Author Topic: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story  (Read 4737 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 06:23:39 PM »
Laws to consider:

Negative Mitzvot

301  Not to gossip, as it is written "thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people" (Leviticus 19,16).

302  Not to hate another in one's heart, as it is written "thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart" (Leviticus 19,17).

303  Not to shame any person of Israel, as it is written "thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbour, and not bear sin because of him" (Leviticus 19,17).

304  Not to take revenge, as it is written "thou shalt not take vengeance" (Leviticus 19,18).

305  Not to bear a grudge, as it is written "nor bear any grudge" (Leviticus 19,18).

.
.
.

315  Not to curse a judge, as it is written "thou shalt not revile a judge" (Exodus 22,27).

316  Not to curse a ruler, which is the King or the head of the Great Rabbinical Court in the Land of Israel, as it is written "nor curse a ruler of thy people" (Exodus 22,27).

317  Not to curse any other Israelite, as it is written "thou shalt not curse the deaf" (Leviticus 19,14).

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 06:26:18 PM »
Laws to consider:

Negative Mitzvot

301  Not to gossip, as it is written "thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people" (Leviticus 19,16).

302  Not to hate another in one's heart, as it is written "thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart" (Leviticus 19,17).

303  Not to shame any person of Israel, as it is written "thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbour, and not bear sin because of him" (Leviticus 19,17).

304  Not to take revenge, as it is written "thou shalt not take vengeance" (Leviticus 19,18).

305  Not to bear a grudge, as it is written "nor bear any grudge" (Leviticus 19,18).

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm
Except Christians, of course! Damn those pesky idolaters!

Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2011, 06:38:02 PM »
Except Christians, of course! Damn those pesky idolaters!

Idolatry is expressly forbidden for Jews... You know this TBF. Do you want to bring this up again?

Unfortunately it was the Christians who killed the Jews through the centuries. Killing Jews because of various reasons inspired by nothing but pure hatred. Yet you are the one who points the finger at me, whose family was driven from Europe by pogroms and genocides.... That is surely ironic, don't you think?

Torah tells us Jews that it is permissible for Jews to marry Edomites after the third generation...

Quote
Negative Mitzvah 54:
Not to exclude the seed of Esau from the community of Israel more than three generations, as it is written "thou shalt not abhor an Edomite" (Deuteronomy 23,8).

Yet you claim that I imply that there is a command to hate the Edomite... There is no such command and I do not hate the non-Jew. I will, as you can see, point out the obvious facts which indicate that the Jews were the persecuted ones, and not the Christians.

The Torah does not say that we must hate non-Jews... But when it comes to Idolatry the Torah does not pull any punches about how serious the sin is. Once again looking at the list of negative commandments we find the following:

