Gestapo Israeli Police intend on Arresting more Rabbis

[muman613]

This is a disgrace! When will this evil government be replaced? I cannot give any money which will go to Israel {except for JTF money which supports the righteous settlers in Samaria and Judea} because I absolutely hate with a passion the gestapo police who are abusing the Rabbis for their Halachic views.

Danino Talks Tough After Lior Protests
Sivan 27, 5771, 29 June 11 10:05
by Gavriel Queenann

(Israelnationalnews.com) Israel Police commissioner Yochanan Danino tried talking tough Wednesday in the hopes of avoiding protests over the possible arrest of Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, who refused a police summons for questioning pertaining to his endorsing a controversial halakhic discourse.

“The Torah is under investigation, and I have no intention of cooperating in an investigation of a book that is solely about Torah,” Rabbi Yosef told Arutz Sheva's Hebrew-language news service.

Danino said police would not tolerate "further disruptions" and "were not afraid to act,"  if supporters of the rabbis became disruptive or blocked traffic.

Earlier this week police arrested the Chief Rabbi of Kiryat Arba, Dov Lior, for refusing a summons pertaining to an endorsement who wrote for the same discourse - a move that outraged the national religious public and led to angry protests.

The discourse, entitled Torat Hamelekh ("Torah of the King") is a discussion of Jewish laws pertaining to warfare and the torah attitude to killing non-Jews in battle. Rabbinic endorsement's of such discourses generally speak to the halakhic coherence of the work in question and do not necessarily imply agreement by those giving their endorsement.

Police say Torat Hamelekh contains opinions amounting to "incitement to violence" and "racism."

Speaking from a rank-awarding ceremony for new brigadier general police officers Wednesday, Danino said that the law is not discriminatory, and that enforcement does not favor any group in specific.

Rabbi Lior's arrest was criticized not only by religious protesters, national religious MKs, and Lior himself, but also by politicians across the political spectrum. Former Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel described Rabbi Lior's arrest as "unwise."

“Freedom of expression is needed, especially for academics, teachers and rabbis,” he said.

Following Rabbi Yosef's refusal to appear at the  National Serious and International Crimes Unit for questioning his arrest now appears likely, although it remains unknown when police plan to bring him into custody.

Should the arrest take place demonstrations by followers of Rabbi Yosef, a leader in the sephardic hareidi world, are considered a certainty by police. Clashes between members of the national religious community and police erupted on Monday, following the detainment and questioning of Rabbi Lior.

The rabbis are being investigated under suspicion of incitement for their endorsement of the 2009 book by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, the rabbi of Yitzhar, which wrote it is permissable for Jewish soldiers to preemptively kill gentiles, including civilians, under a narrow set of circumstances in wartime.

"This is study-hall discourse,” Yosef's son Yonatan said of Torat Hamelech on Tuesday. “The Torah itself says much more extreme things – like those who desecrate Shabbat must be killed. Does that mean that anyone who reads the weekly portion should be indicted for incitement?"

Government officials were highly critical of the disturbances and riots that broke out following Rabbi Lior's arrest, and specifically of the rabbis' refusal to appear for questioning after being served with summons.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Tuesday issued a statement saying, “Israel is a law-abiding country. The law binds all and all are subject to it.”

“I call on all the country’s citizens to obey the law,” the prime minister said.

Civil rights observers, however, say Israel's incitement laws are written so broadly that they can easily be used by a sitting government  to quash unpopular opinions and dissent.


Isn't it amazing that islamic imams spout unending anti-semitism and racism against Jews and they are not summoned nor arrested... This smacks of antisemitism clear and simple...

[muman613]

Watch this video and learn about Incitement:

[muman613]

[FreedomFighter08]

Israeli "rabbis" need to get with the times. Either way, I don't think that a rabbi should be arrested for writing a book, especially something that can get other ultra religious bat [censored] insane Jews to serve in the military or in the police department.

