People Kept Kosher Even Before The Torah Was Given!!!

[Sefardic Panther]

These earlier Toranic references are evidence that the difference between Kosher animals and treif animals is a scientific reality it is not simply because G-d said so in Wayiqra ch.11.

In Bereishith ch.7 Hashem commanded Noah to bring 7 (not 2) of every Kosher animal on the tevat (ark). Noah and his family were not even Jewish so this implys that Gentiles should keep Kosher.

The Midrash on Bereishith 43:16 says Yosef ordered a Kosher animal to be slaughtered when his 11 brothers visited him in egypt.

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher. Remember that Hashem controls everything that happens in the world. So whenever we suffer it is a punishment from Hashem. That is exactly why the Egyptians originally welcomed Yosef’s family but then as Tehillim 105:25 says Hashem turned their heart to hate them.

[muman613]

This is well known from the story of Noah. The commentary clearly explains this.

I don't know if there is any implication that non-Jews should keep kosher. Remember that before Noah mankind was only allowed to eat vegetation and not eat meat. So I don't think it can be argued that there was any requirement for mankind to keep kosher. The laws of Kashrut are meant to make the Jewish nation separate {one of many explanations}.

The definition of Kosher is defined clearly in Torah but before it was given there was no command. You do know the Talmud which says one who does something which they are not commanded is not as great as one who does something when they are commanded.

http://www.vbm-torah.org/shavuot/shav63-ek.htm

OBLIGATION AND INITIATIVE

"Greater is one who is commanded [to perform a mitzva] and fulfills, than one who is not commanded but fulfills." (Bava Kama 87a and elsewhere)

Several reasons have been proposed for the above principle. Some say that a person who is actually commanded to fulfill the mitzva is burdened with responsibility and takes greater care to fulfill it properly. Others claim that the evil inclination attacks one with greater force if he is commanded, and one who is commanded must consequently exert greater effort to resist his inner rebellious urgings.

Despite the logic of these explanations, the statement itself still sounds problematic. The great figures of our history, who paved new paths in divine service, exercised personal initiative, and fall into the category of those who were "not commanded." Our obligations are listed in the Shulchan Arukh, and they are uniform and common to all of Israel. But what obligation did R. Chaim of Volozhin fulfill when he established his yeshiva, or the Ba'al Shem Tov when he founded Chassidism? Was it not the spirit of volunteerism that inspired them to perform their great deeds? Are we really meant to evaluate such a person's life's mission - bearing the stamp of originality and private initiative - as being worth less than his recitation of "birkat ha-mazon" or the fact that he donned tefillin?

..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.

Because they didn't keep kosher?   Please cite the midrash.

[muman613]

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.

Because they didn't keep kosher?   Please cite the midrash.

I am not sure what he is referring to here. We do know that Hashem told Abraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land.

http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/kiteitzei/008.htm

Although the Children of Israel may not have been considered a nation until we received the Torah at Mt. Sinai, the events that led up to that point were integral in our spiritual growth and sensitivity towards others. Hashem wants us to remember our experience in Egypt, so that we can internalize the beauty of the Torah. Hashem told Abraham right from the start that we would be slaves in a foreign land (Genesis 15:13). The reason for slavery was not a punishment; it was actually a blessing. It gave us the opportunity to grow both physically and spiritually. We acquired an awareness for people who are in the most desperate of situations. At the time of our bondage it surely did not feel like a blessing, but in hindsight we can see how we have benefited from that predicament. Hashem has done a kindness to us by teaching our nation sensitivity, and thereby making it easier to fulfill these types of mitzvot.

[Sefardic Panther]

Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.

Because they didn't keep kosher?   Please cite the midrash.

The Midrash is the Zohar. I know you don’t accept the Zohar or maybe you have since changed your mind about it. But this is certainly a consistent explanation. Why were the Jews so extremely persecuted in egypt? Hashem would never send such a severe punishment on the entire Jewish people for nothing.