Quote
1  The first of the negative commandments is not to entertain the thought that there is any G-d but the LORD, as it is written "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20,2; Deuteronomy 5,6).
2  Not to make a graven image, neither to make oneself nor to have made for oneself by others, as it is written "thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image" (Exodus 20,3; and see Deuteronomy 5,7).
3  Not to make an idol even for others, as it is written "nor make to yourselves molten gods" (Leviticus 19,4).
4  Not to make figures for decoration, even if they are not worshipped, as it is written "ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver" (Exodus 20,19).
5  Not to bow down to an object of idolatry, even if that is not its normal way of worship, as it is written "thou shalt not bow down unto them" (Exodus 20,4; Deuteronomy 5,8).
6  Not to worship an object of idolatry in its normal ways of worship, as it is written "nor serve them" (Exodus 20,4; Exodus 23,24; Deuteronomy 5,8).
7  Not to turn over to Molech, as it is written "and thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech" (Leviticus 18,21).
8  Not to divine by consulting ghosts, as it is written "turn ye not unto the ghosts" (Leviticus 19,31).
9  Not to resort to familiar spirits as it is written "nor unto familiar spirits" (Leviticus 19,31).
10  Not to turn to idolatry, as it is written "turn ye not unto the idols" (Leviticus 19,4).
11  Not to set up a pillar, as it is written "neither shalt thou set thee up a pillar" (Deuteronomy 16,22).
12  Not to set down a stone for prostration, as it is written "neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land" (Leviticus 26,1).
13  Not to plant a tree in the Sanctuary, as it is written "thou shalt not plant thee an Asherah of any kind of tree" (Deuteronomy 16,21).
14  Not to swear by an idolatry to its worshipers nor cause them to swear by it, as it is written "and make no mention of the name of other gods" (Exodus 23,13).
15  Not to proselytize the children of Israel to idolatry, as it is written "neither let it be heard out of thy mouth" (Exodus 23,13); this is a warning to the proselytizer.
16  Not to entice an Israelite to idolatry, as it is written "and shall do no more any such wickedness" (Deuteronomy 13,12).
17  Not to love the enticer to idolatry, as it is written "thou shalt not consent unto him" (Deuteronomy 13,9).
18  Not to leave off hating the enticer, as it is written "nor hearken unto him" (Deuteronomy 13,9).
19  Not to save the enticer but to stand by at his death, as it is written "neither shall thine eye pity him" (Deuteronomy 13,9).
20  For a person whom he attempted to entice not to plead for acquittal of the enticer, as it is written "neither shalt thou spare" (Deuteronomy 13,9).
21  For a person whom he attempted to entice not to refrain from pleading for conviction of the enticer, as it is written "neither shalt thou conceal him" (Deuteronomy 13,9).
22  Not to benefit from the coverings of any object of idolatrous worship, as it is written "thou shalt not covet the silver or the gold that is on them" (Deuteronomy 7,25).
23  Not to rebuild a city that has been proselytized over to idolatry, as it is written "it shall not be built again" (Deuteronomy 13,17).
24  Not to benefit from the property of a city that has been proselytized over to idolatry, as it is written "and there shall cleave nought of the devoted thing to thy hand" (Deuteronomy 13,18).
25  Not to benefit from an object of idolatry, its accessories, or its offerings or wine given as a libation to it, as it is written "and thou shalt not bring an abomination into thy house" (Deuteronomy 7,26).
26  Not to prophesy in its name, as it is written "or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die" (Deuteronomy 18,20).
27  Not to prophesy falsely, as it is written "that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak" (Deuteronomy 18,20).
28  Not to obey one who prophesies in the name of idolatry, as it is written "thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet" (Deuteronomy 13,4).
29  Not to refrain from killing a false prophet nor be in fear of him, as it is written "thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18,22).
30  Not to adopt the institutions of idolaters nor their customs, as it is written "and ye shall not walk in the customs of the nation" (Leviticus 20,23).
31  Not to practice black magic, as it is written "there shall not be found among you . . . one that useth divination" (Deuteronomy 18,10).
32  Not to practice soothsaying, as it is written "nor soothsaying" (Leviticus 19,26).
33  Not to practice divination, as it is written "neither shall ye practise divination" (Leviticus 19,26).
34  Not to practice sorcery, as it is written "there shall not be found among you . . . a sorcerer" (Deuteronomy 18,10).
35  Not to practice the charmer's art, as it is written "or a charmer" (Deuteronomy 18,11).
36  Not to consult a ghost, as it is written "or one that consulteth a ghost" (Deuteronomy 18,11).
37  Not to consult a familiar spirit, as it is written "or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit" (Deuteronomy 18,11).
38  Not to enquire of the dead in a dream, as it is written "or a necromancer" (Deuteronomy 18,11).

That is 38 negative commandments against Idolatry and Avodah Zarah... I think Hashem doesn't want the Jews to engage in that...

That is no comment on non-Jewish belief... But when Jewish people are tempted to follow others... That becomes something which I cannot be involved with, and I will surely complain... I know that is not happening here...



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2011, 06:40:37 PM »
Are you upset that I have questioned your stance on Giffords, or because I've reminded everyone of your agenda at JTF?

Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2011, 06:41:46 PM »
Are you upset that I have questioned your stance on Giffords, or because I've reminded everyone of your agenda at JTF?

And what do you mean 'my agenda'?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2011, 07:04:01 PM »
This thread can't be about to end well  :o

Offline eb22

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2011, 07:20:24 PM »
I think this pretty much speaks for itself:

http://www.jewishtucson.org/page.aspx?id=136353 (Giffords supports the "peace process" while pretending to be pro-Israel)



The following is attention getting from this particular article that you provided. 

'Peace between Israel and her neighbors can only be achieved by direct talks between the parties. Until the Palestinian leadership and other hostile regimes are willing to accept Israel’s right to exist, it will be impossible to achieve peace. I believe that the United States can help by providing a mediator who can be trusted by both sides, like former President Bill Clinton. It’s an approach that worked in achieving a peaceful settlement to the violence in Northern Ireland. People in the Middle East need to know that the U.S. is serious about the peace process'.


I hope that Gab. Giffords recovers from the shooting and changes her views.      The fact that she believed that Bill Clinton could be trusted by Israel is alarming.    Tragically,   she's far from the only person of this opinion.
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

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Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2011, 07:23:56 PM »

The following is attention getting from this particular article that you provided. 