[muman613]

Israeli "rabbis" need to get with the times. Either way, I don't think that a rabbi should be arrested for writing a book, especially something that can get other ultra religious bat drek insane Jews to serve in the military or in the police department.

I have no idea what you mean "Get with the times"... We are talking about some of the top Rabbis in Israel, the gedolim, who are being abused by the government.

[FreedomFighter08]

Get with the times = get secular.

Abused by the government? Well they're Haredi. What do you expect? Haredi Jews are against social progress and have a Taliban-like mindset. I don't have sympathy for them. I don't support "abusing" them for writing a book but I'm sure we can find other reasons to "abuse" them.

[mord]

Get with the times = get secular.

Abused by the government? Well they're Haredi. What do you expect? Haredi Jews are against social progress and have a Taliban-like mindset. I don't have sympathy for them. I don't support "abusing" them for writing a book but I'm sure we can find other reasons to "abuse" them.

Rabbi Lior and Rabbi Yosef don't discourage people from joining the army.Maybe the Israeli Police could get a bargain by Buying SS  Totenkopf or KGB commissar uniform in bulk

[Yaakov Mendel]

Get with the times = get secular.

Abused by the government? Well they're Haredi. What do you expect? Haredi Jews are against social progress and have a Taliban-like mindset. I don't have sympathy for them. I don't support "abusing" them for writing a book but I'm sure we can find other reasons to "abuse" them.

You should enroll in the Shabak, the Israeli KGB that specializes in entrapping religious Jews who have done nothing wrong. It sounds like you have the perfect mindset for that. You know nothing about Dov Lior but you automatically spit on him because he's a rabbi. You say :  "I'm sure we can find other reasons to "abuse" them.", but wait a minute, to convict someone, you need proof. What kind of freedom are you "FreedomFighter" fighting for ? The freedom of arbitrary detention ?

[muman613]

Yes, I find this FreedomFighter very suspicious... What kind of anti-religious drivel is he spouting here?

I believe these Rabbis are of the Religious Zionist type and I never heard them called Charadie...

Maybe FF was one of  those who enjoyed persecuting Rabbi Kahane?

[muman613]

Rabbi Lov Dior is not a Haradie according to all that is written about him:

The wiki page says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Dov_Lior

Dov Lior (Hebrew: דב ליאור‎, born 1933) is the Chief Rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba in the southern West Bank. He is also the rosh yeshiva Kiryat Arba Hesder Yeshiva[1], and also heads the "Council of Rabbis of Judea and Samaria".

He was born to a Belz hasidic family, son to Moshe Leibland in Breslau, Galicia. He attempted to board the Exodus, eventually arriving on the Negba a few weeks before the establishment of the State of Israel, where he changed his surname to the Hebrew Lior. In Israel he first studied at the Bnei Akiva Kfar HaRoeh high school yeshiva, and then at Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook's Mercaz haRav yeshiva, where owing to Lior's being an orphan, the Rabbi treated him like a son. Lior was married in 1960 (5720) to Bitya, but his wife died of cancer in 1988 (5748); he remarried Esther, widow of Rabbi Ephraim Shahor. Lior has 11 children, 55 grandchildren, and two great-grandchildren. Two of his brothers arrived in Israel after him and joined the Hashomer Hatzair kibbutz HaMa'apil.


I am sick of hearing Lashon Hara about Rabbis...

[muman613]

Rabbi Dov Liors support of the righteous settlers of Judea and Samaria is commendable, it is sad there are people here at JTF who find a need to belittle him...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Dov_Lior

Controversies

Dov Lior has made several controversial statements. He has made speeches legitimizing the killing of non-Jews in war time. This edict is in reference to the Halachic stance of human shields in time of war.

Rabbi Lior is outspoken in his support for Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Following the Mercaz HaRav massacre, Rabbi Lior ruled that Jewish Law forbids employing Arabs or renting homes to them.[2][3]

He recently asserted that Jewish women should never get pregnant using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man, even if it is the last option available. Lior added, a baby born through such an insemination will have the 'negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews' and that 'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring'."[6]

He is currently, with Yaacov Yossef, arrest warrant for expressing his Halachic opinions on some controversial subjects.