[muman613]

Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.

Because they didn't keep kosher?   Please cite the midrash.

The Midrash is the Zohar. I know you don’t accept the Zohar or maybe you have since changed your mind about it. But this is certainly a consistent explanation. Why were the Jews so extremely persecuted in egypt? Hashem would never send such a severe punishment on the entire Jewish people for nothing.

Do you have a reference to the Zohar which discusses this? I would be interested in reading it...

Regarding why Hashem created the gentile nations? I have heard many explanations... In the end of days there will be gentiles who are righteous and will see the messianic era {according to Rabbi Tovia Singers explanation at A7 on several programs}... And there are Jews who will not support Israel and the mission of the jewish people, and they will be destroyed with the rest of the evil in the world...

Some gentiles are put here to test Jews... This is one reason why Pharoah was allowed to subjugate the Jewish people. Pharoah went a bit too far once he started to massacre the Jewish people by throwing the babies into the river. It is one reason the Egyptian slavery was only 200 some years instead of the decreed 400 years...

http://www.aish.com/print/?contentID=48949406&section=/h/pes/t/si

Question: The Jews were only in Egypt for 210 years, yet the verse claims 400.

Answer 1: Since Pharaoh caused them unbearable torture, 210 years of brutal torture was equivalent to a full 400 years of humane subjugation. This is why we eat matzah with marror, and say that the reason we left Egypt in a hurry (symbolized by the matzah) was due to the marror (the bitterness).

Answer 2: Since the verse doesn't specify Egypt, it seems that God's promise could be referring to an earlier period when Abraham was in the "Promised Land" but had to pay a stiff price for his wife's grave. He remained a stranger in the land. The Exodus was exactly 400 years from the birth of Abraham's son Isaac.

We thank God for keeping His promise in a special way: He "calculated the end," subtracting the "Kaitz" (numerical value 190) from 400, leaving exactly 210 years.

The kabbalists say the Jews had reached the 49th level of impurity, and had they remained in Egypt for a moment longer they would have reached the 50th rung and never gone out. That's why it was necessary to "calculate the end."

"That promise"

God's promise -- that He will bring the Jews' adversaries to judgment and even out the score -- has kept us going. In every generation they come to destroy the Jewish people. (Our enemies have a true appreciation of the Jew's mission, sometimes even more than we do!) Yet the Almighty saves us from their hands, time and again.

Others explain the protection to refer to the Torah itself.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. 

   
But you just made that up.   I see no indication anywhere that that is the implication of the Noah story or that that is what Chazal had in mind for what God intended.   Can you point to some (Jewish) source to back this wild speculation?

Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.

So that they could be good Gentiles.

The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.

Because they didn't keep kosher?   Please cite the midrash.

The Midrash is the Zohar.
[/quote]

Like I said, cite your source.   Just saying "zohar" is not sufficient.  Where is it, and what is the quote?  Put it in here.   And just so you know, there is a difference between 'Zohar' and 'midrash.'    Midrash is an earlier source from tannaic and amoraic era, such as Midrash rabba, midrash tanchuma, sifre, etc...    Zohar is a category of its own.   

But it is notable that if you are citing something that really does exist in zohar, not one Jewish source said such a thing about the slavery in Egypt, from the year the exodus took place, until the 1200's CE in Spain when the Zohar came out.   Thus, that is NOT what the gemara says about the persecution in egypt, not what Chazal said, not what Torah said.     The Torah says explicitly, as Muman already cited, that Hashem promised to Avraham we would be enslaved.    And the Egyptians were NOT supposed to overly persecute us.   That is why they were punished.    If we deserved some kind of persecution because we "didn't keep kosher," then God was not justified (chas veshalom) to punish the Egyptians since they just gave us our just punishment.    Chazal do not say this.   The sources speak of Egypt's transgression against God's will in overly persecuting us, rather than just having us as slaves, as was the design.    So I'm surprised the zohar would say this.   Let's see you bring the source.

