Author Topic: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies  (Read 3828 times)

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Offline Rubystars

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http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

These babies apparently died a long time ago and there hasn't been a need to create new cell lines from more aborted babies since then but I still find this fact disturbing.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 02:25:31 PM »
yeh..doesn't sound very ethical.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »
They did not abort a fetus in order to get cells!   

Someone else got an abortion of their own volition like many thousands of people do each year (or perhaps it was a miscarriage - they do not specify.   Please note that not every abortion is induced, many are also spontaneous and involuntary).  Then doctors harvested cells from the fetus, instead of letting it all be thrown in the trash, and saved countless lives.   One man's trash is another man's treasure.      It's the American dream ... or something like that.

Offline Aces High

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2011, 08:33:59 PM »
I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.  And I know that is a big sticking point here.  And a lot of religious people will disagree.   But Israel's survival  over rides this stiicking point with me, so I just set this abortion point aside the best I can, and support the Kahanists for other reasons.

Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2011, 09:39:26 PM »
I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.  And I know that is a big sticking point here.  And a lot of religious people will disagree.   But Israel's survival  over rides this stiicking point with me, so I just set this abortion point aside the best I can, and support the Kahanists for other reasons.

You think murder is a choice? I guess Casey Anthoney just had a late abortion...

And Israel will not survive if it doesn't follow the will of Hashem. In the end abortion will lead to national destruction...

I also support a womans right to choose. She has a right to choose to use birth control or not have intimate relations which will result in pregnancy. I mean we are sophisticated enough to know how a woman gets pregnant, aren't we? Why do you have to engage in murder just to have a good time?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline BritishSword

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2011, 10:10:41 PM »
You think murder is a choice? I guess Casey Anthoney just had a late abortion...

And Israel will not survive if it doesn't follow the will of Hashem. In the end abortion will lead to national destruction...

I also support a womans right to choose. She has a right to choose to use birth control or not have intimate relations which will result in pregnancy. I mean we are sophisticated enough to know how a woman gets pregnant, aren't we? Why do you have to engage in murder just to have a good time?


Well I know some people who do engage in murder to have a good time ;D
  But anyway your right, Jews certainly mustn't abort. There are too few of them as it is. Jews need to get busy, in various ways.

Oh yeah, cells from dead babies, bit creepy.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2011, 10:21:00 PM »
I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.  And I know that is a big sticking point here.  And a lot of religious people will disagree.   But Israel's survival  over rides this stiicking point with me, so I just set this abortion point aside the best I can, and support the Kahanists for other reasons.

How can Israel survive if Jews don't start to outbreed the Arabs in our midst?   All the abortions are literally killing off our people like Hitler did when he murdered our babies.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2011, 10:21:35 PM »
You think murder is a choice?

He didn't say murder, actually.  He said abortion.

I find it odd you equate the two when the Torah DOES NOT.

Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 12:24:55 AM »
He didn't say murder, actually.  He said abortion.

I find it odd you equate the two when the Torah DOES NOT.

The Torah allows abortion only in cases of a threat to the mothers life. The Torah is pro-life, if you have not noticed. This is why the Torah says that saving life is more important than doing Mitzvahs. Im sure you know this.

I say murder because todays generation has no respect for life. They consider it 'choice' to terminate a life. And I know what the Torah says concerning when life begins. I have read and learned a lot concerning this question.

The concept of the value of life is so very important for Jews and for righteous gentiles that this is why the command to not murder (#6) is the couple for the first statement of the Aseret HaDibrot which is "I am Hashem". So while there is a technical difference, and you are correct that the Torah does not consider abortion equal to murder, in todays world I see a very close relationship between casual abortions and murder. And as I pointed to the Casey Anthony case for an example, she would rather party and indulge in physical pleasure while her little girl was suffocating in the trunk of her car. While talking with friends the other day we remarked how this should be considered a 'very late term abortion'.



