside..."I'm invincible, nothing will happen to me if I don't believe in Gd..and that the Torah is just a book."

Except, it's not about getting into heaven or getting rewards and ushering the moshiach over night. I beleive in all of that too, but I try to live Jewishly because I know it's good for me.  I think a lot of Jews forget that.

 The Torah is good for us.  Believing in Gd is good for us.  Going to shul, especially on Yom Kippur is good for us. Good for our health/our well being. Our mind. Our viewpoints of the world.  Rather just eating, breathing, drinking, and procreating...we are thinking and wondering and asking and answering. 

(And when we listen to music and you like the melody..or read poetry and it's beautiful and brings tears to your eyes...do you need proof of that emotion?  Love...do you need something to prove that?)

You might say, "What's the logic in not eating ham.  A lot of people eat ham and don't die from it."

I say, "Perhaps, but it's not just about that.  Perhaps, it's one of those things that set Jews apart from other nations by the what they eat and not just the identification of one calling himself a Jew."  (I don't know, I don't have the answer, but this can be one answer.)

We agree that Jews throughout current and past history have gone through tragedies.  We can agree they have gone through some great impossible victories...especially after tragedies.  We know about the passover story about Egypt, the 10 plagues, the 10 commandments, conquering Cannan, etc..  I'm sorry, but unlike other nations and religions we have an identity that sets us apart just because of these happenings of the Jewish people.  And it is passed down to our children and our community. Another day will pass in the future and whether we are loved or hated, people will see, "oh those Jews, they are something special.  There is a Gd, whether I want to believe in it or not..something is out there."

Again I will say, I hope that next year, you will go to a shul on Yom Kippur, self reflect, and become a better person.


Just as a disclaimer, I used to belong to the Conservative movement..Now I consider myself to be a non practicing Orthodox Jew...and traditional to a certain degree.  Simply, I believe that the Orthodox way is the way to go and that every Jew should strive at their own rate to be the best person and best Jew they can be throughout their life.

Good luck.

[Dr. Dan]

To masha

If you want to be a Torah scholar, go and learn.  And if you want to wear kippa and talit, go ahead.  As you learn from a proper authority, you will realize that you as a woman will not need to wear a kippa or talit..you wear one in your soul already...men are missing that part of them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, you can show up to a place and spend a few moments between you and G-d privately regardless of what the congregation is doing.   Just share inner thoughts and commit to doing something good or whatever.   And then leave.  Even if it's not the format of the "service."    What's the harm in that?

Sincere prayer doesn't have to be 4 hours long, that's for sure.

4 hours if you are lucky... Over Yom Kippur I must have logged about 11 hours of prayer...

Started at 9:30 on Monday morning finished by 3:30 (5 hours) then davened from 5:30 till about 8:30 (another 4 hours) for a total of 9 on Monday... I started Kol Nidre on Sunday night and the entire service was from 6:30 till about 8:30 (2 hours) and then we studied Torah till about 10 and got to sleep about 10:30...

This is the kind of davening which gets inspirational and perspirational...

Yeah I know, 4 hours was for only shacharit maybe (it might have been longer, I don't remember).   I was just saying though that it doesn't really have to be so long, and especially for a beginner, a sincere prayer is worth a million times more than sitting through an endless "service" bored and without seriously communicating with God.

[secularkahanist]

I question Pascal because his wager is  a faulty one. It works when there are but two equally reasonable choices. But if many thousands exist, his conclusion loses all merit.

But you're making it into a mathematical equation, which it really isn't.  It's philosophical.  It's not "proof" or some kind of empirical formula.  It's an idea.

for your claim of a group experience in terms of religious testimony may just as fairly be applied to Islam and Christianity.

How so?  They don't claim a national revelation experience.   Islam only claims that an angel appeared to Muhammad in a dream in a cave.   And christianity claims something about Jesus and maybe a disciple or I'm not sure what.  But not a group revelatory experience at a mountain.  Nor a group exodus from Egypt.

Given that in any such tradition practicing the others is essentially a sentence for hell (or gehenom as the case may be), none is a more compelling wager than Atheism.

I've read this argument from atheists before, but it reflects ignorance.  In all faiths, any other religion goes to hell?  Gee, that's not what Judaism believes.   I don't think that's what Islam believes either, although I could be wrong, but who cares.   Pascal was arguing from the point of view of christianity, true, but he was arguing for a belief in G-d.  Not any complex theological stance or particular faith.   It was about belief in G-d. 

