Author Topic: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?  (Read 9678 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2010, 10:28:35 PM »
His comments are quite interesting.  He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself.   This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?

Did God tell you an apology is in order?   I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging.   Do you have any compassion at all?   

I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here).  But this comment doesn't need to be said!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2010, 10:32:04 PM »
His comments are quite interesting.  He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself.   This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?

Did G-d tell you an apology is in order?   I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging.   Do you have any compassion at all?   

I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here).  But this comment doesn't need to be said!

I agree with KWRBT... Mr Feiglin has been through a lot and deserves our compassion. Regardless of what he said about Amir and Dr Goldstein he is a good man. Nobody can judge another man unless he has stood in his place [From Pirkie Avot]. What he said about them is not the only issue by which he should be judged.

I pray that his son recovers and Moshe finds more success in Israeli politics.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2010, 12:10:24 AM »
Did G-d tell you an apology is in order?   I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging.   Do you have any compassion at all?   

I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here).  But this comment doesn't need to be said!
Yigal Amir was an innocent Jewish kid who was forced by the Rabin government to try to kill Rabin as part of an act it was setting up to make the right wing look bad. That's not conspiracy, that's known fact. Dr. Goldstein zt"l was a martyr of the first order who knowingly went to his death to prevent a Babi Yar-style massacre from taking place against his brothers and sisters. Feiglin isn't fit to wipe the dog crud off Dr. Goldstein's shoes. None of us are (with the possible exceptions of HaRav Kahane and Chaim Ben Pesach). How dare he denounce an innocent, patriotic Jewish kid and one of the greatest Jewish martyrs of all time. That's beyond reprehensible and unless Feiglin actually apologizes, yes it will affect my opinion of him, a lot.

It doesn't really matter whether or not he said it for the sake of political correctness or he really meant it. If he really meant it, that's even worse.

In any case, I don't see why you disagree with my positions so wholeheartedly. I never cursed him, called him names, etc. I said I would vote for him over any of the kapos in power or jockeying to get into power. But even aside from his views on Amir/Dr. Goldstein, his movement is still, at the minimum, a competitor to Hayamin and vies with it for members and money. Hayamin is the future of the right in Israel, not the Feiglin faction of Likud. It wouldn't matter how big Feiglin's following were to become, as the tyrant Lewinsky would just keep bumping him down to the absolute bottom of the list of MK candidates to deny him a seat. We need a movement to make the worthless brothel known as Likud irrelevant. We need Hayamin.

PS: Why is Moshe Feiglin's son being brought into this? I don't know anything about his family whatsoever and am not judging any of them in any way. This is about Moshe, period.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2010, 12:15:39 AM »
And you think the way to gain popularity is to openly hold up Amir as a hero? I cannot imagine the Israeli public ever being able to accept that.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2010, 12:48:09 AM »
Feiglin didn't need to say anything at all.

If the Israeli public is really fine with the fact that Amir is rotting in jail forever while Shalhevet Pass' murderers and Mohammed Jabarra walk Israel's streets freely, then I will just hold my tongue about them.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2010, 12:59:40 AM »
Feiglin didn't need to say anything at all.

If the Israeli public is really fine with the fact that Amir is rotting in jail forever while Shalhevet Pass' murderers and Mohammed Jabarra walk Israel's streets freely, then I will just hold my tongue about them.

I understand... It is definitely difficult to comprehend.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2010, 07:25:34 AM »
His comments are quite interesting.  He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself.   This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life.  However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2010, 08:50:36 AM »
Feiglin is the scum of the earth for what he said about Yigal and Baruch.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2010, 08:57:24 AM »
His comments are quite interesting.  He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself.   This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life.  However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.

Can you explain why you believe these killings were wrong ?

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2010, 09:19:09 AM »
Did BZK ever express an opinion about Amir or Goldstein?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2010, 09:34:37 AM »
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life.  However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
Otherwise--excuse me!?!?!?!?

