Author Topic: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies  (Read 4024 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2011, 12:59:50 PM »
For those who are criticizing Zelhar:   Don't the chachamim say that it is better to never have been born than to live and sin and get punished for it (and thus suffer, in this world and/or the next)?

I'm pretty sure that was a point of contention amongst the chachamim and the Talmud actually comes out on the side of the opinion above.  It would seem both points of view are valid.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2011, 01:29:42 PM »
There should be no individual right to abortion. It must be banned as a general rule and should be exceptionally allowed only in three cases :
1) rape
2) clearly identified risk of serious physical or mental defect
3) the woman's life in danger

This is a very liberal view - all three exceptions are debatable. Exception 1 is questionable : it's not the child's fault if he/she was conceived as a result of a rape and why should he/she bear the consequences ? Exception 2 is also questionable as some form of eugenism. Any human interference is extremely problematic, actually.

As for having children and raising them the best way you can, it is a fundamental responsibility and moral obligation for everyone. Deciding you won't have children because you don't want to is something extremely selfish, irresponsible and disrespectful of G-d.


#3 is definitely allowable according to the Torah.. The other two, according to the Rabbis is not allowed.

Some question when life actually begins.  Once there is fertilization, the cells multiply very rapidly.

Plan B is a medication taken to prevent fertilization.  Therefore, it is not a morning after pill.  For those who have been raped, they should go on this immediately, in my opinion, unless they want to have a child through that rape.

As far as a birth defect, from a non religious point of view, it is a difficult decision to make.  But from a religious point of view, cut and dry, it's a no no to abort that fetus.  I guess it depends on how much faith one has in Gd to accept that He gives that type of child to someone in that condition when it is born.  It is still an innocent child and the idea that "he will suffer throughout his life" is not an acceptable excuse to terminate a pregnancy.  If that was ok, then so would euthenasia of old people...and we know that is wrong...and if that's wrong, so is ending a pregnancy of a child with a birth defect.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2011, 02:30:21 PM »
For those who are criticizing Zelhar:   Don't the chachamim say that it is better to never have been born than to live and sin and get punished for it (and thus suffer, in this world and/or the next)?

I'm pretty sure that was a point of contention amongst the chachamim and the Talmud actually comes out on the side of the opinion above.  It would seem both points of view are valid.

I knew someone would bring this up. It is true what you said that there is an argument concerning this question. I believe this comes from the Pirkie Avot {Ethics of the Fathers}...

I found this which explains some of this issue:



http://www.aish.com/sp/pg/48937002.html?mobile=yes&c=y

To Never have Been Born: Ethics of the Fathers, 3:17
Taking the odds on eternal life.
by Rabbi Yonason Goldson


Rabbi Akiva used to say: Beloved is man, for he was created in the image of God. It indicates a greater love that it was made known to him that he was created in the image of God, as it is said, "For in the image of God did He make man" (Genesis 9:6). Beloved are the Children of Israel for they are called children of the Lord. It is indicative of a greater love that it was made known to them that they are called children of the Lord, as it is said, "You are children to the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 14:1). Beloved is Israel that they were given a precious utensil (the Torah). It is a greater love that it was made known to them that they were given a precious utensil, as it is said, "For I have given you a good possession; do not forsake My Torah" (Proverbs 4:2). Ethics of the Fathers, 3:18

The Talmud records an astonishing debate between the students of Shammai and the students of Hillel. The scholars of the Talmudic academy of Shammai (Beis Shammai) asserted that man would have been better off had he never been born. Beis Hillel argued, insisting that man was better off for having been born.

Although the Talmud records literally hundreds of arguments between the scholars of the two academies, this particular dispute ended in an unusual resolution. After two-and-a-half years, Beis Hillel conceded the debate and accepted Beis Shammai's position that man would indeed have been better off had he never been born.

It is patently impossible to accept either Beis Shammai's opinion or Beis Hillel's agreement at face value. As Rabbi Akiva teaches in our mishna, there is no greater testimony than human existence to the Almighty's love for mankind. Indeed, by definition, anything God does is ultimately what is best for man. If so, what could the students of the two academies have meant?

THE FLIP OF A COIN

It's hard to imagine anyone making it through high school without hearing the following question: If a coin-toss yields ten consecutive results of "heads," what are the odds the next toss will also be heads?