'Peace between Israel and her neighbors can only be achieved by direct talks between the parties. Until the Palestinian leadership and other hostile regimes are willing to accept Israel’s right to exist, it will be impossible to achieve peace. I believe that the United States can help by providing a mediator who can be trusted by both sides, like former President Bill Clinton. It’s an approach that worked in achieving a peaceful settlement to the violence in Northern Ireland. People in the Middle East need to know that the U.S. is serious about the peace process'.


I hope that Gab. Giffords recovers from the shooting and changes her views.      The fact that she believed that Bill Clinton could be trusted by Israel is alarming.    Tragically,   she's far from the only person of this opinion.


Again she is saying something that no leader in Israel would disagree with.  Be becoming appeasing surrenderists, and acting like colonial subjects instead of a sovereign nation they have obscured the lines between pro and anti Israel.  Supposedly (although I find it hard to believe) Clinton is popular in much of Israel.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline cjd

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2011, 07:27:09 PM »
Secularbeliever, I think your post here makes a great point you should go back and try to fix the post so it more clearly shows what part of the post is yours
I think you will find a two headed mountain lion before you find a liberal Democrat who is pro Israel in the sense that we think of.  The Israeli government in the Oslo Process has among all the other fiascos blurred the line as to what is pro Israel and what is not.  When you criticize her, or any politician, for supporting the phoney peace process or the suicidal two state solution they can just retort they are following the same policy as the Israeli government.  That is a very difficult argument to rebut.
Honestly I hope this woman gets well enough to go home with her family however I really do not wish for her to be well enough to return to politics... Brass tacks for me is her policy is very damaging to the well being of America... She was elected to political office here in America and thats where her interests should be... It's very nice that she seems to be supportive of Israel however I even see problems with her level of support there...The woman is a hopeless liberal and as such she deserves very little respect from people of opposing viewpoints.
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Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2011, 07:28:57 PM »
cjd,

Are you ever going to shorten your signature? Yours is one of the biggest signatures on the forum...

I agree with your point... She should stay out of politics. Maybe she can finally find more faith from surviving this horrible attack.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2011, 07:31:04 PM »
Again she is saying something that no leader in Israel would disagree with.  Be becoming appeasing surrenderists, and acting like colonial subjects instead of a sovereign nation they have obscured the lines between pro and anti Israel.  Supposedly (although I find it hard to believe) Clinton is popular in much of Israel.
Yes you are right. When a congressional Republican delegation visited Israel in July 1996 to try to bolster resistance to Clinton's suicide initiatives, they were met with nothing but scorn.

What can I say, most Jews around the world are self-hating. That doesn't give evil, duplicitous, pseudo-Jewish Gentile politicians the right to take advantage of them.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2011, 07:32:09 PM »
cjd,

Are you ever going to shorten your signature? Yours is one of the biggest signatures on the forum...
Not really sure what the relevance of his signature is.

Offline eb22

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2011, 07:35:05 PM »
Again she is saying something that no leader in Israel would disagree with.  Be becoming appeasing surrenderists, and acting like colonial subjects instead of a sovereign nation they have obscured the lines between pro and anti Israel.  Supposedly (although I find it hard to believe) Clinton is popular in much of Israel.

Along the lines of what you expressed in the first part of your reply is what Liz Berney mentioned to MK Tzipi Hotovely this past Monday Night:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,52328.0.html

Like Chaim has mentioned repeatedly,   Israel's greatest enemies are the self hating Jews in leadership positions.    

Despite everything else,   it's totally unacceptable for anyone in a government position to put Israel in danger.     I'm not giving any of the U.S. elected officials who have endangered Israel a free pass.
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2011, 07:39:40 PM »
Certainly we know that the liberal Jews are completely wrong on this, and many other, issues.... I do not support them in any way. But my only point of disagreement comes when it comes to cursing them. We curse the evil, those who stand against us, and want to destroy us. These I curse every day, with my fullest intentions. But I also draw a line between evil and misguided. Those who are merely misguided may come to realize their errors and change their ways.

In the final analysis we are judged by where we end up in life and what we have made out of our life. Along the way people do make mistakes and this world allows us to return and repair our sins. This is a basic Jewish belief which we affirm each year during the days of repentence.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2011, 07:49:47 PM »
For the last time, she's not Jewish. She's not even pseudo-Jewish actually. She is a--a Gentile, and b--she pretends to be Deformed which is not Judaism).

Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2011, 08:11:21 PM »
For the last time, she's not Jewish. She's not even pseudo-Jewish actually. She is a--a Gentile, and b--she pretends to be Deformed which is not Judaism).

Ok, I was talking about liberal Jews... I have said that her status as a Jew is clear, she is currently not counted as a Jew because Judaism is a trait passed from the mother. I am never saying that non-halachically Jewish people are Jews... I have stated this many times and will hopefully never again have to state it...