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2917/jewish/The-First-Commandment.htm

Quote
The Midrash explains the correlations of each of these five sets, but for starters, we'll look at the connection between Commandments #1 and #6. Why is "Do not kill" the flip side of "I am the L‑rd your G‑d"? Because, say the Sages, to murder a fellow man is to murder G‑d:

    What is this analogous to? To a king of flesh and blood who entered a country and put up portraits of himself, and made statues of himself, and minted coins with his image. After a while, the people of the country overturned his portraits, broke his statues and invalidated his coins, thereby reducing the image of the king. So, too, one who sheds blood reduces the image of the King, as it is written (Genesis 9:6): "One who spills a man's blood... for in the image of G‑d He made man."

Now there are murderers who say they believe in G‑d. And there are people who are dead-set against murder who claim not to believe in a higher power. They're both wrong.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 08:37:20 PM »
The Torah allows abortion only in cases of a threat to the mothers life.  etc etc 

Yeah, I'm aware of the facts, but are you?   The fact is, Torah does not equate abortion with a capital crime, whereas murder is.   When a man bumps a pregnant woman and negligently kills her fetus, he is liable to monetary damages (a civil crime), NOT the death penalty, because the fetus is not yet a life before it's born.

Quote
The Torah is pro-life, if you have not noticed. This is why the Torah says that saving life is more important than doing Mitzvahs. Im sure you know this. 
  Yes.

Quote
I say murder because todays generation has no respect for life. They consider it 'choice' to terminate a life. And I know what the Torah says concerning when life begins. I have read and learned a lot concerning this question. 

Today's generations certainly may be quite foolhardy and immoral, but nonetheless, choosing to have an abortion is not terminating "life" because the fetus is not yet a life.   Even though it is wrong to do so.


Offline Rubystars

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 07:33:56 AM »
They did not abort a fetus in order to get cells!   

Someone else got an abortion of their own volition like many thousands of people do each year (or perhaps it was a miscarriage - they do not specify.   Please note that not every abortion is induced, many are also spontaneous and involuntary).  Then doctors harvested cells from the fetus, instead of letting it all be thrown in the trash, and saved countless lives.   One man's trash is another man's treasure.      It's the American dream ... or something like that.

Yes all this is in the article. The point was that it did come from babies that were aborted originally. They weren't aborted for the purpose of producing these cell lines though.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 07:37:23 AM »
I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.  And I know that is a big sticking point here.

Murder does tend to rub people the wrong way.

Quote
And a lot of religious people will disagree. 

Anyone with any sense of morals should agree that a baby shouldn't be killed.

Quote
But Israel's survival  over rides this stiicking point with me, so I just set this abortion point aside the best I can, and support the Kahanists for other reasons.


I think one reason among others that Israel has the trouble it's been having with its enemies is that it allows people in Israel to get abortions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Israel#Circumstances_under_which_abortion_is_legal

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 07:38:43 AM »
I also support a womans right to choose. She has a right to choose to use birth control or not have intimate relations which will result in pregnancy. I mean we are sophisticated enough to know how a woman gets pregnant, aren't we? Why do you have to engage in murder just to have a good time?


Very well said Muman


Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 11:14:45 AM »
There should be no individual right to abortion. It must be banned as a general rule and should be exceptionally allowed only in three cases :
1) rape
2) clearly identified risk of serious physical or mental defect
3) the woman's life in danger

This is a very liberal view - all three exceptions are debatable. Exception 1 is questionable : it's not the child's fault if he/she was conceived as a result of a rape and why should he/she bear the consequences ? Exception 2 is also questionable as some form of eugenism. Any human interference is extremely problematic, actually.

As for having children and raising them the best way you can, it is a fundamental responsibility and moral obligation for everyone. Deciding you won't have children because you don't want to is something extremely selfish, irresponsible and disrespectful of G-d.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:38:55 AM by Yaakov Mendel »

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 02:06:23 PM »
I am pro choice for early term abortions. I don't think it is possible to violate the human rights of something that resembles a tadpole.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 02:28:42 PM »
I am pro choice for early term abortions. I don't think it is possible to violate the human rights of something that resembles a tadpole.

