Nothing like a good Jewish cheeseburger!

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Kosher beef, this fake cheese stuff pic'd above, onions, tomatoes, lettuce, soy mayo and mustard...  L'chaim!

[muman613]

I think I have had some of that stuff on some Kosher Tacos I ate at my Rabbis house a couple years ago...

[Debbie Shafer]

Definitely healthier, but what about Taste?

[Lisa]

Some soy cheeses taste good cold.  I don't know about when they're melted. 

On the other hand, doesn't Judaism prohibit doing something that gives the appearance of impropriety, or of breaking the dietary laws? 

[Dr. Dan]

Lisa, I agree...if the Rabbis stated that poultry is actually meat because it has a similar texture and even taste to meat that can confuse some people, what about soy cheeses and soy meats?

[Chai]

No more Sanhedrin therefore no organization  can  impose a rule  on all of klal Israel

Today its what your rabbi tells you , unless you know how to learn ..that is till Moshaiach comes.

As a result, today we do as we see fit, as long as its in the framework of torah Judaism  such as how to tie tzizit, techeilet  etc.

[muman613]

Some soy cheeses taste good cold.  I don't know about when they're melted. 

On the other hand, doesn't Judaism prohibit doing something that gives the appearance of impropriety, or of breaking the dietary laws? 

Yes, we are not supposed to do something if it can be perceived to be a violation. I was told that when eating this kind of product that we should put it on the table so all can see that it is not a violation of milk and meat.

I cannot find any reference to this but I will ask my Rabbi next week...

[Chai]

"I cannot find any reference to this but I will ask my Rabbi next week"

This is what I mean.. my Orthodox rabbi says one thing yours another, and it can possibly case a rift


People like Muman want to serve G-d and yet  we have no unified leader . Its a shame
I really really do hope Moshiach comes so we can all be one and eat at each other table like on passover without reservations.

Everything is set the temple vessels, Israel ... Im not sure what G-d is waiting for .. we aren't gonna change this is how we are going to be.

For the sake of people like Kahane and Chaim I wish G-d would help us instead of allowing leader like Kahane to be killed by the enemy . that was not the Jews fault an Arab killed him.

[Dr. Dan]

Thanks Muman and 18chai.

I see your point, 18chai, that since there is no Sanhedrin, it really depends on what one's Orthodox Rabbi will say. Otherwise, if a Jew wants to do something correctly, he/she has to stick with in what Torah Judaism has already ruled on the matter.

But it would make for an interesting discussion.  If one has knowledge of what he is eating is not in violation of the Torah, that's fine and dandy.  However, if perception from another Jew will cause him to think the other is sinning, then the eater has to be cautious.

The same goes for those who wish to have wider "fences".  If it tempts a Jew to want to eat an actual cheeseburger, for example, then its permitted for him/her to not eat soy whatever.

[muman613]

Thanks Muman and 18chai.

I see your point, 18chai, that since there is no Sanhedrin, it really depends on what one's Orthodox Rabbi will say. Otherwise, if a Jew wants to do something correctly, he/she has to stick with in what Torah Judaism has already ruled on the matter.

But it would make for an interesting discussion.  If one has knowledge of what he is eating is not in violation of the Torah, that's fine and dandy.  However, if perception from another Jew will cause him to think the other is sinning, then the eater has to be cautious.

The same goes for those who wish to have wider "fences".  If it tempts a Jew to want to eat an actual cheeseburger, for example, then its permitted for him/her to not eat soy whatever.

Yes the question is will doing so 'place a stumbling block before the blind'...

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/placingstumbling.html

The principle of lifnei iver prohibits one from giving bad advice to another person. Thus, one should not advise another party that it is in his interest to sell his field in order to buy a donkey, when his true intention is to buy the field for himself. By concealing the ulterior motive of his advice, he has violated the principle of lifnei iver (Midrash Sifra, Leviticus 19:14). In fact, the Midrash explains the reason the verse ends with the warning about fearing God: Human beings do not know whether advice proffered to them by friends is good or bad. Often, advice is given with an ulterior motive. Only God knows the true motive of the advice giver.

In addition, the above verse is considered to be a prohibition against helping or causing another to sin. Thus, placing any kind of prohibited temptation in front of someone would not be allowed. For example, providing an individual with a prohibited food, e.g., wine to a Nazirite (who takes a vow which prohibits him from drinking wine, cutting hair, or ritually contaminating himself by coming into contact with the dead), would be a violation of this commandment (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 22b). Rabbi Ashi, who owned forests, was permitted to sell wood to heathens who were fire-worshippers only because the majority of purchased wood is used for kindling, not for idolatry (Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 62b). However, to sell the wood directly for the purpose of allowing pagans to practice their idolatrous practices would be prohibited. Lending someone money without having any witnesses present is also a violation of lifnei iver since it might ultimately tempt the debtor to deny that he or she borrowed any money (Babylonian Talmud, Baba Metzia 75b). If one person lends another money with interest, the borrower and the lender have also violated lifnei iver since each one enables the other to commit the sin of usury (Babylonian Talmud, Bava Metzia 75b). The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Moed Katan 17a) also prohibits one from hitting an older son because of lifnei iver. An older son might angrily retaliate and strike his father, which is a very serious sin.

