Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[muman613]

Im sure this UN-human piece of drek has never read the Bible nor does he care. I doubt anyone in the UN is righteous..
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[Yaakov Mendel]

I think this initiative is awkward because the hysterical anti-Israel members of the UN do not care about the Bible anyway so this kind of argument will not affect them.

Moreover, I think the logic of that argument is flawed inasmuch as a contentious claim, such as "the land of Israel belongs to the Jews", should not be based on a belief that is not shared by everyone, such as : "there is a Creator of the world and all that the Torah says is His word and thus it is absolutely true".
I do think that Jewish claims on a Jewish state including at least Judea and Samaria and Gaza are legitimate, but on different grounds.

Besides, I reject quoting the Quran as a source of legitimacy for Jewish claims on the land of Israel. The Quran is an evil and fraudulent text that is simply null and void. I am also against citing the Balfour declaration and the San Remo declaration because what is the legitimacy of opinions expressed by colonial rulers of the 1920s ?

[mord]

The U.N. should move to Zimbabwe,Tehran or the Sudan

[Yaakov Mendel]

The United Nazis constantly make decisions based on beliefs that are not held by everyone, especially righteous people.  It would be refreshing to see a Kahanist government challenge them to believe the Bible instead of terrorist propaganda for a change. 

Who cares about what the UN says anyway ? We are all very well aware that the UN has been fanatically hostile to Israel since its creation. Who in their right mind would expect a turnaround from the UN, given its current composition and structure ?

Jews shouldn't be embarrassed about the true reason the Land belongs to them, so I'm glad Yesha is mentioning this.

I didn't mean that Jews should feel embarrassed by what the Torah says. What I meant was that you can't expect to win over non-religious people with religious arguments. They will tell you that Jews are entitled to have their own beliefs about their destiny but that they can't force these beliefs onto the others.
There are many sound arguments based on history and on a universal notion of justice that provide zionism with a solid foundation in a way that can be accepted by fair and honest people who do not necessarily understand the Torah and are not prepared to embrace it for various reasons (cultural differences, secular education, etc.).

[muman613]

Who cares about what the UN says anyway ? We are all very well aware that the UN has been fanatically hostile to Israel since its creation. Who in their right mind would expect a turnaround from the UN, given its current composition and structure ?

I didn't mean that Jews should feel embarrassed by what the Torah says. What I meant was that you can't expect to win over non-religious people with religious arguments. They will tell you that Jews are entitled to have their own beliefs about their destiny but that they can't force these beliefs onto the others.
There are many sound arguments based on history and on a universal notion of justice that provide zionism with a solid foundation in a way that can be accepted by fair and honest people who do not necessarily understand the Torah and are not prepared to embrace it for various reasons (cultural differences, secular education, etc.).

I vehemently disagree... Without the Torah there is no need for Jews to live in Israel. The Torah expressly commands the Jews to inhabit the land. But if we did not receive the Torah then we could live anywhere we want. Why should Jews not live on a deserted island in the middle of the pacific ocean? Why not in Uganda as the UN was considering?

Ther Torah is the ONLY reason Jews should be in Israel. And whether the rest of the world believes it or not is not material. All Jews need to be made aware of the importance of the land of Israel to the Jewish people.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I vehemently disagree... Without the Torah there is no need for Jews to live in Israel. The Torah expressly commands the Jews to inhabit the land. But if we did not receive the Torah then we could live anywhere we want. Why should Jews not live on a deserted island in the middle of the pacific ocean? Why not in Uganda as the UN was considering?

Ther Torah is the ONLY reason Jews should be in Israel. And whether the rest of the world believes it or not is not material. All Jews need to be made aware of the importance of the land of Israel to the Jewish people.

This is a big subject and I don't have much time right now. Very roughly, here is a sketch of the argument :

1) Jews should have their own state, to avoid being persecuted again by non-Jews. The Jews deserve an independent state of their own where they can be free and safe more than any other people on earth given all that they have suffered in the exile and all the contributions and achievements that they have brought to humanity.

2) Why in Israel and not in Uganda ?
Because the Jews are a nation and the Land of Israel is their historical homeland (not Uganda). The Jews have maintained a continuous presence in Eretz Israel for thousands of years, even after they were massacred and expelled by the Romans, then by the Muslims.
Because of Judaism (of course !).

3) Why Jews in the land of Israel instead of the Arabs who call themselves "Palestinian" ?
There is no Palestinian people, most of the so-called « Palestinians » are Arabs from surrounding countries who immigrated after the Jews. It was the Jews who turned the desert into a garden and resettled and rebuilt the Land of Israel and made it what it is today. The Arabs have lost whatever claim they may have had to the land by repeatedly refusing to share it and responding to the peace offers of the Jews by wars of aggression and terror. 


Obviously, we could elaborate a lot on each point (but I have to go and get some sleep now !). As you can see, I do not ignore judaism - this would be absurd... Still, I don't think the Torah is the only possible foundation for zionism as you claim - although it is my personal belief that it is certainly the deepest and most fundamental foundation of all. At a higher level of understanding and conscience, there is no contradiction between secular and religious zionism : the Torah prescribes the unique history of the Jewish people which, in turn, brings about the rebirth of Eretz Israel and, ultimately, the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Torah.