The separate issue concerns the hope that those Jews who are born in such a situation may somehow come to follow their fathers faith by converting.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2011, 11:17:18 PM »
Yes you are right. When a congressional Republican delegation visited Israel in July 1996 to try to bolster resistance to Clinton's suicide initiatives, they were met with nothing but scorn.

What can I say, most Jews around the world are self-hating. That doesn't give evil, duplicitous, pseudo-Jewish Gentile politicians the right to take advantage of them.

So why should any American politician stick his neck out to be more strong on Israel's behalf than Israel is when they will get trashed for doing so by the very Israelis they are helping?  That is asking for more than we have any reason to expect.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2011, 11:31:53 PM »
Like I said already, the fact that Jews are self-hating doesn't give evil politicians, Jewish or Gentile, the right to take advantage of it. Giffords could have kept her ugly face out of the entire ME issue.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 12:58:06 AM »
I know we are getting off track but I thought Judaism did clearly prohibit abortion except to save the mother's life

You are right, Chaim has stated this many times on Ask JTF.

Here is what the actual Halakcha is regarding abortion in Judaism:


http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/abortion-rhetoric-within-orthodox-judaism-consensus

"The Abortion Rhetoric Within Orthodox Judaism: Consensus, Conviction, Covenant

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Rabbi Yuter is the Rabbi of B'nai Israel, the Orthodox synagogue of downtown Baltimore. He is a faculty member in the department of Bible and Jewish Law at the Institute for Traditional Judaism.

The abortion rhetoric provides the hermeneutic key whereby the contemporary contenders to the faith franchise called "Orthodox Judaism" reveal the moral essences of their alternative constructions of religious reality. At stake in this conversation is the meaning of Masorah, a culturally encrusted code word. According to the Judaism of the Rabbinic canon, or book-based Orthodox Judaism, it is the transmitted oral Torah as preserved for the collective of Israel in the public, vetted literature of the rabbis up to and including the Babylonian Talmud. Masorah is however also invoked as the retort of last resort to resolve the often occurring conflicts between the canonical Torah library and the living culture of affiliating Orthodox Jews. While, in theory, the Orthodox Jew consults the canon, the literary trove of which is both necessary and sufficient source of normative value, in practice this trove is mediated by rabbis, known as gedolim, great ones, or hakhmei ha-Mesorah, Masoretic sages, whose divinely inspired intuition is empowered to parse divine intent and to preserve the cohesiveness of culture based Orthodox Judaism.

This study contrasts the legal rhetoric regarding the abortion issue. What does the plain sense of the canonical library actually prescribe? And what is the view of that version of Orthodox Judaism that bases itself on the intuitive consensus of an elite group of rabbis through a kind of "continuous revelation"?

To accomplish this goal, we examine:

1. the apologia and rhetoric of "pro-life" Orthodox Judaism
2. the actual values encoded in the Judaism of the canonical documents regarding A: fetal life and B: the grounds for authorizing an abortion
3. the actual position of the Judaism of the canonical documents regarding abortions
4. the self-understandings of the two Orthodox Judaisms that compete with each other, in pre-modern and in modern times

1. The apologia and rhetoric of "pro-life" Orthodox Judaism

This version of Orthodox Judaism reflects the publicly proclaimed consensus of those who are self-authorized, empowered, and emboldened to speak as spokesmen [women have no voice in this Judaism] for Torah. The pronouncements of this dialect of Orthodox culture are apodictic, dogmatic, authoritative and authoritarian. For this Orthodox Judaism, conversation is condemned as disrespectful to G-d because G-d's vicarious spokesmen alone are authorized to speak-because they are intuitively endowed-- on G-d's behalf. Persuasion of peers is for this Orthodox Judaism pointless because those issuing bold, culture conservative apodictic rulings are, by their own account, without peer. According to Rabbi Herschel Schachter's understanding of his teacher, Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, great rabbis may rule from intuition or "from the gut," but most rabbis may not even entertain the right to articulate a reasoned opinion. After all, these second tier rabbis do not understand Torah deeply and intimately because they [1] have not been vetted as great rabbis by the clique of great rabbis and [2] these second rate Orthodox rabbis, by dint of their corrosive exposure to non-Jewish and non-ultra-Orthodox culture, are presumably under the influence of un-Jewish heretical ideas, ideologies, and sensibilities. Therefore, in order to be considered to be legitimate Orthodox rabbis, second tier rabbis are required to defer to the pious policies of the truly great rabbis, those untainted by secularity, and forgoing the role of posek [religious authority] and assuming the role of police, who deferentially and piously enforce the policies, positions, and proclamations of the truly authentic great rabbis. To this view, citing relevant sources is insufficient, and otherwise compelling logic is spiritually inadequate. Only those accepted as great rabbis are authorized as Masoretic sages to preserve the ethic, ethos and spirit of authentic Judaism. In this Judaism, authentic Torah opinion, Daas Torah, resides primarily in the charismatic person, rather than in the canonical object, or sacred text. In this Judaism, the sacred Torah serves as the rhetorical resource trove which is sifted, shifted, and manipulated in order to justify the apodictic rulings of the actual and ultimate source of living Torah, the inspired intuition of great rabbis, the actual word of the Lord that applies in contemporary times.

