Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Is Charvonah a Gentile, or was he Eliyahu the Prophet in disguise?

(1/2) > >>

edu:
Is Charvonah a Gentile, (who probably had incorrect beliefs about G-d) or was he Eliyahu (Elijah) the prophet in disguise. In other words do we owe this Gentile a debt of gratitude or does all the credit go to Eliyahu, acting as an agent of G-d.
First a quick review, since I assume some readers know very little about the Bible. In the biblical book of Esther, an evil man named Haman, influences the Persian King who ruled over 127 states to issue a decree of Genocide against the Jewish people. The Bible tells how Mordechai and Esther struggled to undo the evil decree and save the Jews. They succeeded in getting the Persian King, angry at Haman and then at a key point, when the king was already angry at Haman, Charvonah adds, that Haman had prepared a tree to execute Mordechai by Hanging on the very day, when the King had decided to reward Mordechai for saving his life, years earlier.
The King said hang Haman on that tree. Mordechai was then appointed as second in command and used his influence to allow the Jews to take revenge against all that sought their harm.
On the holiday of Purim, after reading the book of Esther, there is a prayer that we recite that sums up our feelings about some of the key individuals in the story.
Accursed be Haman who sought to destroy me, blessed be Mordechai the Yehudi,. Accursed be Zeresh the wife of my terrorizer, blessed be Esther [who sacrificed] for me - and Charvonah, too, be remebered for good.{translation by Artscroll Siddur}.
The need to show gratitude to Charvonah is also brought down in Shulchan Aruch, O.C. 690:16, and the Vilna Gaon traces the source to the Rosh, who cites the Yerushalmi in tractate Megilla.
But who is Charvonah?
The simple answer is that he was a Persian official and I will try to bring a source later on, (bli neder). There is however, a view of some Rabbis, that it was Eliyahu the prophet who impersonated Charvonah. I intend to say more about this later on. But I thought that it is best for the article, to present it stages and at different times.

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Wow, I never knew about this opinion that Eliyahu was involved in this story somehow.   That's really interesting, although I think you know which opinion I think is correct.

But let me ask this, according to those who suggest it was Eliyahu in disguise, why is the bracha worded in such a way?   ie - 'and charvonah too'     - that language in itself implies this was someone who wasn't necessarily associated with us, yet did something in our favor and so we should thank him, as an additional thing.    How would that possibly be a way to speak of Eliyahu, had he taken a role there?     Similarly, why would we need to be instructed specifically to be thankful toward Eliyahu if it was him?    It makes much more sense if that is some Persian official who stood up for us when he didn't have to, and while God would have saved us (that's the theme of the story) still we owe him thanks for the part he played and we do have to be told that.

edu:
In Talmud Bavli tractate Megilla page 16 Rabbi Elazar, gives his viewpoint about Charvonah, I will rely on the Soncino translation to make things easier. Charvonah was also a wicked man and implicated in that plot (several commentaries explain he was part of the plot to hang Mordechai and that's how he knew all the details about the tree that was set up to hang Mordechai). When he saw that his plan was not working he at once fled, and so it is written, "And he cast upon him and did not pity, from his hand he surely fleeth"(Iyov/Job 27:22, the commentaries, explain that this verse is a reference to evil plotters, such as Charvonah that will cast all the fault on their fellow sinner and not pity in order to flee from potential harm when their plot starts to fail.)
Some Midrashim, such as Pirkei De Rebbi Eliezer (Chorev, Chapter 49) and Esther Rabba , hold that it was Eliyahu the prophet who impersonated Charvonah, who squealed against Haman. Maharil, and Maharzu to Bereishit Rabba 49:1 say that "zachur latov" (=may he be remembered for good) is often appended to the name of Eliyahu {In Bircat Hamazon, we say The All-merciful will send to us Eliyahu the Prophet, zachur latov). This is the same praise, zachur latov, given to Charvonah, thus indicating that it was really Eliyahu. Others say that the type of message, he had to say was fitting for someone with the status of Eliyahu. I also read from some source that I can't remember that the spelling of Charvonah is slightly different, when he speaks good about the Jews then it is  when his name is first mentioned in Esther 1:10, thus hinting that the Charvonah in chapter 7 is Eliyahu in disguise. Also, in the story of Nachum Ish Gamzu, there the Talmud explicitly, stated that Eliyahu impersonated a Roman official in order to save Nachum Ish Gamzu, and the Jewish people from the Roman Emperor.
    Malbim in his commentary to Esther 6:14 seems to be going with a third view that Charvonah happened to hear about the plot to hang Mordechai, when Haman was speaking to his advisors and wife, if he is likely to succeed against Mordechai after he had already suffered a great failure, when the King had forced him to honor his Jewish enemy.
    I also found evidence in Yalkut Shimoni (to Esther , remez 1059) that there are 3 major viewpoints about Charvonah. Namely, the 3 cited above.
Here the opinions are attributed to different Rabbis than in other sources.
Rabbi Chama the son of Chanina said, even the wicked Charvonah was in on that plot; but when he saw that his suggestion was not being fulfilled, immediately, he ran away. This is as it is stated, "And he cast upon him and did not pity, from his hand he surely fleeth"(Iyov/Job 27:22). Rav said, Charvonah, may he be  remembered for good, yet there are those that say, in that hour Eliyahu, "zachur latov", came and impersonated Charvonah.
    I hope to add more about this subject later on.

muman613:
I know my comment doesn't quite relate to what you are talking about here but I will discuss it anyway.

