Author Topic: Multiple Wives  (Read 5615 times)

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Offline edu

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Multiple Wives
« on: July 12, 2011, 01:29:04 AM »
I saw an internet article
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=228736
that there is a new Orthodox rabbinical group that feels that halacha does not forbid a Jew from having more than one wife, while the existing Rabbinical Establishment in Israel seems to very much oppose the idea.

Any opinion on the subject?

Offline muman613

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 02:09:13 AM »
I saw an internet article
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=228736
that there is a new Orthodox rabbinical group that feels that halacha does not forbid a Jew from having more than one wife, while the existing Rabbinical Establishment in Israel seems to very much oppose the idea.

Any opinion on the subject?

Well, I'll give my opinion based on my feelings and understanding.

I think that it is OK to have multiple wives under certain conditions. In todays world I think it will cause more problems than it is worth, and we will suffer because of increased divorce and broken homes. But a man is capable of loving more than one woman and taking care of her financially. Of course not every man is capable of this, but there are some Jews who are capable of sustaining multiple wives and children.

But the problem is that today women are also much more jealous of other women, and the fighting which will occur will far exceed the frictions which are written in the Torah between the patriarchs and their wives.

It is obvious the during that at the time of the patriarchs it was common for a man to have multiple wives. I believe that this is because in order to have a lot of offspring within a few generations requires having multiple children within a year. But one woman can only have a child so often, so having multiple wives is required.

Considering the threatened 'demographic bomb' it would be wise for Jews to have more children. But as I said before there will be a lot of emotional and psychological problems caused by this. I know the jealousy of women, and I believe that it is best to be faithful to one woman...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 05:56:44 AM »
Well, I'll give my opinion based on my feelings and understanding.

I think that it is OK to have multiple wives under certain conditions.

And do you think it is OK for women to have multiple husbands ?
Because if you do, would you like your wife to sleep with other men ? And if you don't, how do you justify women's inferior status ?


It is obvious the during that at the time of the patriarchs it was common for a man to have multiple wives. I believe that this is because in order to have a lot of offspring within a few generations requires having multiple children within a year. But one woman can only have a child so often, so having multiple wives is required.


I don't understand. If one man fertilizes three different women in a given year, these three women will give birth to three children at the end of the year (assuming there are no twins !). But if each one of these three women was fertilized by a different man, there would not be fewer children born at the end of the year, there would still be three of them. Your argument works only if there is a shortage of men relative to the number of women. But if the number of men and women is approximately the same, as verified in reality, it doesn’t work.

Besides, what do you guys make of the prohibition of adultery ? How does it fit with the macho un-Jewish fantasy of multiple wives brought up in this thread ?

Offline edu

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 01:01:14 PM »
Yaakov Mendel commented
Quote
Besides, what do you guys make of the prohibition of adultery ? How does it fit with the macho un-Jewish fantasy of multiple wives brought up in this thread ?

During the times of the Tanach it was permitted for a man to have more than one wife. So for example, the prophet Elkana, father of the prophet Samuel{Shmuel} had 2 wives.
The halachic definition of adultery is a married woman who has relations with a man that is not her husband.
This is not to say that everything that is not called adultery is permitted, but this is too wide of a topic to go into right now.
The following I copied from the ou website http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rgershom.htm
Rabbeinu Gershom was born in the year 960 in Metz, in northeastern France, but he moved to Maintz, in Germany. There he became a devoted student of Rav Yehudah Leontin. Rabbeinu Gershom would succeed Rabbi Leontin upon the latter’s death as the head of the great Yeshivah of Maintz, the flower of the Torah citadel of Maintz. That holy community was already being shown a most unholy and brutal side of Christendom, and it would be completely destroyed later, during the Crusades.

Around the year 1000, Rabbeinu Gershom instituted various “takkanot,” institutional reforms, in Jewish life. The most famous of these are the following:

1. A man is forbidden to marry more than one woman, a practice that is permitted by the Torah. (Incidentally, this “takkanah” was not accepted by Sephardic Jewry until the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, in a move towards the unification of the Jewish People.)

Offline muman613

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 03:12:18 PM »
Quote
Besides, what do you guys make of the prohibition of adultery ? How does it fit with the macho un-Jewish fantasy of multiple wives brought up in this thread ?

Judaism most certainly had always allowed for men to marry multiple wives... As edu points out it was only because the ways of the nations that Jewish law was modified.

If not there would be no need for the commandment in Duet 21:15:

15. If a man has two wives-one beloved and the other despised-and they bear him sons, the beloved one and the despised one, and the firstborn son is from the despised one.
16. Then it will be, on the day he [the husband] bequeaths his property to his sons, that he will not be able to give the son of the beloved [wife] birthright precedence over the son of the despised [wife]-the [real] firstborn son.
17. Rather, he must acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the despised [wife] and give him a double share in all that he possesses, because he [this firstborn son] is the first of his strength, then he has the birthright entitlement.


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 03:16:18 PM »
Here is what Chabad says on this topic:



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/770990/jewish/Why-does-Torah-law-allow-polygamy.htm

Why does Torah law allow polygamy?