Yigal Amir was an innocent kid who was apprehended by Shabak agents and forced to take part in a "skit" simulating the assassination of the cockroach-in-chief Yitzhak Rabin as part of a regime ploy to make right-wing youths look bad. Dr. Goldstein was a holy Jewish martyr who received intelligence from the IDF that the Arabs of a local mosque were planning a massacre and to get ready to treat large numbers of casualties. The army was going to do nothing about it in order to not offend the Arabs now that Oslo had been ratified, so Dr. Goldstein took matters into his own hands knowing that he would certainly die in the process.

Do you even know what the heck you are talking about when you condemn these Jewish martyrs?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2010, 10:00:10 AM »
I'm going by Chaim's repeated explanations on Ask JTF of the incident. The other explanation that is usually given (Chamish's theory that Shimon Peres was behind it) is just crazy.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2010, 10:50:42 AM »
I'm going by Chaim's repeated explanations on Ask JTF of the incident. The other explanation that is usually given (Chamish's theory that Shimon Peres was behind it) is just crazy.

All these conspiracy theories are conjecture.  You are starting to remind me of an OJ juror.  They come up with the most twisted logic imaginable in order to avoid seeing what is obvious.  Amir killed Rabin.  There were dozens if not hundreds of witnesses.  Anybody can put anything out on the internet and find someone who wants to believe it, in fact I remember a professor joking about the disinformation highway (when the internet was known as the information highway).  Amir himself never denied that he killed Rabin and never blamed anyone else for it.  Wake me up if you find some real facts.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2010, 11:06:07 AM »
His comments are quite interesting.  He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself.   This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life.  However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.

Can you explain why you believe these killings were wrong ?

I don't believe Jews should solve their problems by assassinating each other.  I wish Amir well and if Chaim becomes Prime Minister and chooses to pardon him I have no problem with that.  I am also happy that he found a wife,  (although she left a husband to be with Amir (I thought Dr. Brennan Fan found that unforgiveable in Seinfeld's case). and has had children.  On the other hand I think that Amir is being treated unfairly harshly.  Arab murderers are treated better than him and if there are goodwill gestures in which they are released Amir is entitled to the same.

In terms of Goldstein I have never heard any reliable evidence that he knew about a planned massacre that the government was planning to let happen.  There was a major investigation of Goldstein's killings and nobody ever said that.  People who claim that point to his parents having told someone he told them that.  I just don't find that credible.  I am not calling his parents dishonest (g-d forbid) just saying that parents in that situation are not unbiased nor should they be.

Finally let's put aside the morality of these killings.  Let's assume assassinations of Jews who oppose our point of view and indiscriminate killings of Arabs are morally justified.  What practical benefit accrued from them?  As far as I can tell none.  Amir marginalized the pro settler Jews.  People who want to take away guns from settlers for self defense for years have pointed to Goldstein to justify their hideous actions.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2010, 01:28:43 PM »
Feiglin is the scum of the earth for what he said about Yigal and Baruch.

That's ridiculous.   

If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!   

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4384
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 01:47:24 PM »
If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!   

"Feel"? He called Yigal a "criminal murderer" and "a psycophath with a freezing smile". He betrayed him and slandered him like a Leftist filth. Joined the Left's Jihad against him, for Oslo, and against Baruch and for the Islamic terrorists. How is it even debateable?

But it's not suprising. This is the same guy who convinced Jews to vote for traitors like Benny Begin and supported him in the 2008 primaries. All candidates he supported were phony whores who had a right for everything but existence.

This is the same guy that supports the Likud and tries to destroy real Jewish resistance to the regime. What is he doing in the Likud? he gained nothing! He knows the results of the millions of dollars he invested in his campaings - absolute nothing, only more strength to the evil Likud party and more dependence on the evil regime. He gained nothing for the Land and the Nation. I don't buy his innocence and certainly G-d will judge him in accordance with his evil treason of Jewish modern-day Maccabees.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 01:59:13 PM by IsraeliGovtIsKappo »

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 01:57:21 PM »
In terms of Goldstein I have never heard any reliable evidence that he knew about a planned massacre that the government was planning to let happen.  There was a major investigation of Goldstein's killings and nobody ever said that.  People who claim that point to his parents having told someone he told them that.  I just don't find that credible.  I am not calling his parents dishonest (g-d forbid) just saying that parents in that situation are not unbiased nor should they be.