[Sefardic Panther]

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. 

   
But you just made that up.   I see no indication anywhere that that is the implication of the Noah story or that that is what Chazal had in mind for what G-d intended.   Can you point to some (Jewish) source to back this wild speculation?

Well why else did Noah keep Kosher and offer sacrifices on the site of the Beith HaMiqdash?

It is obvious that the Noahide laws were intended as a temporary stepping stone to full conversion to Judaism. Who can be happy to be a Noahide? Where do Noahides worship? What type of school do they send their children to? What type of cemetery do they bury their dead in? Why is there no history of Noahide communities existing parallel to Jewish communities? Noahides are our dhimmis. They cannot pray with Jews or marry Jews and if they live in Erets Yisrael (that is a Toranic Israel not the joke that exists today) they must pay a higher tax and they are liable to a death penalty if they brake any one of the Noahide laws.

I say this with all due respect to any Noahides reading this. I think it is extremely admirable that you people have abandoned your idolatrous upringing and now worship the one and only G-d. But if you are serious about worshipping Hashem you should consider a full conversion to Judaism. Then and only then can you be counted as one of His people.

Like I said, cite your source.   Just saying "zohar" is not sufficient.  Where is it, and what is the quote?  Put it in here.   And just so you know, there is a difference between 'Zohar' and 'midrash.'    Midrash is an earlier source from tannaic and amoraic era, such as Midrash rabba, midrash tanchuma, sifre, etc

Rabbis who know that the Zohar was written by the great Tanna Rashbi calls it a Midrash.

In Zohar Parashat Shemoth Rabbi Hiya said if the Ivrim did not eat the food of the egyptians they would not have been forsaken in egypt and the egyptians would not have been able to harm them. Rabbi Yitshaq then argues that it was decreed that the Ivrim should be in exile. Rabbi Hiya says but it was not decreed that the exile be in egypt since Bereishith 15:13 only says they would be strangers in a strange land. Egypt was not specified.

[muman613]

Shalom SP,

I will be studying some of the Zohar Shemot today... I have found a few very good sites with audio lectures on this portion...

So far I found the following:

http://www.ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=z1364

A Golden Opportunity
Zohar, Shemot, p. 7b; translation and commentary by Simcha Treister

(From our sister-site, Kabbala Online)

 

Parashat Shemot talks of the exile and redemption of the Jewish people from their first exile in Egypt. In this section of the Zohar, Rebbe Shimon compares the Egyptian exile, where the Jews were given houses and food but were enslaved nonetheless, with the later exiles and the ultimate redemption through the leadership of the Mashiach.

Come and see. It is written: For thus says the Lord G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to live there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. (Isaiah 52:4)

The Assyrians dispersed the exiled tribes to the furthermost corners of their empire and took from them and deprived them of their own country. Egypt provided the Jews with all of those good things [the land of Goshen and houses and food] and was nonetheless punished with all those punishments [the plagues and military destruction].

How much more will be the punishment of Syria and Edom [Europe] and those other peoples who anguish them and kill them and take their wealth. [This punishment will be] at the time when the Holy One Blessed be He decides to reveal the glory of His name on them. So it is written [about the war of Gog and Magog]: "Thus will I magnify Myself and sanctify Myself; and I will make Myself known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am G-d." (Ezek. 38:23). There in Egypt [when G-d manifested His glory] there was one king [Pharaoh]. In the future [redemption His glory will be manifested] to all the rulers of the world.

Rebbe Shimon lifted up his hands and cried.

The raising of the hands, which are each comprised of 10 fingers representing the 10 sefirot, is the physical manifestation of connecting to the higher sefirot, which are the containers of the manifestation of the Divine. The tears shed by Rebbe Shimon were a heartfelt attempt to sweeten the harsh judgment he foresaw.

He said: Woe to he who is present at that time [of the coming of the Mashiach] and happy is the portion of one who is present and found at that time.