Regardless of any of this, it's rather irrelevant to Judaism.   I don't think you "go to gehinnom" in Judaism if you are not convinced about the truth of G-d or Torah or have a sometimes wavering faith.   You are obligated to keep the mitzvot.   You can generally believe what you believe as long as you believe the reality that you're bound to keep mitzvot, and you keep them.   If you search and search and are tortured that you can't get yourself to really believe in x, y or z aspect about Judaism, or about G-d, that is not necessarily that you're going to gehinnom if it's an honest search.   There is punishment for doing evil, and for not doing mitzvot you miss out. 

As to your point about certainty and lack thereof, it is true not all things are equally suspect. For instance, it is far more likely that Obama was born outside of the US than it is you'll contract AIDS without being sexually active, a drug abuser, or receiving a blood transfusion, as the former is reasonably probable and the latter essentially impossible. But in the context of our discussion, I am equally skeptical of all religions because I see no evidence that indicates I should feel otherwise.

I wasn't talking about "evidence" per se, but more about the claims each of the religions make.   They are very different.   Do you acknowledge that?   Like I said, you can say you don't believe, but you can't equate their claims because that's dishonest.   Judaism is a national claim and the Torah serves as a testimony to the national experience.  I'm not saying that's bulletproof or because of that 'you're blind if you don't believe in what it says,' or all of that is literal etc, I'm saying that that is far more credible or believable than a theological dogma that someone claims was whispered into his ear one night while no one was looking, and therefore you must follow it.  Can you see the difference between those two things?

 he said it was, "because the world still makes it an advantage not to be one. Thus it becomes a matter of pride...." As long as their is anti-Semitism, which exists in great measure today, I will stand tall and defend my heritage.

That seems rather vindictive.

Yet sensible...   That is, until antisemitism ceases to exist, and then you could drop your "front."  In that hypothetical, your current position seems very not sensible.

Anti-Semitism is a constant, thus rendering your point irrelevant.

LOL, what makes it a constant?   There is nothing rational about such a claim.   The Talmud claims the principle Esav hates Yacov is a principle governing the universe and this underlies antisemitism and why it won't disappear.  But why would someone who doesn't believe in Torah or Judaism (or anything not empirical/pure-rational) make such a wild claim that antisemitism will never go away?  In a rational point of view, it could go away by next year if people change their minds about things and see the world differently.  Like that's never happened before in history?  Come on.   You are proving my point that your beliefs, however grounded in logic and math formulas you claim them to be, ultimately depend on dogmatic principles.   Maybe of your own creation, but dogmatic principles nonetheless.

As it applies to Pascal's wager, it may be phrased as philosophical statement, but math is a core consideration, for he is making a point reliant on odds. And it is a sound one where the fixed number of choices is two, one being a specific faith and the other Atheism. But that not being the case, it ceases to make sense.

In terms of religious testimony, the Christian tradition is all about Jesus revealing his divinity to a group of followers, with there being multiple, separately authored testaments about him that closely mirror each other. Islam, though based on testimony of Muhhamad, is reliant in its early days on others, chiefly Ali, claiming to having also personally experienced signs from the divine that Muhhamad was a prophet. So I am correct in my earlier assertion about group testimony.

My point about Hell was not specific to Judaism. Islam is rather clear that Jews are doomed to Hell. Most streams of traditional Christianity agree. And I'm sure many smaller religions do too. At the end of the day, a good many faiths are specific in condemning followers of rival faiths to hellfire. So what the means is practicing any faith that is the incorrect one, is likely to be worse.

I assume anti-semitism is a constant because history verifies as much. Moreover, as any number of things demonstrate, our world is full of idiots. And stupidity breeds anti-Semitism. So I need not believe in some religious explanation to expect it to continue.

[muman613]

sk,

You are obviously in denial and there is nothing to be said... You can live your life as you like... Just don't expect your religious Jewish bretheren to understand why you reject your creator.

I am a computer science major who returned to Jewish observance about seven years ago... I understand math and science and yet my belief in Hashem is stronger, because of this. I see Hashem in everything I do, and everywhere I go... You reject him.. And I don't understand this.. I pulled the wool over my eyes for over 20 years {from age 14-37} and even in my lowest of low points in life Hashem was with me. There is nothing you can say with your supposed logic which will shatter my absolute trust in Hashem. You just remind me how ignorant I was in my foolish youth...

[Cato]

Thoughtful and honest. I applaud your post.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As it applies to Pascal's wager, it may be phrased as philosophical statement, but math is a core consideration,

Really?  Did Pascal "show his work" ?  LOL.   What were his calculations exactly?