Baruch Goldstein was known to be a great zionist. He was very dedicated and idealistic. He had been doing a wonderful job as a physician in the IDF. He was full of ahavat Israel. He had been heavily exposed to the horrors of Arab terror attacks. I find it very credible that he acted out of the will to save Jewish lives because that's what he had been doing all his life long and because he knew he was going on a suicide mission. He was determined to show the Arab Nazis that not all Jews were cowardly whores like Rabin or Peres, that there were Jews who could do "crazy" things if that was necessary. I also believe that he must have been driven by the desire to avenge the blood of the 67 Jews who were horribly murdered in 1929 in the same place, Hebron, at a highly symbolic moment (Purim).
Does all this make him a "reasonable" man ? Probably not. Does all this make him a great man ? I say yes.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2010, 02:05:20 PM »
If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!   

"Feel"? He called Yigal a "criminal murderer" and "a psycophath with a freezing smile". He betrayed him and slandered him like a Leftist filth. Joined the Left's Jihad against him, for Oslo, and against Baruch and for the Islamic terrorists. How is it even debateable? 

It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement.   He did not say that "for Oslo" -  He is simply against vigilante killing.  It's not so clear-cut of an issue.   That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion!    Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law.   It's a complicated matter.

What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?

Quote
But it's not suprising. This is the same guy who convinced Jews to vote for traitors like Benny Begin and supported him in the 2008 primaries. All candidates he supported were phony whores who had a right for everything but existence.

How could he have been supporting benny begin if he himself ran in that primary?

Quote
This is the same guy that supports the Likud and tries to destroy real Jewish resistance to the regime.

In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?

Quote
What is he doing in the Likud? he gained nothing! He knows the results of the millions of dollars he invested in his campaings - absolute nothing, only more strength to the evil Likud party and more dependence on the evil regime. He gained nothing for the Land and the Nation. I don't buy his innocence and certainly G-d will judge him in accordance to his evil treason of Jewish modern-day Maccabis.

Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?   

Offline Secularbeliever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2010, 04:05:07 PM »
Baruch Goldstein was known to be a great zionist. He was very dedicated and idealistic. He had been doing a wonderful job as a physician in the IDF. He was full of ahavat Israel. He had been heavily exposed to the horrors of Arab terror attacks. I find it very credible that he acted out of the will to save Jewish lives because that's what he had been doing all his life long and because he knew he was going on a suicide mission. He was determined to show the Arab Nazis that not all Jews were cowardly whores like Rabin or Peres, that there were Jews who could do "crazy" things if that was necessary. I also believe that he must have been driven by the desire to avenge the blood of the 67 Jews who were horribly murdered in 1929 in the same place, Hebron, at a highly symbolic moment (Purim).
Does all this make him a "reasonable" man ? Probably not. Does all this make him a great man ? I say yes.<<

I agree with what you say.  To put your good words in other words I think you are saying a good man snapped.  I think he was a good man, I just think the last thing he did was wrong.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2010, 04:53:56 PM »
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement.   He did not say that "for Oslo" -  He is simply against vigilante killing.  It's not so clear-cut of an issue.   That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion!    Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law.   It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.

What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?

Quote
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud. Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.

Quote
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?   
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2010, 05:02:30 PM »
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement.   He did not say that "for Oslo" -  He is simply against vigilante killing.  It's not so clear-cut of an issue.   That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion!    Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law.   It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.

What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?

Quote
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud. Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.

Quote
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?   
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.

You are relaying the conspiracy theory. Please show us the facts... I do not believe that a person would 'act like I'm shooting' the Prime Minister and anyone would actually go through with it. That theory sounds like lunacy.... And why doesn't Amir claim this? All I have heard is that he admitted he shot the PM...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin_assassination_conspiracy_theories
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123871

PS: I will say that there are still questions as to what happened. At times I almost believe the conspiracy theory, but I have yet to see conclusive proof.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2010, 05:08:15 PM »
Here is the article which discusses some of the conspiracy theory points:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123871


Questions Remain; 28% of Israelis Say Amir Didn't Kill Rabin
Tishrei 27, 5768, 09 October 07 05:58
by Hillel Fendel


(Israelnationalnews.com) A poll published by Maariv, Israel's second largest daily, this week shows that 28% of the Israeli public believes that Yigal Amir, who was convicted of the 1995 murder of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, did not kill Rabin. Twenty -six percent of the Israeli public supports allowing Yigal Amir, who was convicted of the 1995 murder of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, to leave prison in 2015.