Your comment reflects contempt for human life. You were once that "tadpole" and now look what you have become.
It should not be any individual's prerogative to decide who should live and who should not. Life is a gift, a blessing.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2011, 03:17:26 PM »
Your comment reflects contempt for human life. You were once that "tadpole" and now look what you have become.
It should not be any individual's prerogative to decide who should live and who should not. Life is a gift, a blessing.
So what if I had been aborted when I was still a "tadpole", I wouldn't mind, since I would have no mind. I don't have contempt to human life nor to potential human life. And I don't think life is a gift nor a blessing. To live is to suffer. It's better to have never been alive than to live, suffer, and die.

Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 03:36:57 PM »
So what if I had been aborted when I was still a "tadpole", I wouldn't mind, since I would have no mind. I don't have contempt to human life nor to potential human life. And I don't think life is a gift nor a blessing. To live is to suffer. It's better to have never been alive than to live, suffer, and die.

That is a very, very un-Jewish sentiment. Judaism loves life and this is why we are different than the muslim animals... Suffering is a part of life and it is not bad, it is a part of the plan to purify our souls.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 08:12:08 PM »
There should be no individual right to abortion. It must be banned as a general rule and should be exceptionally allowed only in three cases :
1) rape
2) clearly identified risk of serious physical or mental defect
3) the woman's life in danger

1 it's not the baby's fault the father did something horrible, they are their own person and they shouldn't be murdered for someone else's sin.

2 Disabled people are people too just the same as anyone else. You think that someone with a physical disability doesn't have the same right to live as someone else, or that someone with a mental disability is somehow less of a person? That's very, very bad thinking.


3. This is the one I agree with you on

Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 08:43:08 PM »
This article from aish.com discusses the relevant issues from the Jewish perspective:

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html

Abortion in Jewish Law
by Daniel Eisenberg, M.D.

The traditional Jewish view does not fit conveniently into the major "camps" in the current debate.

As abortion resurfaces as a political issue in the upcoming U.S. presidential election, it is worthwhile to investigate the Jewish approach to the issue. The traditional Jewish view of abortion does not fit conveniently into any of the major "camps" in the current American abortion debate. We neither ban abortion completely, nor do we allow indiscriminate abortion "on demand."

A woman may feel that until the fetus is born, it is a part of her body, and therefore she retains the right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. Does Judaism recognize a right to "choose" abortion? In what situations does Jewish law sanction abortion?

To gain a clear understanding of when abortion is permitted (or even required) and when it is forbidden requires an appreciation of certain nuances of halacha (Jewish law) which govern the status of the fetus.1

The easiest way to conceptualize a fetus in halacha is to imagine it as a full-fledged human being -- but not quite.2 In most circumstances, the fetus is treated like any other "person." Generally, one may not deliberately harm a fetus. But while it would seem obvious that Judaism holds accountable one who purposefully causes a woman to miscarry, sanctions are even placed upon one who strikes a pregnant woman causing an unintentional miscarriage.3 That is not to say that all rabbinical authorities consider abortion to be murder. The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime4 and by others as merely indicating that one is not executed for performing an abortion, even though it is a type of murder.5 There is even disagreement regarding whether the prohibition of abortion is Biblical or Rabbinic. Nevertheless, it is universally agreed that the fetus will become a full-fledged human being and there must be a very compelling reason to allow for abortion.

As a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth. In such a circumstance, the baby is considered tantamount to a rodef, a pursuer6 after the mother with the intent to kill her. Nevertheless, as explained in the Mishna,7 if it would be possible to save the mother by maiming the fetus, such as by amputating a limb, abortion would be forbidden. Despite the classification of the fetus as a pursuer, once the baby's head or most of its body has been delivered, the baby's life is considered equal to the mother's, and we may not choose one life over another, because it is considered as though they are both pursuing each other.

It is important to point out that the reason that the life of the fetus is subordinate to the mother is because the fetus is the cause of the mother's life-threatening condition, whether directly (e.g. due to toxemia, placenta previa, or breach position) or indirectly (e.g. exacerbation of underlying diabetes, kidney disease, or hypertension).8 A fetus may not be aborted to save the life of any other person whose life is not directly threatened by the fetus, such as use of fetal organs for transplant.