Just to magnify your question somewhat, you'll note that Torah presents the original paradigm of marriage – that of Adam and Eve – as monogamous. Furthermore, virtually every instance of polygamy recounted in the Torah is related directly by the narrative to some sort of calamity—whether strife between competing wives, as was the case with Hannah and Peninah,1 or between rivaling half-siblings, e.g. Jacob's2 and King David's sons.3 Even the very verse4 in which the Torah provides a green light for polygamy frames it within an undesirable circumstance: "If a man will have two wives, one beloved and the other hated..."

Why then make room for trouble? If the ideal union of man and woman is an exclusive one, why should a "nation of priests and a holy people" compromise?

The simple answer is that Torah deals with life on earth, and the gamut of social life and human experience over all of history and world geography is too diverse to be restricted to one narrow ideal. Take, for example, an agrarian society whose male population has been decimated by war. How are women to survive and how is the population to replenish itself without the mechanism of polygamy? Similarly, a man married to a barren woman who could not produce sons to help in the field and defend the fort would find himself ill put to survive in those times. In an exclusively monogamous society, his wife would find her position insecure. Although, in normative circumstances, being "only one of many" compromises a woman's value as a person, in these situations a permit for polygamy is a form of compassion.

The only case of a polygamous rabbi recorded in the Talmud5 provides an excellent illustration: Rabbi Tarfon married 300 women. Why? Because there was a famine in the land. But Rabbi Tarfon had plenty of food, since he was a Kohen and received the priestly tithes. The wife of a Kohen is also permitted to eat those tithes. Those 300 women were very happy that the Torah permitted polygamy.

Torah discourages abuse of this permit—not just by recounting the calamitous narratives mentioned above, but also by placing requirements on the husband. For every extra wife, no matter how lowly her status, a man must provide "food, clothing and conjugal rights" commensurate to her needs, his capacity and equal to any other wives.6 Additionally, the husband must provide separate housing for each wife. Divorce requires involvement of the scribes, and the sages later instituted the ketubah as a further impediment of divorce. (See also Why is Jewish Marriage so One-Sided?) We see that these means were in fact effective, polygamy in Jewish circles was historically a rare exception.

Rare, but necessary nevertheless. Even when Rabbi Gershom and his Rabbinical Court assembled to create a ban on polygamy due to the conditions of their time (see previous link for more on this injunction), they nevertheless left the door open for extenuating circumstances. That loophole has proven vital in many an instance—for example, the case of a wife who has become (G‑d forbid) mentally incapacitated and is not halachically qualified to receive a divorce.

You may wish to think of Torah as the DNA of a highly resilient organism called the Jewish People. Whenever circumstances change, this organism looks back into its DNA and finds some code that allows for an adaptive modality. There's plenty off limits, but there is enough leeway to provide for every situation human life on planet earth can throw at you. Proof is, we've been through it all – nomadic, agrarian, civilized, industrial, technological – and in every part of the world, and we're still here, strong as ever.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 03:17:46 PM »
Judaism most certainly had always allowed for men to marry multiple wives... As edu points out it was only because the ways of the nations that Jewish law was modified.

If not there would be no need for the commandment in Duet 21:15:

15. If a man has two wives-one beloved and the other despised-and they bear him sons, the beloved one and the despised one, and the firstborn son is from the despised one.
16. Then it will be, on the day he [the husband] bequeaths his property to his sons, that he will not be able to give the son of the beloved [wife] birthright precedence over the son of the despised [wife]-the [real] firstborn son.
17. Rather, he must acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the despised [wife] and give him a double share in all that he possesses, because he [this firstborn son] is the first of his strength, then he has the birthright entitlement.




Yes, I know that. I did not claim the opposite.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 03:53:38 PM »
Yaakov Mendel commented
During the times of the Tanach it was permitted for a man to have more than one wife. So for example, the prophet Elkana, father of the prophet Samuel{Shmuel} had 2 wives.

I know.

The halachic definition of adultery is a married woman who has relations with a man that is not her husband.

Still, several biblical passages that explicitly prescribe the death penalty for adulterers do so for BOTH the man and the woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-24; Ezek. 16:38-40). One who gazes at a married woman with lustful eyes is also called an adulterer. All these passages indicate that men are guilty of adultery too.


Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 04:13:52 PM »

In the  patriarchal age polygamy was just regarded as an unquestioned custom, as a heritage from the past, but it was not directly sanctioned. The polygamous system then declined. Throughout the Talmudic age not one rabbi is known to have had more than one wife. Polygamy was just a temporary concession to time and condition.
It is also important to emphasize that the taking of additional wives by the husband was held as sufficient ground for divorce for a woman who had previously been the sole wife.
Rabbi Gershom's edict banned polygamy among Ashkenazi Jews.
Today, Jews live in countries that ban polygamy by civil law anyway.

So why bring this up ?

Offline muman613

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 08:12:25 PM »
In the  patriarchal age polygamy was just regarded as an unquestioned custom, as a heritage from the past, but it was not directly sanctioned. The polygamous system then declined. Throughout the Talmudic age not one rabbi is known to have had more than one wife. Polygamy was just a temporary concession to time and condition.
It is also important to emphasize that the taking of additional wives by the husband was held as sufficient ground for divorce for a woman who had previously been the sole wife.
Rabbi Gershom's edict banned polygamy among Ashkenazi Jews.
Today, Jews live in countries that ban polygamy by civil law anyway.

