Author Topic: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...  (Read 1067 times)

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Offline Chai

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His views were very much in league with league with an anti zionist website/


The Torah teaches us not to resist the nations even when they fight against us. We must follow in the footsteps of Yaakov Avinu in his encounter with his brother Esav. As the Ramban writes in Vayishlach, all that happened between Yaakov and Esav happens to us constantly with Esav's children. We must adopt the methods of that tzaddik, to make the three preparations that he made: prayer, a gift, and escape through war, that is, to flee to safety. As long as we walked on that well- tread path, G-d saved us from their hands. But since we have strayed from the path and new leaders have arisen who chose new methods, leaving behind our ancestors' weapons and adopting the methods of our enemies, we have fared worse and worse, and great travails have befallen us.

(Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Devarim)

my Rebuttal?

In  Rav Kahanes Or haorayon  (the Jewish Idea) he states on  page 100 that even the teachings of the  greatest Jewish  sages are distorted in the exile .
anyone else?

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 03:41:47 AM »
Yaakov knew Esau had a legitimate reason to quarrel with him [stolen blessing].  If we feel as if we have wronged someone we too should seek to repair the relationship.

When we have done nothing wrong and evil crosses our path, we must crush the enemies of the Jewish people with no mercy in the ways of Joshua and David! 

As Moshe slew the vile Egyptian who was beating a fellow Jew!

As HaShem dealt with Pharaoh and Egypt!
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Chai

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 03:46:08 AM »
Yea but is this true ?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/kotlerLetter.cfm

Translated http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/kotler.cfm

I can't believe Rabbi Kagan and Rabbi Kutler were in league with the crazy Nk mentality, if so, I guess this is who Kahane was talking about in his book the Jewish Idea.


Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 04:02:19 AM »
Yea but is this true ?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/kotlerLetter.cfm

Translated http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/kotler.cfm

I can't believe Rabbi Kagan and Rabbi Kutler were in league with the crazy Nk mentality, if so, I guess this is who Kahane was talking about in his book the Jewish Idea.


I have been unable to go to either of these links.  It says this:

Quote
The connection has timed out

     

     
     
     

     
       
       

         

The server at www.jewsagainstzionism.com is taking too long to respond.

       


       
       


    *   The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few
          moments.

    *   If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
          connection.

    *   If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
          that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

Could you copy and paste what is said there?  I am not sure who these Rabbis are either.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Chai

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 04:11:14 AM »

    Rabbis Wasserman, Blau, and Kotler

In the summer of 1937 at the third convention of the rabbinical leaders of Agudath Israel held in Mariband, which included hundreds of rabbis, heads of yeshiva religious academies and grand rabbis of Chassidic communities from a number of countries. Rabbi Aharon Kotler attended this convention.

In Hapardes (Year 11, Issue 7) Rabbi Pardes describes what he saw at the Convention: “Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg from Antwerp, rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a “Jewish State” on either side of the Jordan River, even if it were established as a religious statebecause such a regime would be a form of heresy in our faith in the belief in the coming of the Messiah, and especially since this little “Jewish” state would be built on heresy and desecration of the Name of G-d.

The late Rabbi Shlomo Rottenberg (a historian and author of Toldos Am Olam and other works), who also attended the Convention in 1937 used to say that he could still remember what was discussed there, and the harsh opposition of these rabbinical leaders to a “Jewish State” that is a violation of the Three Oaths mentioned in the Talmud. (Rabbi A.L. Spitzer)
[From Lo Sasur (Thou shalt not depart) Page 42 Declaration and Letters,Document 17]

American Israeli Torah Center
5 Beekman Street, Suit 531-2
New York, NY 38

Thursday, of the Torah Portion Emor, May 6, 1954

To: The Esteemed Rabbis and Community Leaders in Toronto

Whereas the situation of children learning Torah in the Holy Land is in a horrific and frightful condition, with every day worse than the previous one, it requires extensive efforts, and we must stand up at this fateful hour under conditions that never existed in the history of the Jewish People.

