Author Topic: Kaballa true or false?  (Read 4474 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 06:59:34 PM »
Are you saying that whatever Sadia Gaon says is 100% emet? Or is he another Chacham with an opinion? 

No.  I clarified my comment but the site was down so isaved it.  I will paste it in later so it will be more clear what I'm saying.

Quote
Here is what AskMoses says on this topic:

Of course like clockwork you did what I predicted.


Btw in response, I would say its really easy to dismiss questions and objections by saying "you are uninitiated so you just don't understand the secret kaballah" but trust me that you or he is not convincing anyone with that kind of logic.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 07:12:11 PM »
No.  I clarified my comment but the site was down so isaved it.  I will paste it in later so it will be more clear what I'm saying.

Of course like clockwork you did what I predicted.


Btw in response, I would say its really easy to dismiss questions and objections by saying "you are uninitiated so you just don't understand the secret kaballah" but trust me that you or he is not convincing anyone with that kind of logic.

Yes, and you like clockwork did exactly as I expected... So we are even..

And I don't quite understand what you are saying... It is well known that Kabbalah was never intended for everyone to study. It is an esoteric study which is not essential for basic Jewish observance. So there is nothing magical or nefarious for any Rabbi to point this out.

PS: Did you happen to hear Chaims response on the topic?

http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380748/jewish/Arguments-of-the-Skeptics.htm
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 07:46:27 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Chai

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2011, 08:19:14 PM »
Chaim said there are 70 faces of the Torah that was good enough for me, now I will try to learn in a unbiased way if the works of the Kabbala are from mattan torah.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2011, 08:23:09 PM »
Chaim said there are 70 faces of the Torah that was good enough for me, now I will try to learn in a unbiased way if the works of the Kabbala are from mattan torah.

It is always wise to remember that there is a machloket concerning this topic. I will not say with 100% certainty that everything which is called Kabbalah is 100% true. But I listen to many Rabbis on the topic and try to learn from them all. And it is true what Chaim said concerning the 70 faces of Torah...

Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-624.html
It should also be borne in mind that the Sages tell us there are many valid interpretations to the Torah. The Midrash writes that there are 70 "faces" (facets) to the Torah (Bamidbar Rabbah 13:15). There are many valid ways of understanding each part of the Torah -- some more literal and some more profound -- but all valid according to the legitimate methods of Torah study handed to us. Thus, the Sages who contested R. Eliezer did not consider themselves "wrong". Perhaps their opinion was not the most profound in an absolute sense. But they correctly recognized that it was the only explanation their generation could fathom.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Utmager

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2011, 08:26:21 PM »
The Vilna Gaon states that "The main part of the Geulah is dependent on the study of Kabbalah" (Even Shleimah).

A major part of R.Kahane's ideology in his Or Hara'ayon was based on the Vilna Gaon's "Kol HaTor".

Thus a true Kahanist worthy of his salt, is obliged to believe in the Kaballah.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2011, 08:50:34 PM »
The Vilna Gaon states that "The main part of the Geulah is dependent on the study of Kabbalah" (Even Shleimah).

A major part of R.Kahane's ideology in his Or Hara'ayon was based on the Vilna Gaon's "Kol HaTor".

Thus a true Kahanist worthy of his salt, is obliged to believe in the Kaballah.

I believe I have heard something about that... But I am interested in what Rabbi Kahanes position on Kabbalah was.

And I have found a link which confirms what you said here:

Quote
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/99/Q2/
Binyomin Altman wrote:

I recently read the following statement of the Vilna Gaon: "The ultimate redemption of the Jewish People (Geula) will come about only through learning Torah; And primarily through learning Kabbalah [Torah's deep secrets]. Since I don't learn Kabbalah, is my Torah study insignificant with respect to bringing about the final redemption?

Dear Binyomin,

Kabbalah certainly has 'redeeming' qualities. But it has dangers as well. On his death-bed, the Arizal (preeminent Kabbalist, 16th century Safed, Israel) told Rabbi Yitzchak Hakohen: "Tell the disciples in my name that from today they are to stop studying Kabbalah." He warned that they might misunderstand it and thus come to harm.