The Judaism "of the canonical documents" is the alternative Orthodox Judaism that challenges the claims of the charisma-led Orthodoxy described above. According to Rabbi Marc Angel, this is the Judaism of the oral Torah applied appropriately to current settings. And according to Prof. Jacob Neusner, this is the Judaism of the Dual, i.e., oral and written Torah, which alone expresses G-d's will as proclaimed at Sinai, in the wilderness sojourn, in the Prophetic writings and Hagiographa, and in the Oral Torah library. Contemporary Orthodox Judaism has undergone change in modernity because it is self-conscious about its religious choice and identity, which is not the case for pre-modern Traditional Jewish religious communities. Modern Orthodoxy's adherents and advocates, this writer included, believe that G-d is revealed in the sacred text as explained persuasively by whoever makes the most reasonable, persuasive, and compelling reading of that canon. Apodictic rulings, declaratory judgments, and ex cathedra decrees are not recognized to be legitimate value statements according to the version of Jewish Orthodoxy that is encoded in the Oral Torah canon. These apodictic rulings may only issue with authority from a Sanhedrin sitting in plenum, but not from post-Talmudic self-selective clerics sitting in clergy conclaves, whose intuition is taken to represent G-d's will.

The charismatic Orthodox Judaism opposes an expanded abortion license by appealing to the sanctity of life and human humility, a code term intended to intimidate ethical initiative, demean the rectitude of the individual moral conscience, and to foster legal inactivity by besmirching and delegitimating those who would dare to revisit classical texts in order to reconsider and perhaps revise practices and policies, based upon a philological reading of the sacred canon. While for the Judaism of the Oral Torah, halakhic discourse rejects mysteries and vague platitudes out of hand, [Dt. 10:28] "pro-life" culture conservative Judaism, representing what it takes to be the moral high ground, with its accompanying legitimating stringency, cannot tolerate a conversation regarding what the canon actually records because with conversation comes the moral demand for accountability.


2. The actual values encoded in the Judaism of the canonical documents regarding [a] fetal life and the grounds for authorizing an abortion

The most relevant Biblical passage informing the abortion controversy is:

When [at least two] men fight and [inadvertently] strike a pregnant woman
and [as a consequence of the blow] the fetuses abort but there is no calamity [i.e. the pregnant woman survives the blow] [the offending culprit] must assuredly be punished as to be mandated by the woman's husband in court. [Ex. 21:22-23]

In this passage, the incident of unintentional feticide is punished by a fine, but the offending culprit is not consigned to a city of refuge, which would be the case were this accidental abortion to be viewed as a homicide [Exodus 21:23]. Therefore, the assault upon the fetus is, according to the Pentateuchal document that every Orthodox Judaism accepts to be the will and word of G-d, the human fetus carries the status of property, but not person.

However, the canonical library of the Oral Torah, the foundation documents of which are also sacred canon for Orthodox Judaism, provides the literary, theological, and legal filter whereby Biblical norms are legally processed and culturally applied. The approaches of our two contending Orthodox Judaisms to this canonical legal filter reveals, en passant, that there are two competing and ideologically incompatible Orthodox Judaisms contending for recruits, recognition, and the collective soul of the Orthodox affiliating community.

The tendentious reading of this passage advanced by pro-life Orthodoxy cites the following Talmudic comment, with its accompanying ideological spin, to be the final, exhaustive, and to its view unquestionable will and word of G-d:

[In the case of] a woman in hard labor [the court mandates] the cutting of the unborn fetus and removing it [from the womb] limb by limb because her [i.e. the mother's] life takes precedence over its [i.e. the fetal] life. [bSan 72a]