We would like to present our esteemed friend, the philanthropist ………. who took it upon himself to visit you on behalf of the American Israeli Torah Center.

The American-Israeli Torah Center, which was established here at the request of the great rabbis and heads of yeshivas in the Holy Land has the goal of establishing new Torah schools in the maabarot camps and new settlements , and to assist small religious schools in the Holy Land from joining the government-run school system. These schools also are unaffiliated with the government-supported religious school system [Chinuch Atsma’i]. These unaffiliated schools are organized under the American Israeli Torah Center, and include some 5,000 Jewish children who study Torah with reverence as has been the practice throughout history. The government does not interfere in the curriculum, and does not provide even a single cent. This is the foundation of the existence of Judaism for maintaining the Jewish yeshiva schools and the Torah in the Holy Land.

Therefore, we ask urgently ask you to assist us to try to create great success for this great and lofty goal, and may G-d fulfill in you the verse Blessed is he who sustains the Torah. May you be blessed with all the best.
Yours truly,
Aharon Kotler

READ THE ORIGINAL HEBREW DOCUMENT

Offline muman613

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 07:18:58 AM »
It is truly a perversion of Torah to read a message of pacifism from it. The lesson we learn from the preparations made by Yakov is that we should always be prepared for a military confrontation even while making attempts at peaceful solutions.

The Torah never says that the Jewish people should lay down and be abused by the nations. At every confrontation against the Jewish people in the desert they had a completely armed army fighting against the nations. Hashem assisted us in the war only because we actually had the courage to rise up against the enemy.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 09:07:31 AM »

    Rabbis Wasserman, Blau, and Kotler

In the summer of 1937 at the third convention of the rabbinical leaders of Agudath Israel held in Mariband, which included hundreds of rabbis, heads of yeshiva religious academies and grand rabbis of Chassidic communities from a number of countries. Rabbi Aharon Kotler attended this convention.

In Hapardes (Year 11, Issue 7) Rabbi Pardes describes what he saw at the Convention: “Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg from Antwerp, rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a “Jewish State” on either side of the Jordan River, even if it were established as a religious statebecause such a regime would be a form of heresy in our faith in the belief in the coming of the Messiah, and especially since this little “Jewish” state would be built on heresy and desecration of the Name of G-d.

The late Rabbi Shlomo Rottenberg (a historian and author of Toldos Am Olam and other works), who also attended the Convention in 1937 used to say that he could still remember what was discussed there, and the harsh opposition of these rabbinical leaders to a “Jewish State” that is a violation of the Three Oaths mentioned in the Talmud. (Rabbi A.L. Spitzer)
[From Lo Sasur (Thou shalt not depart) Page 42 Declaration and Letters,Document 17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

Re-reading about the Three Oaths [which is Midrash]...  I still don't perceive a strong case for anti-Zionists.  Even without the Holocaust, the goyim of the world have clearly wronged the Jew for centuries and centuries, we all are familiar with Jewish history.  Israel was given to the Jews, both invited to have a homeland for any Jew who wanted to live there and as a proper nation where we govern ourselves.  The Jews have never instigated any offense against the nations of the world.  If these "highly respected Rabbis" were content to being punching bags for all eternity I, and no other Jew, have any reason to listen to them or take them seriously [on Zionism, and perhaps many other things, G-d forbid.].

In my opinion most Rabbis are not fit to polish Rebbe Kahane's shoes, especially whoever ordains anti-Zionist airhead Rabbis.  They are Stockholm syndrome cowards that ignore the grievous violations heaped upon our people by goyim, and who are content to be victimized more than any other demographic in history w/o standing up for themselves.  I don't know enough about these Rabbis [specifically mentioned] to rate them as harsh as this, but if they have so much influence and so many ultra-Orthodox Jews in America today are not Zionists then it makes me wonder with a heavy feeling in my gut.  They might be the heads of the problematic beast.