[Lisa]

Lisa, I agree...if the Rabbis stated that poultry is actually meat because it has a similar texture and even taste to meat that can confuse some people, what about soy cheeses and soy meats?

Dr. Dan, not all soy cheeses are parve.  Some of them contain the ingredient casein (sp?) which is some kind of dairy enzyme I think.  So check the labels. 

[Dr. Dan]

Lisa, I agree...if the Rabbis stated that poultry is actually meat because it has a similar texture and even taste to meat that can confuse some people, what about soy cheeses and soy meats?

Dr. Dan, not all soy cheeses are parve.  Some of them contain the ingredient casein (sp?) which is some kind of dairy enzyme I think.  So check the labels. 

I check all my labels

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Lisa, I agree...if the Rabbis stated that poultry is actually meat because it has a similar texture and even taste to meat that can confuse some people, what about soy cheeses and soy meats?

Dr. Dan, not all soy cheeses are parve.  Some of them contain the ingredient casein (sp?) which is some kind of dairy enzyme I think.  So check the labels. 

I check all my labels

This soy cheese is definitely parve.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

The Kosher restaurants I go to always serve margarine which has the appearance of butter, and my favorite of these restaurants has a non-dairy gelato which I swear tastes better than any dairy gelato I have had, and it looks just like it.  I go to a Kosher sushi place as well, and they have fake fake crab there [there is no crab juice in this fake crab unlike other fake crab meats].  But I would feel in error if I were to take one of my soycheeseburgers out in public where it would not be understood that I was in a Kosher environment [a reason I posted the picture of Tofutti 1st thing in this thread, its parve and under rabbinical inspection].  I think I would also avoid bringing my non-gelatin jello deserts out of my home, or out of a Kosher restaurant into public [real jello is made out of the feet of a horse].

[Rubystars]

I thought Jello was made out of cattle gelatin.

edit: Ok I was slightly wrong, it's made from cattle and pigs:

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/jello.asp

[muman613]

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/127/Q1/

Dear Rabbi,

Wait a minute. Did you say [Ask the Rabbi Issue #123] "About oinkers, the Torah prohibits eating the flesh only. The hoofs, hair and bones (excluding the marrow), are permitted?????" Hummmh. Isn't unkosher gelatin made from pigs' hooves? Then why is it unkosher if it's kosher? I always thought nothing edible about the pig was kosher. Please expand on this question.

Dear [email protected],

Gelatin is made from collagen, an animal protein. Collagen is extracted from the skin/bones of cows or pigs. It's soaked and cooked, then filtered, refined and evaporated. The finished product is gelatin.

The Torah prohibits only the meat of unkosher animals, but not the bones, horns or hoofs.

The Sages, however, forbade any bones, horns or hoofs which contain moisture. According to this, food made from unkosher bones is forbidden, unless the bones were completely dry.

But during the manufacturing of gelatin, the animal extract becomes totally inedible, such that even a dog will no longer eat it. Now, food which even a dog won't eat loses its status as food. Halachically, it's no different than stones or dirt which are you allowed to eat!

Based on this, some authorities permit gelatin from unkosher animals, since during the process the animal extract becomes unfit for even a dog. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, zatzal, rules otherwise. He writes that although the animal parts are inedible in the middle of the process, this inedible state is only temporary. Since at the end of the process the unkosher bones are 'resurrected' into an edible product, the original prohibition remains.

In the United States, almost all kashrut organizations accept the stricter opinion and do not endorse gelatin made from unkosher derivatives.

    Speaking of animal skins:
    Little girl: Daddy, what is leather made of?
    Daddy: Hide.
    Little girl: What did you say?
    Daddy: Hide, hide! The cow's outside.
    Little girl: But, Daddy, I'm not afraid of the cow!

Sources:

    * Leviticus 11:9
    * Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Prohibited Food 4:21
    * Tractate Temura 31
    * Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, Responsa Achiezer vol. 3, 3:5
    * Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Responsa Iggrot Moshe Yoreh De'ah 2:23

Olorin wrote:

What about the skin, can we eat the pig skin?

Dear Olorin:

Pig's skin which is dry and hard is permitted to be eaten. Therefore if you check your pig-skin wallet and find no cash for food ... you can eat the wallet!

Bob wrote:

Is gelatin from a kosher animal pareve?

Dear Bob,

During the process of making, the animal parts become inedible and lose their status as meat. Also, they lose any taste of meat. In theory, such gelatin would be pareve - meaning you can eat it with milk. In practice, kosher gelatin is usually made of agar-agar - a plant (seaweed) derivative.