In the Megillah Ester there are a couple of places where divine providence through the action of Malachim {Angels} can be seen.

It is said that it was an angel who actually pushed Haman so that he would fall on the couch that Esther was laying on just in time for the King to catch him. It was this, his falling on Esthers couch, which compelled the King to have Haman hung. I have heard it said that it was Angel Michael who did this, although I believe that there is some disagreement on this (most sources identify the angel as Gavriel)...

WebShas lists the following 4 events in the story of Esther involving Angelic intervention. Also listed are the Talmudic volume which relates this story.

http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/purim/estach.htm

* The 3 Angels who accompanied Esther to Achashverosh, and aided her in gaining his approval and sceptre: Megillah 15b

* Esther first pointing to Achashverosh in identifying the Jews' enemy, then an Angel turning her hand toward Haman: Megillah 16a

* An Angel pushing Haman down on Esther's bed, as Achashverosh entered: Megillah 16a

* Achashverosh was planning to protest the Jews' pillage of their enemies, to Esther; an Angel slapped him and he changed his sentence: Megillah 16b


This site claims that it was the Angel Gavriel who pushed Haman:


--- Quote ---Immediately afterwards, a crestfallen Haman is whisked to the second Royal dinner, hosted by Esther. At the dinner she reveals to the King that she is Jewish and that Haman is an enemy of the King because he seeks to destroy the Jewish people.

The embarrassed and angry King storms out of the room. Haman pleads to Esther for his life. He "somehow" loses his balance and falls on the couch where Esther is reclining. (The Malach (Angel) Gavriel pushed him.) The King comes back at just this moment. He is very upset and blows up.

On the spot, Charvona, a royal minister tells the King about the gallows Haman constructed for Mordechai, who saved the King's life. The King orders Haman to be hanged on the gallows intended for Mordechai.
--- End quote ---

And this also explains this:


--- Quote ---"...And the judge shall *throw him down* (root: 'Nofel')... ."

This verse suggests Haman's eventual punishment. In the Purim story, Haman's final downfall came when Ester the Queen revealed to Achashverosh the King that Haman was out to destroy her and her nation the Jews. While the King left the palace to consider the matter, Haman fell on Ester's couch and begged her for mercy. When the King returned, he found Haman fallen on the couch at Ester's feet. The King turned to Haman and said 'You even want to take away my Queen!' Haman was immediately sentenced to death (Megillat Ester 7:6-9). The Gemara tells us that Haman had meant to stand up when he saw the King returning, but Hashem did not allow him to stand up (Megilla 16a). Hashem sent an angel to come and push him down, and he remained fallen ("Nofel") on the couch of Ester where the King found him. The verse in Devarim suggests to us this episode. The judge -- meaning Hashem -- threw Haman down.
--- End quote ---

http://www.shemayisrael.com/yomtov/purim/sedrah_purim68.htm


--- Quote ---Ch. 7, v. 4: “Ki nimkarnu ani v’ami l’hashmid” – Because we were sold I and my nation to be destroyed – The gemara Megiloh 16a says that when Achashveirosh asked Esther who was the person who planned to destroy her and her nation, she attempted to point her finger squarely at Achashveirosh himself, as he was the covert enemy who harboured even more hatred towards the bnei Yisroel than did Homon. An angel interceded and forced her finger towards Homon. Rashi says that this is derived from the lengthy description, “Ish tzar v’oyeiv Homon horo ha’zeh,” when it would have sufficed to just say, “Homon ho’ro ha’zeh.” “Ish tzar v’oyeiv” is Achashveirosh. There might be another indication that Esther was about to say that Achashveirosh was the villain, based on these words of our verse. In truth the problem wasn’t that they were sold. It is that they were purchased by someone who had diabolical plans for them. Why didn’t she say “ki lukachnu?” We see that she was about to accuse Achashveirosh, the seller. (Nirreh li)    
--- End quote ---

In this one the angels are identified as Michael & Gavriel:

http://www.arachimusa.org/Index.asp?ArticleID=544&CategoryID=127&Page=1


--- Quote ---G-d was angry with Haman, and declared: “Since this evil-doer has slain the messenger of Mordecai and Esther, I shall send My angels, Michael and Gabriel, to be their messengers and to carry out any orders they are given.”

The two angels went to Mordecai and told him what Esther had replied.  He sent them back to her to tell her: “Know, Esther, that you have been chosen as queen only in order to save your people. If you remain silent at this time, relief and rescue will arrive for the Jews from another source, and you and your father’s house will be lost.
--- End quote ---

edu:
I will add a minor clarification so as not to be accused of misquoting
When I mentioned Yalkut Shimoni (to Esther , remez 1059) that there is a view that Eliyahu, "zachur latov", came and impersonated Charvonah, in the original source that is in my possesion, it just uses the abbreviation z.l. after the name of Eliyahu. Based on what I brought in the name of Maharil and Maharzu, I interpreted the abbreviation as "zachur latov", although those that wish to interpret the abbreviation differently are free to do so.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page