Woe to he who is present at that time because at the time when the Holy One Blessed be He comes to redeem the deer [the Shechina from exile] He will look at all those who stand with her and at all those who are found with her. He will look at the actions of each and every one of them, and He will not find one who is worthy and righteous, as is written: "And I looked, and there was none to help" (Isaiah 63:5). Then how many troubles will come upon troubles for Israel. Happy is he who is ready at that time, because he who lives in faith at that time will be worthy to receive the light of the joy of the King [because then G-d will rejoice in His works]. It is of that time that the verse refers to; "I will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested". (Zechariah 13:9)

Silver is refined through heat. The impurities are burnt out. So will it be at the time of the revelation of the Mashiach.

The troubles will be like fire to purify the rebellious and the wicked. The remainder will be tested as to their faith as gold is tested in the goldsmith's forge to test if it is free of impurities. Happy are they who will have the faith enabling them to endure these times because they will see the direction of the seemingly chaotic events. Those who have no faith will be subject to terror and fear which will give them the chance to rise to the challenge - or fail the test.

Chabad has some good Zohar lessons online @ http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/576463/jewish/Book-of-Shemot-Exodus.htm

I would be interested in a more specific reference to the page and line # of this particular discussion...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sefardic panther:  I note that nowhere have you cited anything that suggests non-Jews are supposed to convert to Judaism.    There is no indication from what you wrote from zohar (or anywhere else), that Noahides were made to be anything other than good Noahides.   That is your own conclusion that you made, and you called it zohar!    By saying these things, you are contravening Chazal, all modern (modern as in, post-Talmud) Judaism, and not to mention, basic Kahanist thought.   I suggest you rethink your strange conclusions.

As to the kashrut issue, that is clearly not the pshat in the verses, but interesting.   That being said, it does not seem to mean "Kashrut" in the sense of today's post-Matan Torah standards of kashrut, but rather, "Egyptian food" as in, things that sons of Yaakov at that time just did not customarily eat... say pig for example.   (I don't know if egyptians ate it, but it might mean that, not necessarily other things there were also given at Sinai that may not have had a precedent in Jewish society).    You again made a conclusion by saying "we didn't keep kashrut" but this is not about laws of kashrut or slaughter, you quote Rabbi Hiya as saying "food of the Egyptians."  That's a general term because if he was keeping it somewhat realistic to draw this analogy.   

So the whole purpose of the midrash is, not that this actually is what happened, but that there is a lesson to be drawn that today Jews need to keep kashrut (the standard that we have today), and not eat the food of other nations in galut.   I think that is rather clear, that is the message zohar was giving over, and can't really see concluding that he meant it really happened that way.  Which you seem to do.

[muman613]

The parallel I think which can be drawn is from our Purim story...

We all know that the Jewish people were invited to Achashveros party... The party was catered with Kosher food but they ate and drank from the holy vessels of the Temple which the king had plundered.... The Jewish people were judged harshly, with the evil decree, because they attended the party... They ate the food of the king...

http://www.kby.org/torah/article.cfm?articleid=1326

This explains the ambiguity of the first Gemara. The Jews didn't violate any commandment by attending the party. All the food was kosher and served by Jewish attendants. The problem was that they received benefit from a rasha. They should have hated the wicked Achashverosh and despised being forced to eat his food. The foreign cuisine should have tasted like cardboard, because it originated from an evil person. If they had gone only with the intention of not upsetting Achashverosh, this would have been so. But, the Gemara testifies, their intentions were less that altruistic; they ate, drank and were merry.

[Sefardic Panther]

Kahane-Was-Right BT where did I say that the Zohar says Gentiles should convert to Judaism? I never said the Zohar says that. I only referenced the Zohar in explaining why the Jews were enslaved in egypt. In present times no sane individual could realistically expect all Gentiles to convert to Judaism given that most Gentiles hate the Jews and don’t even think we are human.

I would be interested in a more specific reference to the page and line # of this particular discussion...

