Author Topic: multiple authors theory? could the "multiple authors" been scribes?  (Read 585 times)

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Offline Meerkat

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this is only speculation. im not at all sure about this. Its just an idea i have that incorporates both the idea that moses wrote the 5 books of the Torah and the multiple authors theory.

Is it at all possible that the "multiple authors" were writing transcripts of Moses's speeches to the Israelites? this could work for both because it is Moses who is giving the content, but it is scribes who are putting it together in a book.

is this at all a possibility?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: multiple authors theory? could the "multiple authors" been scribes?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 10:29:19 PM »
I think the traditional belief is that, the first time, Moses wrote it all himself either in stages over the course of 40 years or all at once while up on the mountain.  (With the exception of certain verses Chazal point out that were not written by Moshe ie those about his own death - although there is mahloketh over this question).   

The question about the manner in which Moshe wrote the text leads to an interesting discussion about the origin of the Oral Torah which the Chazon Ish touches upon (by his standards he was touching upon it and left it sort of open ended, but he shows tremendous depth and make very thought-provoking observations probably no one else could think of).   I wish I could give over a coherent synopsis, but we went through this with my rabbi on Shavuot night and I couldn't take notes, and it was extremely complicated!

The way you describe your resolution seems to me not really to resolve the problem.   Supposing that multiple scribes were transcribing Moshe's lectures and they inserted their own biases, interpretation, etc. we would still be left with the incorrect notion of multiple and contradicting authors of the one text.   If you say that they merely transcribed his speeches word for word without any alteration or any insertion of personal opinion, interpretation, bias, etc.   then that is no different than if Moshe had written it himself.   It's not a problem of handwriting which leads to this speculation, it's seeming differences in different parts of the text.    So I'm not sure I totally follow your idea.    In any case, it is one of the 13 ikkarim of emunah listed by the Rambam that the Torah was written by Moshe and not altered.  And I don't believe we have sufficient reason to doubt that.

Offline muman613

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Re: multiple authors theory? could the "multiple authors" been scribes?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 12:06:47 AM »
Quote from: KahanistLiberal on October 27, 2010, 09:57:09 PM
this is only speculation. im not at all sure about this. Its just an idea i have that incorporates both the idea that moses wrote the 5 books of the Torah and the multiple authors theory.

Is it at all possible that the "multiple authors" were writing transcripts of Moses's speeches to the Israelites? this could work for both because it is Moses who is giving the content, but it is scribes who are putting it together in a book.

is this at all a possibility?

It does not sound like a reasonable explanation. There are many concepts and secrets in the Torah and there are ways the sages can determine the laws and Halachot. I was just listening to a talk about the Torah Codes and I am looking into it in more depth, but basically there are secrets encoded in the Torah which are revealed when looking at a matrix of rows and columns of Torah texts. I believe that the Torah was basically transmitted to Moshe, both the written and the oral laws, and as they learned the laws in the desert Moses would write them down.

There is a question that the sages asked... How did Moses write the sentences which describe what happens after he died. There are some explanations of this..

http://www.inner.org/audio/aid/E_037.php

Quote
The Paradox of Moses' Death

The final eight verses of the Torah describe the death of Moses. Our sages have two opinions as to who wrote these verses. The first opinion is that G-d dictated these last eight verses to Moses' successor, Joshua. The second opinion is that just as the rest of the Torah was written by Moses, so, too, were these verses that describe his death. G-d dictated the verses to Moses, and Moses wrote them with tears in his eyes.

Just as the exact authorship of the verses about Moses' death remains unclear, so the exact location of of his gravesite is also unclear. Our sages describe the paradox of Mt. Nevo, saying that if one is above on the mountain, Mose's gravesite appears to be below him, but when he reaches the point below, the gravesite seems to be elusively above him.
The Mountain of Paradox

The paradox of Moses' death and gravesite relates to the concept of touching and not touching, (as explained in Rabbi Ginsburgh's audio lecture on the Torah portion of Ha'azinu). The paradox of touching while simultaneously not touching is one of the secrets of the Fiftieth Gate of Understanding, to which Moses aspired all his life. He received this fiftieth gate now, moments before his death, at Mount Nevo, (in Hebrew spelled: nun, beit, vav). The essential essence of Mount Nevo is nun bo (nun; beit, vav) "nun is within it." The nun, whose numerical value is 50, also alludes to noge'ah v'eino nogeáh, "touching and not touching --" (the initial letters of noge'ah v'eino nogeáh spell nun) the paradox of the location of the gravesite of Moses and of who wrote the final verses about his death.


Rabbi Matityahu Glazerson: New Torah Codes on Current Events   (10/24/2010)
Quote from: KahanistLiberal on October 27, 2010, 09:57:09 PM
this is only speculation. im not at all sure about this. Its just an idea i have that incorporates both the idea that moses wrote the 5 books of the Torah and the multiple authors theory.

Is it at all possible that the "multiple authors" were writing transcripts of Moses's speeches to the Israelites? this could work for both because it is Moses who is giving the content, but it is scribes who are putting it together in a book.

is this at all a possibility?

It does not sound like a reasonable explanation. There are many concepts and secrets in the Torah and there are ways the sages can determine the laws and Halachot. I was just listening to a talk about the Torah Codes and I am looking into it in more depth, but basically there are secrets encoded in the Torah which are revealed when looking at a matrix of rows and columns of Torah texts. I believe that the Torah was basically transmitted to Moshe, both the written and the oral laws, and as they learned the laws in the desert Moses would write them down.

There is a question that the sages asked... How did Moses write the sentences which describe what happens after he died. There are some explanations of this..

http://www.inner.org/audio/aid/E_037.php

Quote
The Paradox of Moses' Death

The final eight verses of the Torah describe the death of Moses. Our sages have two opinions as to who wrote these verses. The first opinion is that G-d dictated these last eight verses to Moses' successor, Joshua. The second opinion is that just as the rest of the Torah was written by Moses, so, too, were these verses that describe his death. G-d dictated the verses to Moses, and Moses wrote them with tears in his eyes.

Just as the exact authorship of the verses about Moses' death remains unclear, so the exact location of of his gravesite is also unclear. Our sages describe the paradox of Mt. Nevo, saying that if one is above on the mountain, Mose's gravesite appears to be below him, but when he reaches the point below, the gravesite seems to be elusively above him.
The Mountain of Paradox

The paradox of Moses' death and gravesite relates to the concept of touching and not touching, (as explained in Rabbi Ginsburgh's audio lecture on the Torah portion of Ha'azinu). The paradox of touching while simultaneously not touching is one of the secrets of the Fiftieth Gate of Understanding, to which Moses aspired all his life. He received this fiftieth gate now, moments before his death, at Mount Nevo, (in Hebrew spelled: nun, beit, vav). The essential essence of Mount Nevo is nun bo (nun; beit, vav) "nun is within it." The nun, whose numerical value is 50, also alludes to noge'ah v'eino nogeáh, "touching and not touching --" (the initial letters of noge'ah v'eino nogeáh spell nun) the paradox of the location of the gravesite of Moses and of who wrote the final verses about his death.


Rabbi Matityahu Glazerson: New Torah Codes on Current Events   (10/24/2010)


# 9 , Torah Codes,& the Mayan prediction.


Obama in the Torah Codes
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:12:30 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14