The most common response among the uninitiated is one chance in ten. A more sophisticated wrong answer would compute the odds of eleven consecutive coin-tosses landing heads-up at one chance in 211, or 2048. By high school, however, most of us know that, regardless of prior results, the odds on any given toss are even money (assuming a fair coin).

These two ways of looking at the same case, either as an isolated event or as part of a sequence, provide a possible insight into the opinion of Beis Shammai. If the odds of a single event can be correctly computed as simultaneously 50% and 0.05%, perhaps Beis Shammai's opinion is not inconsistent with Rabbi Akiva's teaching after all.

ALL OR NOTHING

Imagine that you possessed a diamond of inestimable value. Would you wager such a treasure on the toss of a coin for the chance of gaining an even more valuable jewel? Or would you consider it foolhardy to risk all you have for the chance to double or triple wealth already beyond measure?

This illustrates the reasoning of Beis Shammai, who understood that the Almighty placed man in this world to give him the opportunity to earn his reward in the World to Come. Rather than simply bestowing upon mankind the infinite pleasure of eternal life, God devised the means by which man could earn paradise, so that his eternal reward would not be tarnished by the shame of being undeserved.

However, Beis Shammai reckoned that even an imperfect paradise would offer such unimaginable pleasure that to risk losing it all for possibility of gaining more was a fool's wager. True, man could acquire a better portion of in the World to Come. But the chances of losing everything were too high to justify such a gamble. Better off to have never been born into the world of physical existence; better to retain a sure thing, albeit imperfect, than to risk more and end up with nothing.

The students of Hillel, however, looked at the matter differently. True, the fate of a single individual might be compared to the flip of a single coin. However, in His omniscience and omnibenevolence the Almighty would never have instituted a system designed to benefit mankind if mankind as a whole would not ultimately benefit. In the grand scheme of things, God knew that the gamble was worthwhile, that the result depended not on the toss of a fair coin but of a coin weighted, over the long run, in man's favor. Over the span of human history, the majority of mankind would earn a better portion and only a minority would lose.

THE WEIGHTED COIN

So why did the students of Beis Hillel eventually come around to Beis Shammai's way of thinking? And how could either, no matter how compelling the logic of the argument, have ever suggested that God's plan was not in mankind's best interest?

In any matter of perspective, an awareness of risk is essential to success. However great the profit one stands to gain may be, a single careless act can cause the loss not only of potential profit but of all one has invested. And so Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel eventually agreed concerning the necessity of maintaining constant focus on the consequences of miscalculation. To earn eternal reward takes a lifetime. To lose it requires only a moment.

In contrast, Rabbi Akiva chose to emphasize on the positive. Where Beis Shammai, and ultimately Beis Hillel, chose to focus on the consequences of transgression to guide us along the straight path, Rabbi Akiva pointed to the Almighty's creation of mankind as the unparalleled expression of unconditional love. Moreover, God did not merely create man in the way he created all living things, but fashioned man in His own image, combining within man's physical exterior a uniquely spiritual and Godlike soul. And even more, God conveyed to mankind the knowledge of its own uniqueness, so that we might appreciate our own special destiny and know that, by entering into the conflict between the physical and the spiritual, we can prevail.

But still that is not all. The Almighty provided mankind not only with a spiritual nature and an awareness of that nature, but with an indispensable tool with which to succeed in his spiritual mission. God revealed to mankind His Will.

For all the peoples of the earth, the Divine Will takes the form of the Seven Noahide Laws, the basic prescription for human morality that includes prohibitions against murder, theft, idolatry, sexual immorality, taking God's name in vain, and cruelty to animals, as well as the establishment of a justice system to enforce them.

For the Jewish people, however, the Divine Will is expressed in the form of the Torah, the 248 positive commandments and 365 prohibitions that guide the Jew in the daily quest of elevating his physical nature to a level of spirituality.

There is no greater indication of God's love than the Torah He provided us to assure our victory in the battle of the soul. No matter how great the odds against us may seem, the Torah weights every toss of the coin in our favor. With the Torah to guide us, and with sincere effort, Rabbi Akiva assures us that we cannot fail.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2011, 02:35:14 PM »
Also here is some more about this topic {concerning whether it is better to not be born}:



http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/beacons-on-the-talmud-sea/01.htm

To Be, Or Not To Be
Similar concepts apply with regard to the purpose of the creation of man. Our Sages state:[47]

For two and a half years, there was a difference of opinion between the School of Shammai and the School of Hillel. These (the School of Shammai)[48] would say: "It is better for a person not to have been born than to have been born." And these (the School of Hillel) would say: "It is better for a person to have been born than not to have been born."