Even more striking is the finding that 14% of Israelis - and 38% of the religious public - believe that Amir should be immediately pardoned.

On the other hand, 59% of the public, and 32% of the religious public, believe Amir should never be released from prison.

Release for the Brit?
Nearly a third of the populace feels Amir should be allowed out for a few hours when his future baby son is expected to undergo his brit milah, ritual circumcision in approximately one month.

MK Yaakov Cohen of the hareidi-religious United Torah Judaism party said he understands why so many people would like to see Amir out of prison: "True, he did something very grave, but if hundreds of murderous terrorists can be released, then we have to rethink it.  If everything is open, then everything is open."

Later, after being accused of favoring a pardon for Yigal Amir, MK Cohen clarified, "I, personally, am against releasing Yigal Amir. I meant that it is understandable why some would think otherwise. Whoever murders another Jew, and especially a Prime Minister, must remain in prison until his last day."

Did Amir Kill Rabin?
The question of whether it was Amir who murdered Rabin is still a matter of national debate.  Nearly half of the religious public (46%), and well over a quarter (28%) of the public at large, believe that Amir was not the culprit.

Though the Shamgar Commission found that Amir, working alone, was the murderer, many questions have been raised against the official version of the killing.  These include:

• Why did the lone video of the assassination, the Kempler video, focus in on Amir for so many minutes prior to the killing?

Click here to view the full Kempler Video if it does not appear below.

• Why was Amir allowed to stand, unguarded and by himself, in the area that was supposed to be sterile, as documented in the Kempler video?
• Why, in the Kempler video frame released by the government, does Amir's arm appear to be several feet long? And why is his left arm seen shooting, when he is right-handed?%ad%
• How is it that an eye-witness to the event, Miriam Oren, was filmed at the site telling reporters emphatically and repeatedly, "I saw that Rabin was not hurt"?
• How did Rabin's armored car back door close (7:18 min. into the Kempler video) as the car prepared to speed away, with Rabin inside, if no one else was in the back seat, as the car occupants later testified?
• Why was Rabin's wife, the late Leah Rabin, told at first that the entire incident was just an exercise and a fake? Why was she told in advance not to travel with her husband? [source: Ha'olam Ha'ishah magazine, Issue 193, November, 1999, page 21]
• Why was the call, "Blanks, blanks!" heard when the shots rang out? Why did the Shamgar Commission not determine who shouted this?
• Why was the assassin not killed immediately?

The last three questions have been asked publicly by Rabin's daughter, former MK Dalia Rabin-Pilosoph.  Rabin's son Yuval has also raised doubts about the official version, even demanding the re-opening of the investigation into the murder.

Promulgators of the "conspiracy" theories - which are now believed by no less than 28% of the Israeli public, the Maariv poll shows - have also raised the following points:

• Why did then-Health Minister Dr. Ephraim Sneh say on television that night [45 seconds into video below] that Rabin had been wounded by bullets to the chest, stomach, and spinal cord, when in fact the video shows that Amir fired from the back? [Click here if you cannot see Sneh video below]

• Why did the Director of Ichilov Hospital Dr. Gabi Barabash, who was in the operating room when Rabin was treated for his wounds, say on national TV [55 seconds into video below] that Rabin suffered from a wound to his chest, when Amir was seen firing from behind?  [If you cannot see Barabash video below, click here]


Click here for English transcript of Hebrew Barabash interview

Rabin assassination researcher David Rutstein notes the contradictions in the number of bullet wounds, where Barabash says only two wounds - one to the chest and one to the spleen - while Sneh counts three wounds, including one in the back.  Rutstein says the third bullet wound mentioned by Sneh "was just put there after Rabin was already dead in order to match all the eyewitness accounts which stated that Yigal Amir shot Rabin in the back." Rutstein emphasizes that after their initial, live screenings, the Sneh and Barabash videos were never again aired on government-controlled media, despite their historic significance.

