Author Topic: Biblical question  (Read 2258 times)

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Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Biblical question
« on: March 24, 2011, 02:26:17 PM »
I'm pretty sure there is a verse in the Bible concerning the Arabs that states something like 'they will have their hands at each others throats and others will raise hands against them'.

Can someone provide the exact language and context of this passage ?

Is this related to the 'wild asses' passage ?

Was it a prophesy ? If so, from which Prophet ? Does it pertain specifically to the end times ?

I'm curious because the 'wild asses' are especially out of control at this time.

Offline muman613

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 02:43:21 PM »
I'm pretty sure there is a verse in the Bible concerning the Arabs that states something like 'they will have their hands at each others throats and others will raise hands against them'.

Can someone provide the exact language and context of this passage ?

Is this related to the 'wild donkeys' passage ?

Was it a prophesy ? If so, from which Prophet ? Does it pertain specifically to the end times ?

I'm curious because the 'wild donkeys' are especially out of control at this time.

You refer to the reference to Ishmael, the forefather of the arab peoples...

He is the half-brother of Yitzak, son of Abraham our father.

The Torah of Moses, in the book of Genesis, says this about Ishmael:

Quote
Genesis 16:11-15
11. And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Behold, you will conceive and bear a son, and you shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your affliction.
12. And he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be upon all, and everyone's hand upon him, and before all his brothers he will dwell."
13. And she called the name of the Lord, Who had spoken to her, "You are the God of seeing," because she said, "Have I seen[him]here also after I have seen?"
14. Therefore the well was called Be'er Lachai Ro'i; behold it is between Kadesh and between Bered.
15. And Hagar bore a son to Abram, and Abram named his son, whom Hagar had borne, Ishmael.

I believe this is what you are referring to. This is more than prophecy, it is the word of Hashem as written by Moses...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline syyuge

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 03:28:36 PM »
Genesis 16:12
He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Genesis 16:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 16 (Whole Chapter)

Genesis 16:12
He shall be a wild donkey of a man,his hand against everyoneand everyone’s hand against him,and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."
Genesis 16:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 16 (Whole Chapter)
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 04:49:54 PM »
Actually in the Hebrew it calls him a man-like wild donkey.  His primary nature is as a donkey, not a man.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »
"He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Pretty accurate description of today's Arab world.

Seems the apple of the Arab forefather hasn't fallen far from the tree.

Offline muman613

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 05:04:39 PM »
"He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Pretty accurate description of today's Arab world.

Seems the apple of the Arab forefather hasn't fallen far from the tree.

But we must not discount Ishmael nor his descendents... Remember that through the name 'Ishmael' which means 'G-d will hear' means that the nation of Ishmael will be able to pray to Hashem. It poses a very real danger to Israel which means, roughly, 'Wrestled with G-d' the name which the angel gave Jacob after he wrestled with the angel.

At the end of days this will play a very real problem for us...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 05:05:46 PM »
http://torahcode.us/torah_codes/ishmael/ishmael1.shtml



The Biblical Conflict: Ishmael and Israel

Ishmael, whose name means G-d will hear, is the patriarch of that part of the semitic people who today are known as Arabs. In Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer we read,

    Why was his name called Ishmael? Because in the future, the Holy One blessed be He, will hearken to the cry of the people arising from the oppression which the children of Ishmael will bring in the land the last [of] (days). (Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer, M. Friedlander, trans., Varda Books, Skokie, 2004, p. 266)

To the cry of the people means to the cry of the people Israel. In the land, means in the land of Israel. The oppression referred to means the last stage of the conflict between Israel and Ishmael, the stage that is to occur in the times just before time of the Messiah.

The conflict between Israel and Ishmael begins in biblical times when the patriarch Abraham sends away his concubine Hagar with her child Ishmael.

Why does he send them away? Because Sarah has paid attention to what Ishmael is doing with Isaac. She sees that he מצחק, taunts or mocks, Isaac (Genesis 21:9). On the one hand, as explained by Rabbi Hirsch, Ishmael makes fun of the religious teachings that Abraham is teaching his son Isaac.

    He [Ishamel] took in just as much of the great ideas of Abraham to make him ironically disdain them, and over that which the world in general greeted merely with laughter in which derision was only lightly mixed. The Pentateuch Genesis, Samson Raphael Hirsch, Isaac Levy trans., Judaica Press, Ltd, Gatehead 1989, p. 354.

On the other hand, the term מצחק is used in several other ways in scripture: idolotry (Exodus 32:6); fooling around, jesting (Genesis 19:6); sexual play between man and wife (Genesis 26:8); adultery (Genesis 39:17); and murder [where the צ is exchanged for a ש] (II Samuel 2:14).

Midrash Rabbah provides more details. With regard to sexual play,

    Sarah saw Ishmael ravish maids, seduce married women and dishonour them. (Midrash Rabbah, Genesis I, H. Freedman, trans., The Soncino Press, London, 1983, p. 470.)