The School of Shammai, who highlights the potential, says that it is better for a person not to have been born, because the potential for personal fulfillment already exists in the spiritual realms. A person's existence in this world is - at its best - merely an expression of his spiritual potential. This is essential to fulfill G-d's purpose in creation, but "for a person," i.e., from his own individual standpoint, it is preferable that he not have been created.

The School of Hillel, who focuses on actual expression, maintains that it is through the descent into this world that a soul reaches the heights of fulfillment. For the observance of the Torah and its mitzvos on this material plane lifts a person to a level above its previous rung in the spiritual realms. Therefore, it is preferable for the person to have been born.

This leads to a further point. Since the School of Shammai puts the emphasis on G-d's desire, and not man's, man's Divine service is characterized by self-nullification, the negation of his own will. As such, it is "better for a person not to have been born."

The School of Hillel, by contrast, sees man's fulfillment as a personal goal. G-d's intent in creation, the establishment of a dwelling in this material world, is not merely an objective to which we should strive, but one which should be internalized within our own selves. And as this motive blossoms into fulfillment, every person can perceive its benefits; his existence is thus "better for him."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2011, 05:41:43 PM »
I am pro choice for early term abortions. I don't think it is possible to violate the human rights of something that resembles a tadpole.

I used to think this...but once you are married (if you aren't already) and have a wife (if you don't have one already) and she's pregnant (if you haven't experienced that), and hear that heart beat as it is a tadpole, you will think the opposite.


Tadpole or not, it's living and it's beautiful. I'm against terminating that unless of course, the mother's life is in danger.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2011, 05:44:06 PM »
I disagree that it is better to have never been born so that one couldn't sin.

It is better to have been born to exercise free will to do what's righteous and have faith in Gd than to have never been born at all.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2011, 02:28:55 PM »
I used to think this...but once you are married (if you aren't already) and have a wife (if you don't have one already) and she's pregnant (if you haven't experienced that), and hear that heart beat as it is a tadpole, you will think the opposite.


Tadpole or not, it's living and it's beautiful. I'm against terminating that unless of course, the mother's life is in danger.
You are describing a situation of a couple expecting a baby. And it is very good and idyllic. There are however other situations. You know how many unwanted babies there are in the world. The world is so full of disease, sickness, disasters, wars, exploitation, hunger, poverty, negligence, cruelty and what not. So I think if people are going to have babies they better be able and willing to protect them and provide for them.

Also, Jewish halacha don't consider the embryo in the first 40 days phase as a human. It's basically permissible to abort during this phase if you have good enough reasons.

Offline Orde

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2011, 03:04:38 PM »
Quote
Don't the chachamim say that it is better to never have been born than to live and sin and get punished for it
We don't know which of any particular unborn child is headed for punishment or not.  Also, the "better" in that saying describes the person born and not the person who gives life or takes life from that person, and it does not seem logical to apply that statement to supporting abortion. 
In other words, it may be better for a person not to be born and then to have bad stuff happen to them, but that does not mean the person doing something bad against them (like killing them), that it is better for them, that their act is approved of! 
Analogy:  a person suffering great, horrible pain from cancer and has no living relatives or friends, is barely surviving on the street,  is quickly stabbed to death at a convenience store robbery and thus put out of his misery that was dragging on -- just because we can say it was perhaps better for that person to have been stabbed, does not mean that the murderer's act (which more likely is of entirely selfish motives) is therefore approved of.
Now there may be other abortion-supportive arguments by "the chachamim" (I'm not Jewish, so have not idea about that) -- all of which I reject, as I am 100% anti-abortion based on what the Bible says-- but this saying of theirs (which I totally approve of for common sense reasons) imo doesn't logically support it.

Offline Aces High

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Re: Some vaccines are made using cell lines from aborted babies
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2011, 03:06:21 PM »
All of you can criticize abortion all day and night, and on weekends.  It won't make a bit of difference.   People who want them,  will get them.