• Why did the three doctors who operated on Rabin submit, in their handwritten medical report [see picture below], that Rabin suffered a gunshot wound to the chest, when Amir was seen firing at Rabin only from behind?


• Why did security guard Yoram Rubin testify before the Shamgar Commission that Rabin was shot at 9:50 PM, when in fact Yigal Amir was arrested at 9:30 PM?

• Why did Rabin's driver, Menachem Damti, testify before the Commission and at Amir's trial that he drove to Ichilov Hospital in less than two minutes, when the ride actually took over 20 minutes?  Could this question be connected to the previous one?

• Why did Rabin's top aide Eitan Haber destroy evidence? He told the Commission that he took Rabin's possessions from Ichilov Hospital, and later told the Jerusalem newspaper Kol Ha'ir that on the same night he cleaned out Rabin's filing cabinets at the Prime Minister's office.

• Why did official State Pathologist Dr. Yehuda Hiss remove the mention of a chest and spine wound from the autopsy report, when in fact all the other doctors there, including Gutman, Sneh and Barabash, reported that Rabin died of a shattered spine with bullet entry through the chest?

• Why did the chief judge at Yigal Amir's trial, Edmond Levy, dismiss the testimony of police forensics expert Inspector Baruch Gladstein, who proved categorically that one gun shot was fired into Rabin at point-blank range - about a half-meter closer than Amir ever got to Rabin?

The late Adir Zik, Arutz-7's popular broadcaster who waged a long struggle to uncover the truth behind the Rabin assassination and the campaign of incitement against the nationalist campaign that followed it, often said that his main objection to the official version was the behavior of the guards.  He said that from his conversations with members of the VIP bodyguard unit, he knew they were trained to shoot immediately if a gun is drawn in the immediate vicinity of the VIP.

"VIP bodyguards told me," said Zik, "that if, through some foul-up, an assassin were to fire one shot, he would be filled with bullets long before firing a second. How is it possible that Amir was able to get off not only two, but three shots, without being felled by the guards?"  He concluded that they had been instructed previously not to shoot - and that this could only be if it was coordinated in advance that the "assassin" would in fact be firing only blanks.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2010, 05:19:15 PM »
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement.   He did not say that "for Oslo" -  He is simply against vigilante killing.  It's not so clear-cut of an issue.   That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion!    Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law.   It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.

I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.

At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing.   Some people are against that on principle.

Quote
What did he say about Baruch Goldstein? 

I don't know.  That was what I asked Ron.

Quote
Quote
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud.

Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.

How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel?   What are you talking about?

Quote
Quote
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?   
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.

That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2010, 05:26:59 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2010, 05:29:24 PM »
More information about the 'conspiracy theory'

http://israelstreams.com/?israelinsider.html?http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/6924.htm

http://www.tisanim.com/Web/Sites/hadar/PAGE17.asp

Rabin's assassination - The Real Story
 
Rabin was murdered in his car, Yigal Amir addmitted the murder under the influence of psychoactive agents (MKULTRA)
 
The original medical reports, indicate that Rabin reached the hospital, located less than two minutes away from the Kings of Israel Square where he was shot at 9:30 pm, only after 22 minutes, in an ambulance (not the Cadillac limousine in which he was carried from the site) -- already intubated (with a breathing tube inserted).

At 9:52, Rabin was transferred from the ambulance and admitted to the hospital -- inexplicably, anonymously. None of the doctors treating the unnamed patient initially had any clue that it was Rabin. Only some 12 minutes later, after the bodyguard Rubin entered the ER, was the admission form updated to indicate that the patient, suffering from a single frontal chest wound, was none other than the Prime Minister of Israel.

On arrival to hospital, Rabin had only a single gunshot wound, which was located in his front chest, 2-3 cm above the right nipple, where the exit wound was directed towards the spine at D5-6, accompanied by crushed vertebra and fracture of the neighborhood rib. For about 40 minutes, the doctors provide the patient with eight units of blood and manage to stabilize his condition, although he is still unable to breathe on his own but is still connected to a respirator.
 