Unfortunately I don’t own a full set of the Zohar books so I cannot look up the exact page and line of that discussion. But I know it is definitely near the start of Parashat Shemoth.

[Sefardic Panther]

Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.

I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.

I have realized I was not entirely correct about that. The implication is that Hashem ORIGINALLY WANTED all humanity to be Jewish. As Talmud Bavli Avodah Zarah 2b says Hashem offered the Torah to every nation but only the Jews accepted it.

If Noahides have their own countries then they could be prosperous. But I think some of the laws of Kashruth are binding on Noahides. For instance because of the law against cruelty to animals they should perform Kosher slaughter since it is the only humane way to kill an animal. They are also forbidden to eat shellfish since they have to be cooked alive. Shellfish should not be removed from the ocean because they are a vital part of the eco system. They clean up all the dead fish and toxic waste. Likewise pigs should not be farmed, they should be let loose to clean up excrement and dead animals.

[Raulmarrio2000]

According to one summary of midrashim I read while aming to convert, Hashem would have given the Torah to Adam and Havah if they hadn't sinned. In that case all Humanity would have been Jewish.
When Torah was given at Mt Sinai, all nations were asked if they wanted it, but as far as I know, it was a free choice.
The distiction between kosher and impure animals is mentioned regarding Noah, from the context we may think that it was already known before Noah, since Torah says Hashem ordered him to take seven couples of clean (kosher) animals, but He does not explain Noah which animal was clean. So we may think that the distinction was widely known at that time. That distiction was necessary to offer sacrifices, and perhaps many people also avoided eating unclean animals, as many peolpes still do today, but there is no commandment to keep kosher. People naturally avoids taht which is dirty, but it doen't mean it is forbidden to them.
I haven't read that midrash saying that Israelites were punished for not keeping kosher. Now, we know that pre-Torah Israelites voluntarily kept the mitzvot by inspiration before they were revealed, so it is quite possible that they used to keep kosher. Being that the case, if that midarsh is to be taken literarily and Israelites were punished for neglecting kosher, it may still mean that they had neglected a good practise they had taken upon themselves to honour Hashem. Being that they knew by prophesy taht they would be the Chosen People, neglecting a mitzva, even if still not commanded, could perhaps be considered wrong.
But all mitzvot of the Torah not included in the Noahide Laws or their derivation are not binding of plain Gentiles. If everyone were Jewish, then Israel would not be a nation.

[Sveta]

Shalom,
Did people keep kosher before the Torah was given? Wether or not people did...perhaps things like this might have something to do with the fact that seven items were created before the world was.
The Torah, Tshuva, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of Moshiach.
Before the world was created, before Noah before Moshe before the Torah was given.... It was already created, along within it the laws of kashrut.

[muman613]

Shalom,
Did people keep kosher before the Torah was given? Wether or not people did...perhaps things like this might have something to do with the fact that seven items were created before the world was.
The Torah, Tshuva, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of Moshiach.
Before the world was created, before Noah before Moshe before the Torah was given.... It was already created, along within it the laws of kashrut.

That is very interesting...

And it reminds me of the ten things which were created before the eve of Shabbat.

Pirkie Avot / Ethics of the Fathers Chapter 5

6. Ten things were created at twilight of Shabbat eve. These are: the mouth of the earth [that swallowed Korach]; the mouth of [Miriam's] well; the mouth of [Balaam's] donkey; the rainbow; the manna; [Moses'] staff; the shamir; the writing, the inscription and the tablets [of the Ten Commandments]. Some say also the burial place of Moses and the ram of our father Abraham. And some say also the spirits of destruction as well as the original tongs, for tongs are made with tongs.

Also there is the belief that Torah is the blueprint of creation... As a result some of the proto-Jews, including Noach and Abraham, and the other patriarchs kept Torah even though it had not been given yet.

[freedomannie]

Wow this whole subject and all your comments have been so informative! Thanks so much!