[Rubystars]

Does this mean Jews can eat pork rinds, since they're made of the skin?

[muman613]

Does this mean Jews can eat pork rinds, since they're made of the skin?

According to this last Ask the Rabbi... But there is the issue of whether it retains moisture:

The Sages, however, forbade any bones, horns or hoofs which contain moisture. According to this, food made from unkosher bones is forbidden, unless the bones were completely dry.

Here is some more information from :

http://www.kashrut.com/articles/DryBones/
[It is beyond the scope of this article to delve into the details of the gelatin controversy, but a brief synopsis should help the reader understand the basic issues involved. Rav Chaim Ozer zt"l wrote a famous Teshuva, in which he permits gelatin based upon three considerations: (a) The hard bones from which the gelatin is produced are not considered meat, (b) because gelatin is considered a new product totally dissimilar from the original starting material (Ponim Chadashos), and (c) because gelatin is rendered inedible for a period of time during its processing (Nifsal M'Achila). The three authorities mentioned above, however, reviewed the matter and rejected this opinion for the following reasons: First, Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aharon Kotler both held that bones from non-Kosher animals are not Kosher. Further, the argument is essentially academic since, even according to this approach, the bones would have to be completely clean, dry, and without marrow. Bones generally used for gelatin manufacture may have meat and marrow on them. In addition, most gelatins made today are produced from skins, which are not subject to this consideration. (Indeed, the Talmud (Chullin 122a) considers pigskins to be edible meat, and one need look no further than the snack section in the supermarket to note "Fried Pork Rinds" as proof!) As to the second consideration, the basis for the concept of Ponim Chadashos is a Rabbeinu Yonah, an opinion questioned by many authorities. Rav Moshe Feinstein further holds that Ponim Chadashos only applies to an Issur Yotzeh (an excretion from a forbidden animal) and not to parts of the animal itself. In addition, Rav Yechezkel Abramsky zt"l argues that gelatin is not even a "new creation", but merely an edible extract that had always been present. As such, the concept of Ponim Chadashos does not apply according to these Poskim. As to the third consideration, the status of non-Kosher food that is Nifsal and then returned to an edible state is a longstanding question amongst the Poskim. Both Rav Feinstein and Rav Henkin rule that the matter remains a Safek (an unresolved Halachik issue), and one must therefore be strict in its regard. Rav Aharon Kotler argues forcefully that such material remains prohibited, and cites several additional reasons to prohibit gelatin. One is that since the processing of the gelatin was done with the intention of creating an edible product, the rule of inedible foods does not apply at all. Another is that even if the material would still be considered inedible, eating it intentionally would still be prohibited (Achshivay). He further argues that since gelatin is used to improve the food into which it is mixed, the fact that it itself may be inedible is of no consequence. It should be noted, however, that other authorities, notably Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank zt"l, and yb"l Rav Ovadia Yosef and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg shlit"a permit the use of regular gelatin based upon one or more of the above arguments. On the basis of these opinions, the Rabbanut in Israel does allow the use of certain types of gelatin produced from non-Kosher sources (primarily from dried bones). However, none of the Mehadrin Kosher certifications in Israel allow the use of this product, and the Rabbanut itself requires that products containing such questionable gelatin be clearly labeled as "permitted only for those who allow the use of gelatin".]

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Wow!

I don't think I will be eating regular jello or pork skins any time in the future, but that is a funny debate to listen in on.

[Rubystars]

That's really interesting. I've never, ever heard of anything like that before.

[muman613]

That's really interesting. I've never, ever heard of anything like that before.

Yes it is news to me too... I am looking more into it... Of course every Jew must consult with his/her Rabbi for the proper Halacha... But it seems there is a machlokes on this issue {between some prominent Poskim}.

http://www.kashrut.com/articles/gelatin_revisited/

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Keeping Kashrut must be really tough for a Jew in the American Exile.

[muman613]

Keeping Kashrut must be really thought for a Jew in the American Exile.

it is very very hard for me... Here in the midbar of California there are only 2 sources for Kosher food 'nearby'... I must drive 30 minutes to go to the Kosher store... Of course most of the prepared foods already have OU or circle-K Heksher...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Keeping Kashrut must be really thought for a Jew in the American Exile.

it is very very hard for me... Here in the midbar of California there are only 2 sources for Kosher food 'nearby'... I must drive 30 minutes to go to the Kosher store... Of course most of the prepared foods already have OU or circle-K Heksher...

Another reason to go home 

[Rubystars]

Keeping Kashrut must be really tough for a Jew in the American Exile.

There's a U symbol on a whole lot of different foods. I laugh when neo-nazis say kosher food is disgusting because probably a quarter of their own groceries are probably kosher when they're not eating [censored].