At this point, according to diverse reports from medical staff, Shin Bet agents entered the surgical suite and ordered medical personnel removed. A minute or two later, the Shin Bet returning the docrors, asking them to continue the treatment until the government will be ready for claiming the death of Rabin. However,  when the doctors returned to their
patient, they discover, that his death body has been shot two additional times -- in the back. One form, written and signed by the Dr. Gutman, indicates that the time of death was 10:30 and explicitly references only the single chest wound. A second form, which came to be the official death pronouncement, states the "official" time of death at 11:10. All references to the chest wound were subsequently expunged from the hospital records and the videotape of the autopsy "recycled," according to Hiss.
 
Nevertheless, the apparent real scenario could be proved anyway, thanks to one mistake made very recently by Dr. Hiss. This occured after the chest X-ray of Mr Rabin (being protected for 10 years), was presented on TV for few seconds, at the 4/11/95. This exposure was sufficient for recording and freezing one of the chest X-ray images, enabling objective examination of the chest findings. Amazingly, the chest X-ray strikingly confirmed the findings documented on the medical report written by Dr. Guttman at 22.30, that is, that the bullet on the left lung hilum was already removed during operation, whereas two bullets were left on, the one in the spine, which killed Rabin, as well as one of the bullets which were shotted after death, both were removed at the PM examination.
 
Look at the chest X-ray image, showing the bullet that entered through the front chest, 2 cm above the right nipple, which was eventually stucked in the spine (right arrow), causing spina shock, as well as the missing bullet in the left lung hilum, where the bullet residing there being already removed during opreation, actually proving the existence of 3 bullets in the body of Rabin; the unreported chest bullet that killed Rabin, and the two late shots in his death body, ascribed to Yugal Amir.
 
 
What is still missing, is the whole body CT scan (being also protected), which should unquestionably show the bullet in the spine and the crushed vertebra, which was ignored in the official Pathological report.
 
Nevertheless, aside from the first available medical report showed above (which was written immediately after death, thus being authentic), and the chest X-ray showing the bullet in spine (red arrow), as well as a missing bullet in the left lung hilum, both proving that Rabin came to the ER with only one shot in his right front chest (and that's all), also the later
medical reports, despite being written retrospectively after death, and under external pressure, confirm the above findings.
 
For example, the report written post operation, documented obviously the existing of a palpabe crushed vertebra (which was ignored by the latter Pathological report and by the official version):
 
In Hebrew: לערך, שם נמוש ריסוק עצם(D5-6) הקרע בראה מוביל  לאזור ע"ש תורקלי
 
That is, the tear in the right lung is leading to the thoracic spine area (approx. D5-6), where bone crush is palpable.
 
    


To summarize: "Rabin isn't supposed to be harmed in any manner shape or form. The plan is to bring him to the Shabak headquarters. The government would then clamp down on the Right. This explains why there is no blood at the site of the shooting, no spent cartridges, why Shabak [the Hebrew acronym for the Shin Bet] guards didn't kill Amir on sight, why the two trauma ambulance crews (docs and paramedics) stationed 10 feet away from where Rabin was "shot" are rebuffed when they offer to treat the "wounded" Rabin, why people shouted "SRAK! SRAK!" ("Blanks! Blanks), why the Shabak told Leah Rabin that her husband was OK and the whole thing was just an "exercise", and why when a senior police officer from the Police Identification Unit takes the gun used by Amir as material evidence has the gun forcibly (and illegally) removed
from him by the Shabak. The "gun" is returned the next day. Rabin is taken to the Shabak headquarters in the Cadillac limousine: the hospital is NOT informed to be ready for a trauma patient."

Somewhere during what was expected to be a brief and uneventful trip to the Shabak headquarters , where Rabin was to have emerged safe and sound, something must have gone terribly wrong. Someone in the Shin Bet, apparently decided -- either in the car or at nearby Shin Bet headquarters to shoot Rabin and immediately after one shot into Rabin's chest this man is killed by another guard. Eventually, Rabin is transfered by an ambulance, intubated, and delivered to the hospital, initially as an anonymous patient suffering from a gunshot wound.