[mord]

Well the Israeli NKVD/Leibstandarte SS Secular Division division are up to their old tricks     


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4090145,00.html

[mord]

  look at the common criminal  Israeli  police they look comic                   http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-police-arrest-suspect-in-nahariya-shooting-of-vigilante-police-officer-1.370930    





They need hair club for men    

[Sveta]

I love Israel so much.
One day I read about some teenage settler girls (ages 13-16 or 17) who were arrested by the gestapo police. Held in "administrative detention" in a non-religious environment and without any communication from their parents. You don't do that to kids.
Since then I realized what the government really was and it made me sick. And scared/worried too, scared for the future. Thankfully, the growing religious community brings me hope.

[muman613]

I love Israel so much.
One day I read about some teenage settler girls (ages 13-16 or 17) who were arrested by the gestapo police. Held in "administrative detention" in a non-religious environment and without any communication from their parents. You don't do that to kids.
Since then I realized what the government really was and it made me sick. And scared/worried too, scared for the future. Thankfully, the growing religious community brings me hope.

I know what you are talking about. That was another tragic example of what he Israeli government and their gestapo-like police are doing to the Jewish people in the 'Jewish land'...

[muman613]

Here is the news report from Israel National News from that time:


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125630

Bar Association: Girls Held in Subhuman Conditions
Adar Bet 13, 5768, 20 March 08 08:16
by Ezra HaLevi and Gil Ronen

(Israelnationalnews.com) The Prisons Service Committee of the Israel Bar Association published a scathing report Wednesday on the prison conditions of five minor girls who were arrested at a protest in Jabel Mukaber earlier this week, investigative journalist Yoav Yitzchak's News First Class reports.

The committee members visited the Russian Compound detention center and interviewed the five girls, aged 14 to 17, who refused to identify themselves before the authorities.

"The minor girls were given used military blankets that emit a bad smell, and that is an understatement," the report said. Three of the girls shared a cell with a adult woman who smoked. The cell "was full of cigarette smoke and had no ventilation aperture."

The two other girls said they had not been given bed sheets but "stinky, used, military blankets. They did receive towels," the report went on to say, "but these were dirty and unusable." The report determined that the jailors were denying the girls food and water and insisting that they identify themselves first. Medical service for injuries suffered during the Jabel Mukaber incident were also denied on the same pretext.

Making food, water and medical attention conditional on the girl's agreement to identify themselves "is baseless and constitutes an egregious violation of their rights," the Bar Association committee determined. The conditions of their imprisonment are "harsh, inhuman and illegal," the report stated.

Prisons Service Angry at Bar for Publishing Report

Prisons Service spokesman Lt. Col. Yaron Zamir responded to the report by the Bar Association's Prisons Service Committee by attacking the Bar Association. This was not the first time, he said, that the Bar Association "sent a report to the media before it was sent to the Prisons' Service." When the IPS receives the report it will comment on it, he said.

Zamir noted that "extensive funds have been poured into changing the Jerusalem detention center and improving living conditions there."

MK Zevulun Orlev (NU/NRP) said that "the report shows that the Prisons Service is behaving in an inhumane manner reminiscent of dark regimes," which cannot be allowed to exist in Israel as a law abiding country.

[edu]

Soon there's going to be a rally in Israel protesting the actions of the police against right-wing rabbis.
[I am writing on the 2nd of Tamuz, July 4]. Any suggestions for a good slogan to use at the rally.
Any suggestion for how to best explain this persecution to the USA and in particular jewish-american media.
Often on issues of civil rights, the government is actually concerned about USA opinion more than it is about internal opinion.
Especially phoney right-wing Israeli governments feel free to ignore internal protests, because the leaders make the calculation, that most of the right-wing are captives with no where else to go politically and the few percentage of right wingers that they do lose, they will gain back through new left-wing voters and positive media coverage, from left wing elements in the media.

