Author Topic: I've been thinking...  (Read 3917 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2011, 04:24:17 PM »
I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.

However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.

I think that it is clear that most JTF Jews who support Rabbi Kahanes message are all for a strong powerful Jewish military which is capable of defeating all enemies..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline mord

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2011, 04:27:39 PM »
Yaacov is your wife pro Israel i know that sounds like a dumb question but my Brothers ex wife was Jewish and she turned out to be extremely anti Israel.My Brother had to divorce she was worse then the JStreet people
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2011, 04:29:42 PM »
I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.

However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.

On your first point, that is the definition of faith.  After the shoah an israel was born and still survives despite the odds. So because of that, I have faith in Gd an invisible "beyond" that a rationalist humanist can't prove His existence. Heaven and moshiach are the other two which I used to struggle with. But without those two, this world spiritually makes no sense.

And yes, have to be smart and well equipped to have a strong army. But guess what? We're still out numbered. Still need torah. Still need Hashem with that equipment. We need to survive, right? We have to fight for something other than surviving. Aren't we a people? But what is our nation? we aren't a race. I culture came from somewhere. It's the only thing that works for us because when we dio something differently that isn't our culture we end up like the 6 million who perished or like the slaves of egypt or the jews of persia, or what could be coming our way in america.

in our little brains in our little made up world we have no foresight. But with torah we have hindsight to help our people and ourselves for the future.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2011, 04:35:43 PM »
I never said any of this stuff.  You saw something in my post that wasn't there and you reacted irrationally because you're in a defensive posture.  Why I'm "quibbling" is because I think you misinterpreted my comment as an attack on you and I don't intend to attack you.

Why did you put all those terms into my mouth which I never said about you?  Is it because since I'm a religious Jew on the forum you perceive me as an enemy from this point forward?   If so I think you should reconsider.

KWR BT,

Religious Jews are NOT my ennemies, I respect them and even admire many of them, starting with Rabbi Meir Kahane !
Your post WAS an attack. If you fail to understand that I feel attacked when you call me a liar and suggest that I am a traitor, what can I say ?
But why don't we just get over this ? As far as I'm concerned, there won't be any hard feeling. It's already past us. I find many of your posts very interesting and I do want to maintain friendly relations with you.


Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2011, 04:38:18 PM »
I thought the sentence I quoted meant you think that I must leave my wife but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

All I said it's the right thing to do like being shomer shabat or making aliyah is the right thing to do. I don't do the last two. I acknowledge its wrong that I don't do these things, but I have to live my life and one day Gd will give me the strength to do the right thing.

And I realize that you love your wife. I don't fault you for feeling disturbed about the concept of divorce and I leave it at that since I have no life experience in such a thing and I empathize with you. I wish I knew of a right answer, but I dont have one.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2011, 04:57:57 PM »
KWR BT,

Religious Jews are NOT my ennemies, I respect them and even admire many of them, starting with Rabbi Meir Kahane !
Your post WAS an attack. If you fail to understand that I feel attacked when you call me a liar and suggest that I am a traitor, what can I say ?
But why don't we just get over this ? As far as I'm concerned, there won't be any hard feeling. It's already past us. I find many of your posts very interesting and I do want to maintain friendly relations with you.



I suggested you were a traitor?  Where?

Again it was YOU who stated to the forum that you were not being honest.  That doesn't make you a liar but it does mean that you lied about a particular thing (or things).  If you deny that you lied then there is nothing to talk about but I thought you had made that pretty clear that you're not denying that.  So why is talking about it forbidden?  I do not like when people misrepresent themselves here because many times it turns out really rotten with such people.  So I was surprised you were doing that (because I like you) and hope you won't get a vandetta against JTF like others have - traitor or no traitor.

There's plenty to speak about regarding the rest of what you wrote but we cannot do that if you'll keep putting words in my mouth. - which is actually one of the things I take issue with about your original post as a whole.  I believe you are artificially making this into a religious/secular divide where there really isn't one necessarily.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2011, 05:06:11 PM »
Yaacov is your wife pro Israel i know that sounds like a dumb question but my Brothers ex wife was Jewish and she turned out to be extremely anti Israel.My Brother had to divorce she was worse then the JStreet people

No it's not a dumb question. It's actually an embarrassing one for me because I say she is a wonderful person and it is true to a very large extent EXCEPT that she is not enough pro-Israel. She is definitely not left-wing on this crucial issue, thank G-d, but she doesn't want to get too involved. She is rather worried about my strong political views. She finds it hard to believe some of the things I tell her, although they are true.
It is not easy for me.