According to Rabbi J. David Bleich, only in this case, where the fetus endangers the life of the gestating mother, may an abortion be condoned, and in other cases, i.e., when the gestating mother is not in mortal danger, the abortion procedure is by implication forbidden. [Contemporary Halachic Problems, New York, 1977, 327) But the Talmudic context cited here only refers to a legally mandated abortion. Philologically parsed, this canonical statement prescribes that in a case in which the maternal life, i.e., a legally defined person carrying moral rights, is endangered by a life threatening fetus, which prior to birth is considered to be not a person but property, Oral Torah law mandates the destruction of the fetus, which is property, in order to spare the actual living human person, the gestating mother. The claim, advanced by R. Bleich and others, that an abortion is in fact forbidden by statutory implication, reflects the a priori ideology of the exegete but neither the philological sense of the statute nor the actual norm encoded in that statute. Maimonides astutely and precisely ruled [Laws of the Murderer and Life Preservation 1:9] that this case, when the gestating mother is herself endangered by the fetus she carries, is akin [but not identical] to that of the pursuer, when it appears that one person pursues another person with apparent intention to commit rape or murder, a bystander may take the requisite vigilante action to stop the pursuer, even by killing the presumptive culprit, should circumstances so require.

3. The actual position of the Judaism of the canonical documents

According to what Orthodox Jewish believers, committed to the Written Law as filtered by the Oral Law, are supposed to maintain, the penalty for fetal destruction is a fine, indicating that in Israel's canon, feticide is a tort, not a crime, an assault upon property, not person. The identical definition recorded in Israel's sacred canon also appears in Hammurabi's code. [CH 210, ANET 17-19] The only, but critical, difference between the ethic of the Torah and the ethos of Hammurabi's code is that for the latter, human and property worth inhabit the same moral universe, while for the Torah ethic the human person carries moral rights because s/he carries the image of G-d and may not be reduced to or treated as property.

Pro-life Orthodox Judaism ignores the astonishing fact that the religiously canonical bArakhin 7a-b actually fills the gap of the wrongly and ideologically imputed silence of bSanhedrin 72a. The claim that non-therapeutic abortions must be halakhically forbidden is based [or biased] upon an ideological reading of a passage that only and explicitly deals with a mandated abortion. In bArakhin 7a-b, a woman about to be executed by the court is, if pregnant, aborted, [a] even though the biological father has property rights to the unborn, because the court is empowered to confiscate property, in this case, the fetus for which there is a paternal claim of property concern, and the grounds for taking this action, the destruction of the fetus, is the shame that the condemned woman would endure if executed while pregnant. Therefore, the condemned woman's shame provides sufficient warrant to confiscate what Jewish law in its canonical statement defines as property. We have in this passage an explicit warrant for discretionary abortion.

In search of an anti-abortion argument, Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein ["Abortion: a Halakhic Perspective," Tradition 25 (Summer 1991), 4] contends that [a] since the Israelite law must be more rigorous for an Israelite than non-Israelite, [bHullin 33a], and a non-Israelite is executed for the crime of feticide, [ bSan 57a] , R. Lichtenstein concludes syllogistically, abortion "must" be forbidden to Jews by implication because it is forbidden explicitly to non-Jews. Like R. Bleich, R. Lichtenstein is ideologically predisposed to justify a restrictive abortion ruling and not to read the canon as an objective text scholar applying philological controls, going where the data leads, being disinterested in the resultant findings, and to use R. Bleich's very felicitous idiom, letting "the chips fall where they may." R. Lichtenstein's very clever construction is however parried by the legal fact that non-Israelites suffer execution for assaults on property, while Israelites are not so sanctioned. Thus, the claims that Israelite law "must" be stricter than other legal systems and that only therapeutic abortions are by implication licit, must be addressed philologically, not ideologically. Therefore, in its canonical version, Orthodox Judaism requires an abortion when there is a danger to human life, and considers shame to be a ground to authorize other, i.e., discretionary abortions. Were Jewish law to outlaw abortions undertaken to avoid shame, then the bArakhin 7a-b passage would not appear in the Talmudic canon. In the case of a woman pregnant with an illegitimate fetus, R. Yair Bacharch [Havot Yair 31] was restrictive on public policy grounds, conceding that a lenient ruling might be justified if the letter of the law were the only relevant consideration. Jewish law does allow for policy strictures, but not for ideologically driven misrepresentations of the evidence, here evidence of the popular refusal to deal with or address the implications of the bArakhin 7a-b evidence. Furthermore, the Lichtensteinian position, that stricture is per se a quality of Torah ethic, while finding roots in Tosafot, does not seem to reflect the religion of sacred canon. After all, Nadab and Abihu were both extra strict and extra wrong. [Leviticus 10:1-7]

