Sefardi Chief Rabbis: good & bad

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yacov, how did I insult him? I repeated his position that sparing Arab life is a worthy cause. How did I use anything insulting or derogatory?

[TheCoon]

kahaneloyalist, stop trying to deflect. I apologized for my inappropriate and stupid comments.

[Dominater96]

Yacov, how did I insult him? I repeated his position that sparing Arab life is a worthy cause. How did I use anything insulting or derogatory?

It seems you do not understand his position. He holds that if giving away land will save JEWISH life, then it is permitted to give it up, to save JEWISH LIVES.

[TheCoon]

So as long as he bases his political decisions on his interpretation of the Jewish faith, people are not allowed to question him on it?

I'm trying to understand.

[Dominater96]

No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.

[TheCoon]

Can you provide proof backing up the notion he cannot be questioned? What do you think of Chaim disagreeing with Rav Yosef on the giving away from land for peace?

Dominator, can you understand the discomfort of non-Jews who believe Israel should never give an inch of land?

[ftf]

No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.

The Jews are not a master race, I see nothing in the tanakh to suggest that Jews who have studied the torah a lot are always right either, to say someone's word cannot be challenged is to put them on a level with God, now I'm opposed to resorting to personal insults, but if it seams clear that someone is wrong on a key issue, what's wrong with pointing it out? And don't give me the word of some other Rabbi or scholar, they could potentially be wrong, if you haven't got a logical coherrant argument, or a direct quote from a prophet or God himself, then shut up.

[Dominater96]

This is off the top of my head, but its the best I can do without opening a sefer. Theres a story of Rabban Gamliel (the Nasi), and Rabbi Yehoshua, about when the date of yom kippur really was. Long story short Rabbam Gamliel made rabbi yehoshua bring items to beit hamidrash, that wouldve been forbidden to bring on yom kippur, on the day that Rabbi yehoshua thought was yom kippur, to show that you have to listen to the chief rabbi. Rabbi Gamliel ended up ended up getting in trouble for embarrasing him, but he was right in making the rest of the Jews make sure they listen to the chief rabbi. Kal vachomer, a person who doesnt know the halachot, and isnt even a jew, to criticize a gadol hador, let alone one of the biggest rabbis of the generation. That is why Rabbi Eliyahu, and rabbi Elyashev, and Rav Shapira can disagree with him, because they are also great, learned, Gedoli hador.I dont remember the page of the masechet right now, but ill think a little bit. Ill find some other sources in yeshivah tommorow.

[ftf]

That is not a logical coherrant argument for putting chief rabbis beyond criticism. It's just an example of one guy messing up.

[Lisa]

Guys, leave Chaimfan alone.  He wasn't calling Rabbi Yosef names, just stating why he disagrees with the man.  He's an excellent member of this forum, and is entitled to his opinion, as we all are.  So let's all stick to the facts here and not jump down Chaimfan and Thunderbolt's throats. 

[Dominater96]

Sure, all Shas wants is money. Thats why they were made, and that is why they exist, to get money from the gov't to give to kollel men.

[Lisa]

No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.

I'm sorry but Rabbis are not G-d.  They are human and fallible.  And people on the forum have every right to either agree or disagree with them as long as they are civil, and use facts to back up their assertions. 

Now I am Jewish, and I have never ever heard my parents, or any of my relatives saying any rabbi is above disagreement or criticism. 

[Lisa]

And there's one more thing I would like to add. 

The Christians on the forum are not disagreeing with Rabbi Yosef for the sake of being anti-Semitic.  As I see it, they are simply bewildered at seeing Jews accept the suicidal ruling of these rabbis. 

[jdl4ever]

It appears to me that Denomitator is being brainwashed by the Yeshiva he's going to.   If you speak to the old Jews over 80 of several generations back, you will discover that these Charedim are trying to change our religion by making up the nonsense he is saying.  I suggest he read the Rambam and Pirkai Avot.  And when he's finished, pick up a Tanach and try to find me anywhere where it says the Jews didn't fight the enemy but were learning instead.  Lol.  He thinks it's OK for learners to support Shas because they are giving them money even though the party is a disgraceful sell out. This is why the Rambam said that learners who don't work and support themselves off charity are disgracing the name of G-d and will go to hell. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa, thanks for sticking up for me.

Everybody, I did not think I said anything insulting at all about ROY. I know I did in the past, but Chaim asked me to stop and I did. In this thread, I repeated his view that giving up Jewish land is worth "saving lives". I am not an expert about him by any means, besides what Chaim has pointed out, but I construed his words to mean Arab lives. If he indeed does mean that, he is flat-out wrong in every way.

That aside, it appears to be fairly well-known that he has received generous compensation from various Israeli governments for his promotion of Oslo and other surrender agreements among the Sephardim. That, in my opinion, is far worse than just having leftist beliefs. That speaks to his entire character, not just his Torahic/Talmudic accuracy.

So, those are my opinions of him. Chaim has said that the vast majority of high Torah scholarly rabbis in Israel disagree with him. Either they are all wrong and he is right or the opposite is true. Chaim has said that if all Torah rabbis on Israel decide on something that he will obey them and accept their ruling under all circumstances, but that is not the case with Ovadia Yosef. He is in the minority.

Yacov, if Mitfleziet is Nonny, I think we should ignore all of his or her posts and threads from here on out. He or she has obviously succeeded in stirring up trouble here once more.

[TheCoon]

jdl4ever is correct when he says learning Torah at the expense of work, military service, etc is a haredi belief. It unfortunately is seeping into other streams of Judaism with sad results.

[Mifletzet]

Chaim said not to insult Ovadiah Yosef.

Where did Chaim say this?

In 2001 on this audio clip http://www.bestsharing.com/files/gqfWPc265042/shas.wav.html
Chaim calls Rabbi Ovadia Yosef as "Ovadia Kessef", "a degenerate", "completely and utterly insane", "senile", "a moron" etc etc.

Has Chaim recanted since then?!

If Shimon Peres becomes president thanks to Ovadia Yosef, he will go down with Shevna, Yerovam, Korach, Doeg, Achitofel and the other "Halachic greats", who nevertheless lost their Olam Haba for going so mightily against Hashem's ratzon!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Revava locked this topic on their forum.

Good idea, you should do the same.