I spoke to Rabbi Shlomo Fisher, shlita, about this statement of the Vilna Gaon. He explained it as follows: Learning Kabbalah requires an exceptionally high spiritual level. The Geula will come when the people at that high level learn Kabbalah.

As far as the 'significance' of your studies in bringing the Geula, the Talmud says that Torah study helps us survive the exile. And were the whole Jewish people to learn Torah, the Geula would come immediately!

http://www.messiahtruth.com/zionism.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2011, 10:50:53 PM »
The Vilna Gaon states that "The main part of the Geulah is dependent on the study of Kabbalah" (Even Shleimah).

A major part of R.Kahane's ideology in his Or Hara'ayon was based on the Vilna Gaon's "Kol HaTor".

Thus a true Kahanist worthy of his salt, is obliged to believe in the Kaballah.

In the "main part of Rabbi Kahane's ideology" when he explains it in his writings and speeches he does not give a mystical approach and he does not cite kaballah, so stop misleading people.  Kol hator is not solely a kabalah sefer.

Offline edu

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2011, 02:38:24 AM »
Quote from utmager
Quote
The Vilna Gaon states that "The main part of the Geulah is dependent on the study of Kabbalah" (Even Shleimah).

A major part of R.Kahane's ideology in his Or Hara'ayon was based on the Vilna Gaon's "Kol HaTor".

Thus a true Kahanist worthy of his salt, is obliged to believe in the Kaballah.

In his writings, Rabbi Kahane wrote explicitly "I am not a man of the Zohar". He did however, occasionally make use of Kabbalistic sources, but it was certainly not the main focus of Rabbi Kahane.
Rabbi Kahane's general agreement with Kol Hator does not necessarily mean he agreed on every point of the book.
In addition, even if we assume he did support Kabbalah learning, one has to define more precisely, what is Kaballah? The Vilna Gaon's Kabballah for example, disputes the Kabbalah of the Ari on some major points. So does the call of Kol Hator (which is allied to the Vilna Gaon's Kabbalah) mean a call to learn the Ari's Kabbalah?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2011, 02:03:04 AM »
Ok here is the comment I intended to write a few days ago but was really busy.  Since then I've been posting only from my phone.

Quote from: Chai
Yea , by evidence I meant some kind of text or Idea. How does Saadiah Gaon refute reincarnation?  

To my knowledge, the way he refutes it is he flat out says, it's a pagan belief and as an idea it is foreign to Judaism and its beliefs.  I don't think he thought it needed refutation, he dismissed it.     It obviously has no source in Talmud or else he could not say that.    His major hashkafic work Emunot v'deot goes into detail of the ikkarim of Judaism as Rav Saadiah sees them.  I'm not saying it's gospel of course, Rambam has a differing opinion with some of his views, and where he does, he expresses disagreement without any hesitation, but this is done with sources to back up the ideas and/or philosophical proofs.    Saadiah Gaon bases himself on the sources... to call a view non-Jewish is quite a statement.   It's not saying it's an incorrect view, it's saying that no Jewish scholar possibly agrees to it, and Saadiah knew and learned with all of the gaonim - for a time he was their head, he was head scholar of the yeshiva (hence the title Gaon).    

Of course Jewish history evolved and Judaism took a different turn with the influence of kabbalah, where nowadays almost every Jewish rabbi accepts the notion of reincarnation because its in zohar and almost every single Jewish rabbi "accepts" zohar as the predominant hashkafic and mystic text so they won't argue on any of its concepts.  But popularity does not make something correct.  And I know rabbis, including one I know personally who does not agree to all the ideas in zohar, does not believe there is reincarnation, and does not subscribe to what everyone supposedly "accepts."    I think a person probably has to think about it and figure out what he thinks is true, and if that's how it is, to think differently is no sin.     I go with my conscience and what seems correct to me and the rabbis whose teachings I respect I take into serious consideration.  In the end, Hashem gave us all a brain.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:12:51 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2011, 02:11:06 AM »
I am not so familiar with what Sadia Gaon wrote or taught. Did he accept the belief in Resurrection of the Dead? That is one which many rationalists have a problem with. But it too is universally accepted and it is even a part of Rambams 13 principles.