Judaism recognizes psychiatric as well as physical factors in evaluating the potential threat that the fetus poses to the mother. However, the danger posed by the fetus (whether physical or emotional) must be both probable and substantial to justify abortion.9 The degree of mental illness that must be present to justify termination of a pregnancy has been widely debated by rabbinic scholars,10 without a clear consensus of opinion regarding the exact criteria for permitting abortion in such instances.11 Nevertheless, all agree that were a pregnancy to causes a woman to become truly suicidal, there would be grounds for abortion.12 However, several modern rabbinical experts ruled that since pregnancy-induced and post-partum depressions are treatable, abortion is not warranted.13

As a rule, Jewish law does not assign relative values to different lives. Therefore, almost most major poskim (Rabbis qualified to decide matters of Jewish law) forbid abortion in cases of abnormalities or deformities found in a fetus. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, one the greatest poskim of the past century, rules that even amniocentesis is forbidden if it is performed only to evaluate for birth defects for which the parents might request an abortion. Nevertheless, a test may be performed if a permitted action may result, such as performance of amniocentesis or drawing alpha-fetoprotein levels for improved peripartum or postpartum medical management.

While most poskim forbid abortion for "defective" fetuses, Rabbi Eliezar Yehuda Waldenberg is a notable exception. Rabbi Waldenberg allows first trimester abortion of a fetus that would be born with a deformity that would cause it to suffer, and termination of a fetus with a lethal fetal defect such as Tay Sachs up to the seventh month of gestation.14 The rabbinic experts also discuss the permissibility of abortion for mothers with German measles and babies with prenatal confirmed Down syndrome.

There is a difference of opinion regarding abortion for adultery or in other cases of impregnation from a relationship with someone Biblically forbidden. In cases of rape and incest, a key issue would be the emotional toll exacted from the mother in carrying the fetus to term. In cases of rape, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Aurbach allows the woman to use methods which prevent pregnancy after intercourse.15 The same analysis used in other cases of emotional harm might be applied here. Cases of adultery interject additional considerations into the debate, with rulings ranging from prohibition to it being a mitzvah to abort.16

I have attempted to distill the essence of the traditional Jewish approach to abortion. Nevertheless, every woman's case is unique and special, and the parameters determining the permissibility of abortion within halacha are subtle and complex. It is crucial to remember that when faced with an actual patient, a competent halachic authority must be consulted in every case.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2011, 02:57:04 AM »
1 it's not the baby's fault the father did something horrible, they are their own person and they shouldn't be murdered for someone else's sin.

2 Disabled people are people too just the same as anyone else. You think that someone with a physical disability doesn't have the same right to live as someone else, or that someone with a mental disability is somehow less of a person? That's very, very bad thinking.


3. This is the one I agree with you on

You must have missed part of my post because I say in it that exceptions 1 and 2 are objectionable on basically the same grounds as you.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2011, 03:35:41 AM »
1 it's not the baby's fault the father did something horrible, they are their own person and they shouldn't be murdered for someone else's sin.

2 Disabled people are people too just the same as anyone else. You think that someone with a physical disability doesn't have the same right to live as someone else, or that someone with a mental disability is somehow less of a person? That's very, very bad thinking.


3. This is the one I agree with you on

Also, there is a misunderstanding on your part as far as the rationale for exception 2 is concerned. I never meant that someone with a disability doesn't have the same right to live as someone else or is less of a person. Of course this would be very bad thinking and, frankly, I am a little annoyed that you thought I held such a view. I criticized the possible eugenism associated with this so you should have understood that I meant something different. The reason why I think abortion could be exceptionally allowed when it is known that the child will be affected by a serious disability is because I want to avoid too much suffering for that child. Do you know the pain caused by certain disabilities ? Do you really want to inflict that pain when it can be avoided ? You are not the one who will endure that pain. And you are not the one who will live with the terrible burden of being a parent who watches his/her child suffer endlessly. Think about it.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2011, 05:10:32 AM »
And I don't think life is a gift nor a blessing. To live is to suffer. It's better to have never been alive than to live, suffer, and die.