And it is a sound one where the fixed number of choices is two,

   For him it was two.  Belief in G-d vs. atheism/irreligiosity.   You are rewriting Pascal in order to "mathematically disprove him."  This is a silly exercise that atheists engage in in order to sell books about it (to the simplistic or otherwise) and then get religious people to question themselves (not necessarily bad things, but certainly a waste of our time here, and beneath the level of discussion we should be having). 

  one being a specific faith and the other Atheism. But that not being the case, it ceases to make sense.

   
Even if we assume Pascal is talking about a myriad amount of faith-choices (which he obviously wasn't), so why does it have to be specifically Pascal?   His philosophical point still stands.    And to Judaism, there does not have to be one "religion" in order to get into "heaven."    Non Jews can believe in many different things/ideas, and there is room for different types of religion.    There is less flexibility for Jews, but Jews do have to believe in G-d and follow G-d's precepts.    That really is 2 choices.   Either believe and do what He says, or not believe and don't do.    The "believing" is tied to keeping commandments.      (this aside from the fact that there are good things and good experiences about keeping the religion as Dr. Dan pointed out.  Of course that is true.   But we're talking bare necessities here).   The belief is necessary as a means to building a good relationship with G-d, and following the commandments of G-d which is supposed to produce positive effects in society.   Thus I conflate the two things, belief in G-d, with the more important keeping G-d's commandments for better life on earth.    Heaven is more of an after affect, but also is a factor.

In terms of religious testimony, the Christian tradition is all about Jesus revealing his divinity to a group of followers,

   

How does one reveal their divinity?   According to Jewish belief a man cannot be divine, by definition.  Even if said man DID perform miracles of some kind.     Now as to the miracles themselves (is this what you mean?  He did miracles?  And people witnessed it?), you are talking about a handful of people at most.   It's NOT the same thing as the Jewish national claim.    If 2 or 3 or 5 people wrote documents that became incorporated to the Christian bible, making various claims about a certain person, that is not the same thing as saying thousands of people stood on a mountain and received supernatural communication from G-d.   It may be a stronger claim than Islam, but it's still not the same claim as Judaism.

with there being multiple, separately authored testaments about him that closely mirror each other.

I have sent you a message about this.

Islam, though based on testimony of Muhhamad, is reliant in its early days on others, chiefly Ali, claiming to having also personally experienced signs from the divine that Muhhamad was a prophet.   

That is merely Ali making the same SINGULAR claim that Muhammad made.   Some spirit whispered in his ear, or he got a sign, or fell down in a cave and saw a vision, etc etc.  It's one person experiencing some thing (supposedly) and then coming back and reporting it.   That is NOT the same thing as the Jewish national claim.  I don't know how you can't see that.   We are talking about thousands of Jews all collectively experiencing something.    NOT one guy in a cave comes out hooting and hollering.   And then some other guy claims an angel came to him and told him the original guy was true.     In any case, the claim of the KORAN is not about Ali.   The claim of the Koran is focused on one individual who supposedly convened with the angel gabriel.  That individual is Muhammad.   It does not "corroborate itself" with Ali having a parallel encounter by himself, and even if it did, that would be laughable because it does not add to the claim.   

Ali said Muhammad was reliable, ok thousands of jewish people who Muhammad slaughtered for refusing his religion, they all said he was not reliable.   So did lots of pagans.   It's ridiculous to say it's a "group revelation" when it was one guy by himself in a cave.   Please deal with the facts, not just the wishful thinking and simplistic thinking of atheistic anti-religious tomes.

So I am correct in my earlier assertion about group testimony.

No, you are not.   You have not shown a group testimony for either religion, certainly not for Islam.   Please do not ignore the facts.   You cited one person.

My point about Hell was not specific to Judaism. Islam is rather clear that Jews are doomed to Hell.

  Really?  Cite a source.   Koran does not speak positively about Jews, but it also does not say all Jews and christians go to hell.    It is more about sincerity and good deeds vs bad deeds from what I understood.

  Most streams of traditional Christianity agree.

  So? 

And I'm sure many smaller religions do too.

  Really?  Name some.   

At the end of the day, a good many faiths are specific in condemning followers of rival faiths to hellfire. So what the means is practicing any faith that is the incorrect one, is likely to be worse.

 

I notice you like to speak in general terms but never get into specifics, why is that?   I find similar things in the "atheist literature."  It becomes very tiresome.

I assume anti-semitism is a constant because history verifies as much.

   Logical fallacy.   Was hunter-gathering lifestyle a constant because history verified that it existed since early humans lived?   Of course it was not a constant because human lifestyle at some point shifted.    Was slavery a constant because history verified it used to be ubiquitous in human society (at least starting at some point)?  No.   In many places it wiped away with the passage of time.   Something is only a "constant" until it changes.   The fact that something currently exists does not make it a constant, and there is no rational way to claim that it is destined to always exist as it does currently without some sort of dogmatic principle regarding it.       Added emphasis to show that you are making assumptions, and you readily admit that.