4. The self-understandings of the two Orthodox Judaisms that compete with each other, in pre-modern and in modern times

While taken in amazement with the creative, innovative, and dazzling apologias for the pro-life position, argued brilliantly by Rabbis Bleich and Lichtenstein, both nevertheless seem to arrive at their respective conclusions prior to their investigation of the data. Neither rabbi advocates a strict construction reading of the canonical law but both appeal to "morality," derived from culture bias, a self-defined "spirit of the law," and what appears to be culture conservative subjective taste. R. Lichtenstein also suggests that there is a normative morality that is beyond the halakha that is nevertheless binding. Pro-life culture traditionalist Orthodox rabbis read the canonical documents as if their intuitions reflect G-d's intentions, and accordingly read the sacred canon selectively, finding in the Torah that ethic which they are programmed, conditioned, and expected to find, and will ignore and, in the case of bArakhin 7a-b, suppress facts, however canonical those facts may be, when those facts fly in the face of deeply revered sensibilities, self-evident intuition, and consensus social policy. G-d transmitted a textual Torah book to all Israel but did not transmit a secret, private, hidden interpretation code entrusted only to a special self-select elite. By allowing the book/text of the Jewish sacred canon to be superseded by policy driven posekim, albeit with the best of intentions and moral instincts, pro-life Orthodox Judaism de jure claims that G-d's Torah, while divine and from Heaven, is transferred to their human hands and authority and is no longer in Heaven. According to the Judaism of the Oral Torah, only the Great Sanhedrin is invested with this power, and without this legislative/judicial institution, Torah is entrusted to all Israel and is read with literary and historical tools and with a public conversation, not with intuitive explanations bereft of review, dialogue, and persuasion.


The abortion debate has a long history in Jewish law. One Tosafist view allows abortion, and another does not, arguing that Judaism cannot be less strict than non-Jewish religions. The restrictive view is often cited, the lenient view is not. While to his abiding moral credit, Rabbi Feinstein unflinchingly cited and addressed the lenient Tosafist view, he argued from conjecture and without a shred of evidence that the lenient view must be rejected because the Tosafist text is corrupt. Maimonides argues that the claim, "Judaism must be stricter than other religions," is inadmissible, that Judaism alone defines Judaism, and we do not spin texts in order to find what we wish to find. [Iggeret ha-Shemad] So for Maimonides, [1] Torah religion is about obeying G-d's law and not being reflexively strict, and we argue that [2] before one claims that a given text should be discarded because it is corrupt, that corruption must be identified and defined, and not merely proclaimed because the textual content conflicts with the interpreter's positions.

The pro-life Orthodox culture conservatives are what Professor Jeffery Gurock calls modernity "resisters," while the scientific modern Orthodox who are committed to a philological parsing of the canon, seek to "accommodate" modernity. For the former, Halakha is not primarily what the Jew must do, it is the lomdus/conceptualism that the rabbinic elite imposes upon the canon so that religious culture not change, the cohesiveness of Orthodox society not become unglued, and its leadership status not be challenged. But lomdus, or "learningness," is a term unattested in Israel's canonical library; it is an invented culture construct created to empower an exclusive rabbinic elite to monopolize the interpretive access to the canon in order to make theologically correct normative judgments. This elite is unabashedly and passionately opposed to the philological reading of the canon because, in the words of the late R. Ahron Soloveichik, academic, philological readings of the canon undermine "the sanctity of Torah." To this view, allowing access to parse the divine word is a recipe for theological, communal, and sectarian anarchy.

Ironically, ultra-Orthodoxy denies the great rabbi credentials to modern Orthodox rabbinic elite rabbis because they are too "modern." When religious legitimacy is political but not exegetical, it is power and not persuasion that invests ideas that are politically correct with religious valence, as these ideas are proclaimed to be theologically correct. Thus, being a "great rabbi" is determined not only by expertise and scholarship, but by politics, culture taste, and social policy. Thus, for Haredi Judaism, Rabbis Lichtenstein and Joseph Soloveitchik cannot be great rabbis because [a] they are Zionists and earned secular doctorates in English and Philosophy, respectively. Furthermore, the reading presented here reflects the influence of Responsa Piskei Ben Zion Uzziel 52, that has been ignored but not refuted by the rabbinic consensus.

The Arakhin passage quoted above is in culture conservative Orthodox circles vocalized "erkhin." [sic] According to Hebrew grammar, the singular erekh, value, in the plural becomes arakhin, not erkhin. And the form erkhin is also grammatically improper because were the form to exist-which it does not-it would be vocalized erkin, with a "k". In order to condition its affiliating community not to read Israel's sacred canon philologically, like the early authorities, i.e., the rishonim, and in our time, R. Uzziel, there may be no applied study of grammar, syntax, semantics, or hermeneutics in culture conservative, pro-life, modernity resisting Orthodoxy. By obfuscating the tradition/masora of canonically correct Hebrew, the Tradition of canonical text is replaced with and is superseded by the "tradition" of culture conservatives who are singularly endowed to divine G-d's true intentions.