Quote


American Israeli Torah Center
5 Beekman Street, Suit 531-2
New York, NY 38

Thursday, of the Torah Portion Emor, May 6, 1954

To: The Esteemed Rabbis and Community Leaders in Toronto

Whereas the situation of children learning Torah in the Holy Land is in a horrific and frightful condition, with every day worse than the previous one, it requires extensive efforts, and we must stand up at this fateful hour under conditions that never existed in the history of the Jewish People.

We would like to present our esteemed friend, the philanthropist ………. who took it upon himself to visit you on behalf of the American Israeli Torah Center.

The American-Israeli Torah Center, which was established here at the request of the great rabbis and heads of yeshivas in the Holy Land has the goal of establishing new Torah schools in the maabarot camps and new settlements , and to assist small religious schools in the Holy Land from joining the government-run school system. These schools also are unaffiliated with the government-supported religious school system [Chinuch Atsma’i]. These unaffiliated schools are organized under the American Israeli Torah Center, and include some 5,000 Jewish children who study Torah with reverence as has been the practice throughout history. The government does not interfere in the curriculum, and does not provide even a single cent. This is the foundation of the existence of Judaism for maintaining the Jewish yeshiva schools and the Torah in the Holy Land.

Therefore, we ask urgently ask you to assist us to try to create great success for this great and lofty goal, and may G-d fulfill in you the verse Blessed is he who sustains the Torah. May you be blessed with all the best.
Yours truly,
Aharon Kotler

READ THE ORIGINAL HEBREW DOCUMENT

Verily, I do not know how to rate the Yeshiva's of Israel's past.  Nor am I am a Yeshiva student in Israel today.  One day I may pursue that course, but I am content with working with the Rabbis I speak with on a regular basis, and the unprecedented amount of Torah/Tanakh/Talmud I have at my fingertips online, as well as the Los Angeles public library system.  Of course, I pay little mind of what anti-Zionist "Orthodox" Jews have to say about Torah based on their views of Israel.  I think they are just as bad, if not worse than, in some ways as the secular atheist Bolsheviks who teach no Torah.  I'm not sure how much I value what these "highly esteemed Rabbis" qualify as criterion for what a good Yeshiva is.  The fact that a student [who comes from an American Yeshiva these "Three Oathers" created and influenced?] could spend time at a Yeshiva, and be oblivious of the basic circumstances surrounding Jacob and Esau's interaction, twisting Jacob into a "noble punching bag" speaks volumes of horrors to me [this is from Bereshit of all the places in Torah!].  I'm willing to trust these guys as far as to certify my chicken and salmon by Kashrut laws, but that's about all I put into places of "learning" that churn out "Tzadakim punching bags".  The bigger a Rabbi is the more upsetting it is to hear nonsense coming out of the mouths of their students.  The fact that these "highly esteemed Rabbis" eyes have been closed to HaShem creating the circumstances for Israel's rebirth is mortifying.  Even Rabbi Schneerson, on this issue, was as dead wrong as one can get [I still like Chabad, and I value other things their Rabbi had to say, but he would never be my Reb.]. 

HaShem created the rebirth of the State of Israel for His own glory; had it not been so He would have never created the circumstances for a pitifully small unprepared army to wipe out the Arab dogs in '48, and '67 [SIX DAYS!!! How blind can these black hats be!?]... even in '73 after the secular chose to put their faith in America instead of HaShem [when HaShem created the circumstances for Israel to wipe out our enemies exactly as in '67 with a preemptive attack and Golda Meir chose to let Jews be tossed into the meat grinder by letting the Arabs attack first in order for Israel to get her economic junkie fix.], HaShem STILL carried Israel to victory over the Arab dogs when conditions for an Arab victory could not be more ideal.