Moreover, as any number of things demonstrate, our world is full of idiots. And stupidity breeds anti-Semitism. So I need not believe in some religious explanation to expect it to continue.

   Really, so what happens when people get smarter?     People have come to live longer.   Scientific fact, life expectancy has risen.  People can also come to grow smarter over time.   Many scientists expect heads and brains to grow larger in the human race with time.    What if people change attitudes drastically in 100 years because of watershed events that take place?   Think about how different the world is in 2000 compared to 1900 and 1800?   Things never change?   You are not speaking rationally but dogmatically.   

[secularkahanist]

I understand how Pascal proposed it. But that does not mean his terms were sound. In every academic matter, revision is welcomed where necessary. And it is very much necessary when considering his wager, for he approached it by relying on an unprovable (that if there was a god, he must want people to practice Christianity) that simply does not withstand rational consideration. Why should I assume Judaism is theologically more valid than Christianity? I see no cause, which makes them equally likely. And if that is the case, then surely excluding one for the sake of upholding some antiquated wager is too arbitrary to be acceptable.

Your numbers claim fails because, even if the Jewish community discussed in the Bible outnumbers those who followed Jesus, we have no written account from them. We have one supposedly divine account given to one man on one mountain. Without having other supporting documents, you'd be hard pressed to claim it as being more believable.

Since you want Koran quotes about damnation of Jews, so be it:

Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof ? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do. (2:85)

And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do. (2:96)


Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place. (3:12)

And I can find many other citations if you'd like. The list is pretty long.

Your decision to write of the Christian view on this same topic is an issue. "So?" is fine as an answer to the faithful. But if we're talking about the general damnation risk, and you're advocating for Jewish religious practice, you'd do better to try and disprove my point.

Other examples of faiths that take that approach include Aum Shinrikyo and Zoroastrianism fit the bill, among others.

[muman613]

The Torah of Judaism was received by over 600,000 male adults... How could anyone believe a book which made such a claim. Our Torah asks us to teach this to our children. If it was made up then NOBODY WOULD EVER BELIEVE IT... Can you imagine coming to a group of people and making such a claim? If it didn't happen then it would have been rejected outright. The mass revelation of Sinai is unlike any other religion, before it and unlike any other religion which has been derived from it... Not Islam, and not Christianity... They have no mass revelation... And there is no way it would be accepted if it was not witnessed by the people of Israel...

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/proof-torah-true/

The beginnings of all ancient and modern religions have a common thread: one or two people have a revelation and persuade others to follow. Thus, for example, Buddhist writings tell us that Prince Siddhartha Gautama launched Buddhism after his solitary ascendance through the eight stages of Transic insight; Islamic texts tell us that Muhammad founded Islam following the first of many personal, prophetic experiences; Christian writings reveal that Paul first met Jesus, converted to Christianity, and spread the faith more than three decades after Jesus’ death; Joseph Smith, Jr., and his partner, Oliver Cowdery, launched the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints (the Mormon church) after the two men were visited by angels and long-dead disciples of Jesus; and Sun Myung Moon launched the Unification Church after privately receiving direct orders to do so from Jesus himself. The beginnings of Children of G-d, Christian Science, Eckankar, Elan Vital, I AM, and Theosophy — in fact, the beginnings of all world religions — are equally unverifiable. Never does a large, clearly identifiable group of people experience prophecy and live to tell others about it. Moreover, in a handful of cases wherein large groups of people supposedly witnessed miracles, rarely are these witnesses named or identified in any way that would allow for verification; and in the very exceptional cases involving clearly identified groups of witnesses, never more than one or two of the religion’s current adherents claim to have met or descended directly from the named witnesses. In all these cases, the religion’s credibility rests on the credibility of its one or two founders. While it is certainly possible that the beginnings claimed by any of the thousands of sects and cults included in the world’s more than three hundred major religious traditions could be true, it is easy to imagine how charismatic charlatans could have launched any of these movements.

The one known exception to this rule is Judaism. The Torah claims that every Jewish man, woman, and child alive in 1312 B.C.E. — about three million people, according to the Torah — heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai and survived to teach their descendants about the event. Here we have an easily identifiable group — all of Jewry — who could have verified or denied the story any time during the first two or three generations after the alleged mass prophecy transpired. While it is easy to imagine how most religious mythologies could have been fabricated and spread, understanding how Judaism could be a lie requires more extensive analysis.