The other Orthodoxy, populated by the militant moderates of Modern Orthodoxy, are committed to philology because this Orthodoxy pines to hear and obey the actual voice of the living G-d as revealed in the Torah's living words. G-d did not entrust the Torah to any sacred synod of Torah sages, but to the collective of Israel, Morasha kehillat Ya'akob. Maimonides ruled not based on human charisma, but the best reasoning based upon the best rendering of the canonical reading. Culture conservative modernity- resisting Orthodoxy prizes conformity in practice, dress, thought and attitude; the moderate militants of Modern Orthodoxy culture accommodators believe that G-d's unchanging principles apply to ever changing social realities. The culture conservative Orthodox looks to the sociology of the community and is therefore ironically similar to the Reconstructionist approach, which claims that ultimate religious normativity is grounded in social rather than in theological and covenantal concerns.

R. Ya'ir Bachrach [Responsum 31] ruled restrictively regarding the termination of a fetus conceived in adultery on policy grounds. Policy claims must persuade but may not intimidate. They certainly may not claim that their voice is G-d's voice. G-d gave the Torah to "us," the collective called Israel, not to an elite, save the Great Sanhedrin; not to a clique, however convinced it may be by its self- selecting consensus, and not by partisans of any party. Like the statutes/mishpatim that are rational and are intended to persuade, we welcome conversation, not coercion, reason, not reproach, and ideas, not ideology.

The abortion debate within Orthodox Judaism reveals that there are two contenders for the mantle of Orthodoxy. The modernists read the sacred canon and its law literally, the Biblical and rabbinic narratives figuratively, and find G-d in the sacred text. Orthodoxy's culture conservatives read the law figuratively and the narratives literally so that critical thinking be suppressed, so that G-d's presence is transferred from the holy text to the holy person. The modernists read texts critically because they want to know how to think; Orthodoxy's anti-modernists read their agenda into the text because [1] the Jew is taught what to think and [2] challenging those who tell others what to think is akin to challenging G-d. Which version of Orthodoxy do you, the reader, believe to be the true seeker of G-d's will?"



EDIT:  I dont know why some of this article is bolded still, I tried to edit the 'b' in brackets to a non-code B:, but it seems the change did not take [yet?  maybe it will after some time has sunk in?].  Anyway, I was not trying to highlight anything in particular by the bold.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 02:41:49 AM by Ari Ben-Canaan »
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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Offline muman613

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Re: I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2011, 01:26:32 AM »
Wow,

That is quite complex to understand. So it explains what I had posted earlier that there does exist some disagreement between the Rabbis on the issues.

I have heard parts of this argument before:

Quote
In search of an anti-abortion argument, Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein ["Abortion: a Halakhic Perspective," Tradition 25 (Summer 1991), 4] contends that [a] since the Israelite law must be more rigorous for an Israelite than non-Israelite, [bHullin 33a], and a non-Israelite is executed for the crime of feticide, [ bSan 57a] , R. Lichtenstein concludes syllogistically, abortion "must" be forbidden to Jews by implication because it is forbidden explicitly to non-Jews. Like R. Bleich, R. Lichtenstein is ideologically predisposed to justify a restrictive abortion ruling and not to read the canon as an objective text scholar applying philological controls, going where the data leads, being disinterested in the resultant findings, and to use R. Bleich's very felicitous idiom, letting "the chips fall where they may." R. Lichtenstein's very clever construction is however parried by the legal fact that non-Israelites suffer execution for assaults on property, while Israelites are not so sanctioned. Thus, the claims that Israelite law "must" be stricter than other legal systems and that only therapeutic abortions are by implication licit, must be addressed philologically, not ideologically. Therefore, in its canonical version, Orthodox Judaism requires an abortion when there is a danger to human life, and considers shame to be a ground to authorize other, i.e., discretionary abortions. Were Jewish law to outlaw abortions undertaken to avoid shame, then the bArakhin 7a-b passage would not appear in the Talmudic canon. In the case of a woman pregnant with an illegitimate fetus, R. Yair Bacharch [Havot Yair 31] was restrictive on public policy grounds, conceding that a lenient ruling might be justified if the letter of the law were the only relevant consideration. Jewish law does allow for policy strictures, but not for ideologically driven misrepresentations of the evidence, here evidence of the popular refusal to deal with or address the implications of the bArakhin 7a-b evidence. Furthermore, the Lichtensteinian position, that stricture is per se a quality of Torah ethic, while finding roots in Tosafot, does not seem to reflect the religion of sacred canon. After all, Nadab and Abihu were both extra strict and extra wrong. [Leviticus 10:1-7]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14