[Masha]

What exactly does the book say? Can anyone give an example? What is construed as incitement to violence and racial hatred?

[muman613]

What exactly does the book say? Can anyone give an example? What is construed as incitement to violence and racial hatred?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10377

Value Clash: The "King's Torah" by Dr. Tzipora Pinner

Tammuz 2, 5771, 04 July 11 10:23


(Israelnationalnews.com) The storm isn't over yet. Just as the demonstrations and the TV-interviews about Rabbi Dov Lior's arrest were fizzling out and calm returned to the land, the next suspect, Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, got arrested and released after questioning. New demonstrations keep welling up.

The feeling on the left, in the political echelon and in wide parts of the mainstream media is that those recalcitrant rabbis and their unruly supporters have to be ruled in. After all, nobody is above the law. Not even renowned rabbis who think they can get away with writing an endorsement for a book like Torat Hamelech, 'The King's Torah', that explores such politically incorrect topics as the Torah's approach to warfare and treatment of enemy populations. After all, for this we have the Geneva convention.

Who needs more?

But can it really be dismissed as a fringe phenomenon on the religious extreme right? Of people who hate non-Jews for racist reasons and seek to bend Jewish law in order to eek out a permit for the killing of non-Jews?

A closer look reveals that we are not facing a book on outlook or ideology, which is, after all, often in the eye of the beholder. Rather, it is a halakhic legal exploration, akin to scientific research into the vast resources of Jewish Law, from the Gemara through the Rambam's Hilchot Melachim, the Shulchan Aruch and a vast gamut of other classic sources up to contemporary texts.

To give a general overview of the contents:

The first chapter, as if in defiance of all those who cry out that the book condones the killing of non-Jews, deals with situations in which it is forbidden to kill a non-Jew.

The second chapter examines the role of the 7 Noachide Laws which pertain to all human beings, and their transgression by non-Jews.

The third chapter relates to the question whether the obligation to die rather than to let oneself be forced to kill another person, which applies to Jews, also applies to non-Jews.

The fourth chapter deals with situations in which there is a conflict between saving the life of a Jew versus saving the life of a non-Jew.

In the fifth chapter we find laws pertaining to times of war explained and the sixth and last chapter tackles harm to innocent people.

It becomes clear that the religious laws examined in the book mostly pertain to extraordinary circumstances of war, conflict and danger to life. Situations which pose extreme challenges to moral decision making in any event, whether from a halakhic or from a secular perspective.

The critics who accuse the authors of the book of condoning the killing of non-Jews would be well-advised to remember that in every war situations of life and death arise, of waging the lives of one's own soldiers and civilians against those of the enemy's fighters and civilians, and that in every war decisions on this have to be made, based on moral values which have to be grounded in some source.

Just to give an example, during “Operation Cast Lead” against the Hamas regime in Gaza in early 2009, according to some sources up to 1400 Arabs were killed, a majority of them combatants but, as in any war, also non-combatants. This was complicated by the use of civilians as human shields by the Arabs.

Would the outcome have changed if a halakhic approach, such as the one laid down in 'The King's Torah', had been involved in the military and political decision making processes? We will never know.

But it becomes clear that the real controversy is not about ethics of warfare. Israel's modern history has been marked by wars, and they generally are not regarded as wars of choice. The conflict is ongoing, in varying intensity, with terror attacks against our own civilian population being part of the enemy's strategy and the ever-pending threat of a new all-out regional war looming over the Middle East.

It is certainly redundant to point out that in any war, people kill and get killed on both sides and that the ethics of warfare in any framework of values differ from those of peaceful times. Western ethics are no exception to this.

The real issue at stake is the distinction between Jews and non-Jews which is drawn by Halakha. This is grossly at odds with political correctness which outlaws any reference to differences of ethnic origin or faith. This is also what causes the panic in the secular, left-wing sector and the political echelon.