With regard to idolotry,

    Sarah saw Ishmael build alters, catch locusts and sacrifice them. (ibid. p. 470.)

With regard to murder,

    R. Azariah said in R. Levis name: Ishmael said to Isaac,

        Let us go and see our portions in the field.

    Then Ishmael would take a bow and arrows and shoot them in Isaac's direction, whilst pretending to be playing. (ibid. p. 470.)

From this we conclude that Ishmael not only made fun of Abraham, his father's teachings, but that he as well attempted sexual play with unmarried and married women, that he engaged in practices of idolotry, and that he attempted to murder Isaac by what would seem like a chance accident with bow and arrow.

Thus Sarah tells Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away. Sending Ishmael away means disinheriting Ishmael. And G-d tells Abraham to listen to Sarah. (Genesis 21:12.)
 
Ishmael: A Wild Man

The Torah tells us just before the time that Ishmael is conceived that Hagar's son Ishmael would be a פרא אדם, pere adam, a phrase whose syntax literally means a wild one in the form of a man, although it is typically translated simply as wild man. (Genesis 16:12.)

The Ramban interprets פרא אדם in the following way:

    The correct interpretation is that פרא אדם is a construct form meaning that he will be a wild-donkey man accustomed to the wilderness going forth to his work, seeking for food, devouring all and being devoured by all. (Ramban: Commentary on the Torah, Vol 1, Genesis, Charles Chavel trans., Shilo Publishing House, New York, 1971, p 214.)

Rabbi Hirsch says that a wildman cannot bear constraint. He who has no constraint, will be contrary to and in everyone's face. We add that constraint here can also be understood as the constraint of reason. Rabbi Hirsch writes

    He will quietly take up and maintain his [unreasonable] position in spite of all his brothers. Nobody will be his friend and still nobody will dare to oppose him. (Samson Raphael Hirsch, The Pentateuch, Genesis, Translation and Commentary, Isaac Levy trans., Judaica Press, Ltd, Gatehead 1989, p. 288)

The principal character trait of a wildman is passion and lust. To whatever the wildman does, there is a hot-headed emotional passion and lust. It is natural therefore to check the key word Wildman with the key word Lust and the key word Ishmael with the key word Lust. The first pairing is not statistically significant. For the second pairing we obtain a statistically significant result. With the expected number of ELSs set to 40, the probability that a text from the ELS random placement text population would produce a table as small as that produced by the Torah text is 81.5/10,000.





You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 05:23:28 PM »
One more Torah based analysis {with a dabbling of Kabbalah} from Chabad:



http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380312/jewish/The-Final-Battle-with-Ishmael.htm

The Final Battle with Ishmael
By Pinchas Winston


The Midrash speaks of four exiles in advance of Mashiach's arrival and the Final Redemption: Babylonian, Median, Greek, and Roman (Bereishit Rabba 2:4). Yet the Zohar speaks of another aspect of exile at the End of Days:

...The descendents of Ishmael will go up at that time [End of Days] with the nations of the world against Jerusalem... (Zohar 1:119a)

There is a tradition that Ishmael will be the final extension of the Roman Exile. It will be with his descendants that the final generation of Jews before the redemption will have to contend. This is supported by the Midrash:

Israel will say to the king of the Arabs, "Take silver and gold and leave the Temple." The king of the Arabs will say, "You have nothing to do with this Temple. However, if you want, choose a sacrifice as you did in the past, and we will also offer a sacrifice, and with the one whose sacrifice is accepted, we will all become one people." The Jewish people will offer theirs, but it will not be accepted because the Satan will lay charges against them before The Holy One, Blessed is He. The descendents of Kedar will offer theirs, and it will be accepted.... At that time, the Arabs will say to Israel, "Come and believe in our faith," but Israel will answer, "We will kill or be killed, but we will not deny our belief!" At that time, swords will be drawn, bows will be strung and arrows will be sent, and many will fall... (Sefer Eliyahu, Pirkei Mashiach, p. 236)

Furthermore, says the Zohar:

[During the Resurrection of the Dead], many camps will arise in Land of the Galilee, because that is where Mashiach is going to be revealed, since it is part of Joseph's territory. It will be the first place to be destroyed. It will begin there ahead of all other places, and then spread to the nations... (Vayakhel 220a)

When the latest Intifadah began, one of the first places to be destroyed was the Tomb of Joseph. The barbaric destruction of this Jewish holy site caught the world's attention, though the damage could not be reversed.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 05:32:45 PM »

It is striking how today's Arabs behavior fits Ishmael's behavior.

Offline syyuge

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Re: Biblical question
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 02:36:53 PM »
Overall direction of the things must be getting in order or disorder. I think the only symptom that is falling short is that "Descendent's of Kedar will offer theirs, and it will be accepted".
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.