The average Jew may not be a perfect Jew who lives a life of Kiddush, but the Jews as a whole have been tormented enough that the world [for 2,000 steady years, ramping up to the Holocaust] looked at the Jews and said, "where is your G-d?  the Jewish G-d does not exist.  There is no G-d."  Because of Chillul HaShem of the goyim Israel was re-established; G-d wanted to bring Kiddush HaShem in the eyes of the disbelieving hateful goyim that despise even the very notion of the Hebrew G-d.  The Zionists could have, and logistically should have, been crushed like bugs so many times in their, only the acts of HaShem can explain the story of today's Israel.  How a Yeshiva could crank out students who are eager to be "punching bags" and shield them from the work of HaShem... oy vey.

Four fifths of all Jews stated behind in Egypt.

I must apologize for being so long winded.  I've got insomnia tonight.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 09:19:23 AM by Ari Shayn »
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2010, 11:14:49 AM »
His views were very much in league with league with an anti zionist website/


The Torah teaches us not to resist the nations even when they fight against us. We must follow in the footsteps of Yaakov Avinu in his encounter with his brother Esav. As the Ramban writes in Vayishlach, all that happened between Yaakov and Esav happens to us constantly with Esav's children. We must adopt the methods of that tzaddik, to make the three preparations that he made: prayer, a gift, and escape through war, that is, to flee to safety. As long as we walked on that well- tread path, G-d saved us from their hands. But since we have strayed from the path and new leaders have arisen who chose new methods, leaving behind our ancestors' weapons and adopting the methods of our enemies, we have fared worse and worse, and great travails have befallen us.

(Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Devarim)


Let's get one thing clear first.   Yaakov WAS IN EXILE at that time, which perhaps explains an approach adopted by the Jews in exile, but the current situation could hardly be considered analogous when we have a sovereign state and half the world's Jews residing in our homeland.   So even if we take what they say as "correct," that is not necessarily a model for today's reality, and that is not how we (ie the Jewish govt) should interact with the non Jewish nations right now when we have left the physical Diaspora and established self-rule.  In fact, Yaakov was on his way from Lavan to Eretz Yisrael, so in a way, we might relate this to the situation of ending the exile, as in the pre-state days of the "Palestine Mandate" and interactions of the Jewish people intending to return home with the non Jewish governments.    Without elaborating here, I actually see parallels with Yaakov's approach to Esau here bear themselves out historically in those events.  And as chazal say, the actions of the forefathers are simanim (signs) for the sons - the life events of the forefathers repeat themselves as patterns in Jewish history.

That said, I think your response is generally true given what I'm about to demonstrate.  Maybe this will give more substance to the claim.

Now, as I have heard this teaching before, the third portion as you relay it here strikes me as very odd.  What exactly does "Escape through war" mean?  I've never heard of a notion like that before.   In other words, is it war, or is it escape?   War involves fighting in battle.  Otherwise it is simply called fleeing.    I have heard the teaching as 3 basic preparations Yaakov made:  1. gift/appeasement   2. prayer   3.   War.

He literally prepared for war as the midrash explains and you can see from the verses, which Rashi explains.

Using the artscroll translation,
This is after receiving the report from his messengers that Esau was coming to greet him with 400 men...
Bereshith (Genesis), Parasha Wayishlah, chapter 32 verse 8-9: 

8.  And Jacob became very frightened, and it distressed him.  So he divided the people with him, and the flocks, and the cattle, and the camels, into two camps.

9.  And he said, "If Esau comes to the one camp and strikes it, the remaining camp shall be a refuge."


ח. וַיִּירָא יַעֲקֹב מְאֹד וַיֵּצֶר לוֹ וַיַּחַץ אֶת הָעָם אֲשֶׁר אִתּוֹ וְאֶת הַצֹּאן וְאֶת הַבָּקָר וְהַגְּמַלִּים לִשְׁנֵי מַחֲנוֹת
ט. וַיֹּאמֶר אִם יָבוֹא עֵשָׂו אֶל הַמַּחֲנֶה הָאַחַת וְהִכָּהוּ וְהָיָה הַמַּחֲנֶה הַנִּשְׁאָר לִפְלֵיטָה:



Rashi comments there on verse 9:   
וְהָיָה הַמַּחֲנֶה הַנִּשְׁאָר לִפְלֵיטָה
"And the remaining camp shall be a refuge" against Esau's will, because I will do battle with him.  He readied himself for 3 things:  for paying tribute, for prayer, and for war.   For tribute, as in "So the tribute passed on before him (32.22), for prayer as in "G-d of my father Avraham" (32.10) and for war, as in the verse "The remaining camp will be a refuge" (32.9, similarly explained in Midrash Tanchuma) 


Artscroll adds that the Sefer Zikaron, a supercommentary on Rashi, points out that Rashi is stressing the word "and it will be" וְהָיָה
and this reflects the certainty with which Jacob prepares, knowing that certainly the one camp will fight Esau and the other camp will escape harm because it will not be fighting and will serve as a needed refuge.

This addition by the Sefer Zikaron seems to highlight that unlike the first part of the verse which is a conditional (if) - he is not sure if Esau is determined for warfare, but he is preparing for battle in case of that - the second half of the sentence is a certitude that the other camp will definitely serve as a refuge in either case.

If I would be so bold as to offer up some insight into the Rashi, I would suggest that he is explaining a military strategy on the part of Yakov in which he will use the best, most trained and capable fighters split into one camp against Esau while mostly women and children and those who cannot fight will be kept in the camp of refuge away from the battle to protect them from the violence and for regrouping afterwards to treat the wounded soldiers etc.  It would not make sense to send in untrained people into battle.  The "refuge" is only necessary if indeed the other camp is knowingly being sent into battle (if it should materialize).

Let's keep in mind also that this was a war with his brother, and not something he wanted since he set out originally to reconcile with Esau, not to conquer him (see the beginning of the Parasha).   This can explain the tribute aspect, and why Yaakov wanted to push off warfare if we take the sequence of his strategy as a set order whereby war is only the last option.   More generally, we can say this is a basic three-pronged strategy when faced with potential warfare, however all 3 go together, and the "diplomacy option" (tribute) is only one aspect of the three, which is taken off the table if not reciprocated.  That hardly sounds like cowering in fear of the goyim or fleeing.   If Yakov wanted to, he could have simply fled, With the whole camp, back into Mesopotamia or any other direction to avoid the coming Esau and his men, but he did not do that.


So where the idea comes that WAR becomes synonymous with Fleeing, I say with great humility that that indeed may be the galut influence whereby Torah scholars lost understanding of the concept of warfare.  Because this is nowhere evident in Rashi or the verses themselves considered logically.

However, it may also simply reflect that the Chofetz Chaim (if your friend is quoting him properly, which, due to experience, I never assume anyone is quoting chachamim properly unless they prove it), is a rabbi in the exile situation (this is before state of Israel), outside the Land, and he is explaining the approach that should be taken in an exile land such as Poland/Belarus where he resides as he makes his statement.  Indeed it would be logical that if the govt of Radun or whatever town they are in have decided to oppress the Jews and even attack them, the Jews at that time are largely defenseless, and the more logical approach if they are not prepared to fight and will be slaughtered, is to flee to some other town or village where there is no hostility.  Before the shoah, where they sought us out in every corner of the earth to murder our men women and children, this approach was practical.  And indeed, that is the terrible curse of exile and why the cursed Diaspora is such a wretched place for a Jew to remain.   Part of the terror is the fleeing from place to place and not being allowed to assemble arms or train or properly establish self-defense measures.

Hope this clarifies.  You should explain to your friend how ready the Chofetz Chaim was to return to Eretz Yisrael at any moment, and if he had the opportunity he would not squander it by embracing the cursed galut where the only approach is this self-effacing shame of fleeing in terror defenseless from the attacks of non-Jews.  So what will he do?

Offline mord

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Re: A long talk with a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva student revealed...
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 11:23:09 AM »
Rav Aharon Kutler ,i know someone who studied with him maybe his mind changed in later yrs but the person i know was far from being a pacifist.
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03