Zelhar, I am sorry for you if that's the way you feel. Your vision of life looks very pessimistic and nihilistic. I am not blaming you or condemning you. I just hope you are not so depressed as to really think that "It's better to have never been alive than to live" because I appreciate your posts and what they reflect about your personality.


Offline Rubystars

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2011, 09:55:15 AM »
Also, there is a misunderstanding on your part as far as the rationale for exception 2 is concerned. I never meant that someone with a disability doesn't have the same right to live as someone else or is less of a person. Of course this would be very bad thinking and, frankly, I am a little annoyed that you thought I held such a view. I criticized the possible eugenism associated with this so you should have understood that I meant something different. The reason why I think abortion could be exceptionally allowed when it is known that the child will be affected by a serious disability is because I want to avoid too much suffering for that child. Do you know the pain caused by certain disabilities ? Do you really want to inflict that pain when it can be avoided ? You are not the one who will endure that pain. And you are not the one who will live with the terrible burden of being a parent who watches his/her child suffer endlessly. Think about it.

Sorry I misunderstood what you said.  There are a lot of people who do hold those views but I'm very glad that you don't! Sometimes it's easy to misread things online. I've been misunderstood a lot here and in other places so I hope you won't stay mad at me.

There's a slippery slope when it comes to what you're talking about.  What disabilities would you consider to cause too much suffering? I know there are some that are extremely difficult and/or painful for the person and/or family but I'd like to know what you would consider a case where you feel someone would be better off dead. Anybody can become disabled at any time so to say "well YOU don't have to go through it", we don't know that for sure. I hope I won't be disabled but this is something that could happen to anybody at any stage of life.

A lot of people will abort a baby just because they find out that the baby will have short stature or because the baby might have Down syndrome. I think both of these cases are completely unacceptable and those babies should be alive. There are some disabilities that really are difficult to live with but at least if someone is alive that's worth something and there can always be medical advances to make their life easier later if they are able to live.

A lot of the late term abortions were done on babies that had hydrocephalus. Instead of using a C-section to deliver a live baby, the baby was murdered and his or her skull collapsed rather than saving the baby and trying to drain off the fluid and save them.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2011, 11:16:25 AM »
Sorry I misunderstood what you said.  There are a lot of people who do hold those views but I'm very glad that you don't! Sometimes it's easy to misread things online. I've been misunderstood a lot here and in other places so I hope you won't stay mad at me.

There's a slippery slope when it comes to what you're talking about.  What disabilities would you consider to cause too much suffering? I know there are some that are extremely difficult and/or painful for the person and/or family but I'd like to know what you would consider a case where you feel someone would be better off dead. Anybody can become disabled at any time so to say "well YOU don't have to go through it", we don't know that for sure. I hope I won't be disabled but this is something that could happen to anybody at any stage of life.

A lot of people will abort a baby just because they find out that the baby will have short stature or because the baby might have Down syndrome. I think both of these cases are completely unacceptable and those babies should be alive. There are some disabilities that really are difficult to live with but at least if someone is alive that's worth something and there can always be medical advances to make their life easier later if they are able to live.

A lot of the late term abortions were done on babies that had hydrocephalus. Instead of using a C-section to deliver a live baby, the baby was murdered and his or her skull collapsed rather than saving the baby and trying to drain off the fluid and save them.

No problem Rubystars. There was a misunderstanding mostly because of me, because I was too terse and I didn't explain myself clearly. I am glad you now know that my position on this important issue is very close to yours.
I was thinking about things like congenital myopathies or inborn defects in the immune system such as primary immunodeficiency. That is, diseases that are inevitable, painful and with no known cure. I also find certain forms of intellectual disabilities very cruel, especially those that will prevent the child from socializing and that will cause enormous emotional distress.
But I completely agree that it's a slippery slope. Like you, I consider short stature, for example, as a totally unacceptable motive. I am essentially very anti-abortion.