Offline mord

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2011, 05:15:58 PM »
No it's not a dumb question. It's actually an embarrassing one for me because I say she is a wonderful person and it is true to a very large extent EXCEPT that she is not enough pro-Israel. She is definitely not left-wing on this crucial issue, thank G-d, but she doesn't want to get too involved. She is rather worried about my strong political views. She finds it hard to believe some of the things I tell her, although they are true.
It is not easy for me.
Oh because my brothers wife after he married he found out that she was extremely anti Israel
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2011, 05:18:03 PM »
I suggested you were a traitor?  Where?

Again it was YOU who stated to the forum that you were not being honest.  That doesn't make you a liar but it does mean that you lied about a particular thing (or things).  If you deny that you lied then there is nothing to talk about but I thought you had made that pretty clear that you're not denying that.  So why is talking about it forbidden?  I do not like when people misrepresent themselves here because many times it turns out really rotten with such people.  So I was surprised you were doing that (because I like you) and hope you won't get a vandetta against JTF like others have - traitor or no traitor.

There's plenty to speak about regarding the rest of what you wrote but we cannot do that if you'll keep putting words in my mouth. - which is actually one of the things I take issue with about your original post as a whole.  I believe you are artificially making this into a religious/secular divide where there really isn't one necessarily.


Here we go again... What exactly is the difference between saying that someone is a liar and that someone lied about particular things ? I don't recognize you, KWR BT. Do you really want this nonsense to go on ? Why won't you stop ?

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2011, 05:26:36 PM »
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings. In any case, JTF is a great forum to debate.
Have a nice shabbat.

Offline muman613

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2011, 05:56:26 PM »
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings. In any case, JTF is a great forum to debate.
Have a nice shabbat.


Shabbat Shalom!


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline mord

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2011, 06:02:33 PM »
Good Shabbos
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2011, 08:26:38 PM »
Here we go again... What exactly is the difference between saying that someone is a liar and that someone lied about particular things ? I don't recognize you, KWR BT. Do you really want this nonsense to go on ? Why won't you stop ?


I really cannot comprehend how you don't see a difference.

I'm not asking this to be a jerk, I ask because you are from france from what I remember -  is english your first language?   I think its pretty clear there's a big difference.   If someone comes to a loved one and says I'm sorry, so-and-so but I haven't been completely honest about xyz, then explains what the reason was and why they didn't say it all openly before, etc... that is not the same thing as going to someone and saying I'm sorry so-and-so but I'm a liar.    Yet they did in fact lie about xyz for some reason they wish to explain.   Yaakov, what is the big deal?   Did you know that Yaakov (son of Isaac) lied to his father once?   I don't think that makes him "a liar" nor does it make him a bad person G-d forbid.

It seems you're just not understanding what I mean by my comments.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 09:39:32 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Lisa

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2011, 08:33:28 PM »
I don't understand how Yaakov Mendel was not being honest.  When did he ever say he was very religious? 

KWRBT, I think what you might be referring to is Yaakov's question to Chaim on Ask JTF a while ago about convincing non-religious people he knows to be pro-Israel for secular reasons (of which there are several). 

Anyway I like both Yaakov's and KWRBT's posts a lot. 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2011, 09:38:30 PM »
I don't understand how Yaakov Mendel was not being honest.  When did he ever say he was very religious? 

KWRBT, I think what you might be referring to is Yaakov's question to Chaim on Ask JTF a while ago about convincing non-religious people he knows to be pro-Israel for secular reasons (of which there are several). 

Anyway I like both Yaakov's and KWRBT's posts a lot. 

Yes, I did clarify earlier in this thread, I was speaking about when he said he didn't like that argument because it wouldn't appeal to his secular friends.  But really he doesn't find it appealing himself.  That's really all I was talking about in this whole thread but my initial post was taken somewhere else I never intended it.