So, a frontal shot to the chest killed Rabin; after declaring his death and stopping medical treatment, two additional hollowpoint bullets were fired into his body, one into his back from the right and the second to his left hip, after which Rabin was transferred to an operating room where his death was declared a second time.

The latest evidence strongly suggests that the plan was not to kill Rabin but rather -- as the Shin Bet repeatedly did using its "agent provocateur" Avishay Raviv -- to stage an outrageous provocation meant to sway public opinion to support the Prime Minister's policies, to incriminate his opponents, and to permit a crackdown on their activities -- all of which did in fact happen after the "staged" assassination attempt tragically turned into a real murder.

The new revelations further strengthens the evidence of a pervasive and systematic cover-up of the murder in official Israeli circles, beginning within the Shin Bet itself, but pointing also to collaboration after the fact by senior political figures -- those in charge of the security agency as well as legal and medical officials who either forged documentary evidence, concealed it, perjured themselves, or failed to ask the required and in many cases obvious questions about the glaring inconsistencies and stark contradictions in the official version of what happened on that terrible night ten years ago.
 
Finally, all these findings are being now subject to reevaluation by the supreme court, which should decide whether to open again the case.  
 
So who killed Rabin and why?
 
There are several points that must be realized:
 
1. The official murderer, Yigal Amir, like his partner, Avishay Raviv, is actually a Shin Bet man, holding a service card signed by the past head of the Shin Bet, Yaacob Peri. This fact was published by the Observer in 1996, according to security sources. Amir had participated in a security course in the Shin Bet, just before he was sent to Latbia as a security man.
 
In fact, Amir's mother was active in the lefty faction MEREZ.
 
2. Yigal Amir himself made an effort to take all the responsibility fo the murder on himself, and fired his lawyer when trying to challenge the official version in court. Amir at that point represented himself alone. Amir also admitted two additional trials to kill Rabin, one was in Yad Vashem during a demonstration against Rabin, who was scheduled to have a speech there. However, one of his partners was cited the day after the murder that Amir was quite passive in organization of the
demonstration, and excluding one moment he entered the auditorium, telling that he only wants to see how it looks from inside, he did not really stay there or do something strange or suspicous (and eventually Rabin missed the meeting).  So it seems that Amir tried to incriminate himself from the beginning, even when no  peace of evidence really exists.
 
3. At a polygraph test after his arrest by the police, Amir was found lying when telling  he had no partners to the murder.
 
The fourth passenger

The Yediot Achronot reporter Yoav Limor, testified the day after the murder that a forth passenger was sitting in the front seat near the driver. This person was considered by Limor as a policeman.  (Recall, that according to the official version, there was no fourth passenger, only three).
 
Furtheremore, the chief security man in the hospital, where Rabin was taken to, stated he saw through the limousine window a huge spot of blood on the front seat, in addition to the blood seen on the back seat, where Rabin was sitting or lying.
 
In addition, a taxi driver gave a signed declaration to Amir's lawyer, stating that a passenger identified himself as a Pathologist, and holding a card of a doctor, told him during a drive from Jaffa to Ichilov, that he was on duty in Ichilov during the night of the murder and he personally examined Rabin's body (probably before the forensic Pathologist Hiss arrived). This Pathologist marked two lies in the official version. One is that Rabin had 3 gunshot wounds, including one (different caliber) on his front chest. The second, is that another body, a body of a guard from the same event was brought to  Ichilov at that night.
 
The last step

In considering the fact that Yigal Amir could not by himself murder Rabin, simply because Rabin was shot from behind, while he came to the hospital with only one gunshot wound, located in his front chest, and due to the fact that Rabin was jumping into the car after the shots by Amir, which does not feet with the fact that he arrived paralyzed to the hospital
(spinal shock), it makes sense than, that the real murderer was one of the co-passengers in the limousine, possibly the man whose body was brought to Ichilov at the same time as Rabin.

It is possible than. that somebody who knew about the planned exercise of the Shin Bet, took advantage on the situation, and ordered the murder, knowing that the blame will be put on Yigal Amir and the right. Looking imaginary? maybe.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14