So why bring this up ?

Quote
The only case of a polygamous rabbi recorded in the Talmud5 provides an excellent illustration: Rabbi Tarfon married 300 women. Why? Because there was a famine in the land. But Rabbi Tarfon had plenty of food, since he was a Kohen and received the priestly tithes. The wife of a Kohen is also permitted to eat those tithes. Those 300 women were very happy that the Torah permitted polygamy.


5.    Jerusalem Talmud, Yevamot 4:12.


Why bring it up? Because in the future Jews will not be subject to 'secular' law and we will live under Torah law... And under Torah law it is possible it may be acceptable.

But as I said the issue will be whether women are prepared for such a lifestyle. I do think that there are women who could live with this but there will be many problems...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 08:19:22 PM »
A woman can demand a divorce under certain circumstances:



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/560111/jewish/The-Wifes-Grounds-for-Divorce.htm

Irresponsibility

The primary right of a woman to demand a divorce is linked to situations when basic marital needs have been neglected, or abused by the husband. The husband is then "convinced" by the court to both grant the get to his wife, and to give her the ketubah (marital contract) settlement.

The husband who has been derelict with regard to the sustenance that he is obliged to give to his wife, or the conjugal visitation that he must share with his wife, has thereby violated a primary responsibility of the marital covenant, and the wife has the right to a divorce in these situations. These elements of the marriage are so crucial, that their being used by the husband as a weapon with which to deprive the wife, either emotionally or physically, is considered a breach of the sacred marital trust.

A woman may demand a divorce from her husband, if he has been found to be philandering with other women. There need not be proof of his having committed adultery, just of his having cavorted with other women. Even his causing her a bad name through his lecherous actions is likewise considered legitimate justification for the wife launching a divorce action. If the wife feels repulsed by her husband, it is wrong to force her to remain in the union. If the wife should make a vow that affects the marital union, such as a vow related to abstaining from conjugal union or some other impediment to marital viability, and the husband purposely fails to annul that vow, this is interpreted as a desire on his part to sever the relationship. The wife may then demand a divorce.

Should the husband, via a vow, forbid the wife to engage in any form of work, this is considered sufficient grounds for the wife to demand a get. The reasoning behind this is that imposed idleness has certain adverse personal consequences, leading to frustration and perhaps even worse. No wife can be coerced into such an adversity.



What is obvious is that in a multiple-wife circumstance all wives must be willing to live under those arrangements.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 01:25:09 AM »
Yaacov Mendel stated:
Quote
Still, several biblical passages that explicitly prescribe the death penalty for adulterers do so for BOTH the man and the woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-24; Ezek. 16:38-40).

Yes, the man too is guilty of a death penalty crime if he had relations with the wife of another Jew.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 11:24:06 PM »
I saw an internet article
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=228736
that there is a new Orthodox rabbinical group that feels that halacha does not forbid a Jew from having more than one wife, while the existing Rabbinical Establishment in Israel seems to very much oppose the idea.

Any opinion on the subject?

Of course halacha does not forbid it.   Sefardim brought multiple wives to Israel, but they were "ashkenazified" and "Israelized" where the Israeli law prohibits having multiple wives, so they don't have them anymore.   But the fact is that they were polygamous for centuries until Israel came and "re-educated" them.   And the notion that Rabenu Gershom's takana has any halachic authority outside of his time and place, is of course totally ludicrous.   It barely had validity when he wrote it, but the French Jews dutifully followed their leader, and that is probably the right thing to do, but even referring to it as a "takana" is a "wink wink" sort of thing, obviously.   And certainly it has nothing to do with us today in the many places we live and under the many different ravs who are our authorities.

That said, I'll take one wife, b'ezrat Hashem.

To those who seek multiple wives, good luck finding a woman in today's day and age that is ok with playing second fiddle or "sharing you" with someone else!   Not... gonna... happen...
That's why that group is sort of amusing to me.   In a way it's very true, that will solve a lot of problems and help many women get married who are otherwise alone.   But what wife is going to agree to it!?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 11:25:41 PM »
(Incidentally, this “takkanah” was not accepted by Sephardic Jewry until the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, in a move towards the unification of the Jewish People.)

Accepted?  Lol.  The state of Israel (and its agents, including hired and paid-for rabbis) forced it upon them.

Offline edu

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Re: Multiple Wives
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2011, 02:40:23 PM »
Kahane-Was-Right BT  took issue with what I quoted from the Ou Website
Quote
(Incidentally, this “takkanah” was not accepted by Sephardic Jewry until the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, in a move towards the unification of the Jewish People.)
He responded:
Quote
Accepted?  Lol.  The state of Israel (and its agents, including hired and paid-for rabbis) forced it upon them.

Are you familiar with a prominent Sephardic Rabbi, today, who retains the original view ? Or at least some prominent rabbinical personality, that agrees with you that it was forced on the Sephardic Community?