The fear that the Western, non-Jewish world might take offense at this lack of “equality” and “enlightenment” materialized in the shape of a book on religious law and warfare. The fear of being accused of an even worse sin: racism.

In Halakha, Jewish religious law, the concept of race doesn't exist. Any non-Jew can become a Jew through proper conversion. Many, including myself, did. As a code of religious law, Halakha does however, draw a sharp distinction between the obligations and norms expected of Jews and non-Jews.

The most basic distinction is that Jews are subject to 613 mitzvot, whereas non-Jews, as “Bnei Noach” are obligated only in the 7 Noachide laws and their various applications. This has implications on the order of priorities and obligations also in life-threatening situations, which apply to both Jews and non-Jews.

This article is not the right framework to go into details, but to give just one example: In examining the circumstances in which a Jew may kill a non-Jew in order to save his own life or that of other Jews, 'The King's Torah' starts out from situations in which, under religious law, a non-Jew may kill another non-Jew in order to save his own life. Under any circumstances where a non-Jew may kill another non-Jew to save his life, a Jew may also kill a non-Jew for the same reason.

The modern policy imposed on the Israeli army, called “purity of arms” and essentially leading to the concept of endangering one's own soldiers or civilians in order to spare the enemy's fighters or civilians and save the lives of “human shields” used by the enemy is alien to Halakha. It is not assumed that anyone, Jew or non-Jew, would spare the other side at the cost of his own, soldier or civilian, in any conflict.

Ironically, for the terror groups that attack Israel, there is not even any question whether it is permitted to kill Jewish civilians, or any Jews – it is an integral part of their strategy. On our side, even a book investigating halakhic sources regarding the rules of warfare and treatment of enemy fighters and civilians triggers hysteria.

Maybe the almost two decades of “peace process” which transformed the enemy into a “peace partner” while at the same time the armed conflict carries on, have contributed to these absurdities. Relating to the enemy as just that, an enemy who kills and has to be killed in order to stop him, has become a thing unspeakable, because its very mention would testify to the lack of diplomatic and political success.

However, the charge that a halakhic approach towards warfare that examines the priorities in saving human lives is “racist” because it is based on the halakhic distinction between Jews and non-Jews, which is in our case identical by defintion with the distinction between our own side and the enemy, is absurd.

In the end, the discourse is not about racism and not about the ethics of warfare. It is about the clash of values between Halakha, Jewish religious law, on the one hand and Western secular concepts on the other hand.

It is a clash between two law systems and the two different cultures they embody.

It is a struggle about the future of Israel, and indeed, of Judaism itself, which has been smoldering below the surface ever since the modern State of Israel was founded.

As my own perspective is from the religious side, I appreciate the erupting public discussion around The King's Torah, which shows that finally the claim of Halakha as an alternative to the Western law is being taken seriously.

The frantic arrests of rabbis by the police testify to this and served to provide the spark that ignited – the 'Jewish Spring'? In any event, public discourse about the future face of Israeli society is long overdue.quote]

[Masha]

Oh, never mind, I read muman's message above. Well, 'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring' - I balked at it. I woudn't call it incitement to racial hatred, but it's not very nice. Unless he meant that mixing any two bloods leads to barbaric offspring and different peoples should not mix. Then it's a different story. I disagree with it, but it's not offensive.

But there were non-Jewish women in the Torah who married Jewish men. You can say - "ah, but they converted to Judaism, so they were no longer Gentile." Yes, sure, but this Rabbi talks about "genetic" traits.

[Masha]

Muman - thanks for the longer article - I'll read it.

[Masha]

It sounds like an interesting book. I would really like to read it. But it probably only exists in Hebrew. I wonder whether any translations into English or Russian are available. Does anyone know?

"In the end, the discourse is not about racism and not about the ethics of warfare. It is about the clash of values between Halakha, Jewish religious law, on the one hand and Western secular concepts on the other hand." - Yes, I think this pretty much sums it up rather succinctly.