And I never understood how the so-called rationalists could read the Tanakh & the Talmud and not believe that Hashem sometimes performs supernatural feats. The Torah is full of these kinds of events, as is the Talmud and Midrash, etc... I could start to list these events which have no real rational explanation.

Let me say that this is a somewhat off-topic comment because you are mainly addressing the topic of Reincarnation. But let us digress for a moment and discuss the difference between rationalists and mystics...

http://www.jewishmag.com/22mag/mystic/mystic.htm
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:19:48 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2011, 02:16:36 AM »
And now so that my above comment is clearer I also want to add there are several separate questions being addressed in this thread, and it's important not to conflate them.  So I will preempt that now.

1.   Is reincarnation sourced in the Talmud?

No.   And I quote Rav Saadiah Gaon specifically to address this question.   Because he would not say what he said if it had a source in Talmud, quite obviously.   Little else needs to be added, but suffice to say that Rav Saadiah gaon knew Talmud backwards and forwards and likely even helped author it (scholars agree gaonim had some input on a handful of statements contained in talmud, before it was fully canonized completely).  What Saadiah Gaon defined as Judaism was based on Scripture and Talmud.   (another clue about zohar's date of birth considering the gaonim didn't know of such a thing.   The gaonim, and the saboraim before them, WERE the mesora.  They transmitted from the tannaim and amoraim everything).

2.  Is reincarnation a Jewish belief?

Well I give one opinion by citing Rav Saadiah Gaon, supported as well by Rambam, and pretty much any Torah scholar pre-Isaac-the-Blind mystic school era.    I acknowledge that the vast majority of rabbis today think otherwise due to the widespread influence of zohar, and I encourage any person to study and think about his own view in light of the facts and available information, and encourage whatever conclusion they draw for themselves.    It's a hashkafic matter, obviously.      On the other hand, its purely philosophical and esoteric nature may make it a question whether it's even a subject worth thinking about.   We won't know about death until we die.  Meantime, we have work to do.

 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2011, 02:17:50 AM »
I am not so familiar with what Sadia Gaon wrote or taught. Did he accept the belief in Resurrection of the Dead? 

 :o

MUMAN

Are you serious?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2011, 02:19:47 AM »
First of all, Rambam is considered among the foremost rationalist rishonim.  There were many great ones in Spain (Sepharad).    Why are you turning the world rationalist into an insult?    And why are you pretending that Rav Saadiah Gaon was not one of the greatest Jewish scholars of all time?    You're trying to make him into some kind of unknown nobody (chas veshalom) who led a cult or something?  I have news for you he and the other gaonim were the mesora itself.   Without them, Talmud never reaches the rishonim.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2011, 02:22:37 AM »
First of all, Rambam is considered among the foremost rationalist rishonim.  There were many great ones in Spain (Sepharad).    Why are you turning the world rationalist into an insult?    And why are you pretending that Rav Saadiah Gaon was not one of the greatest Jewish scholars of all time?    You're trying to make him into some kind of unknown nobody who led a cult?  I have news for you he and the other gaonim were the mesora itself.   Without them, Talmud never reaches the rishonim.

I am sorry but that is not what I am trying to do. I have heard a lot of Rabbis and I am sure that I have heard the Gaons name mentioned. I never said I did not hear of him. I try to learn from all Rabbis because as Chaim said, there are 70 faces of Torah and it is said that all of them are correct.

I am not negating or challenging what you are saying. Sometimes I feel like you think I am competing against you and it is never my intention to do that. I hope that our conversations will yield the truth and enlighten all Jews and gentiles to what is truth.

I apologize for appearing to insult the Gaon.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2011, 02:27:34 AM »
I have also said many times that a persons belief in this area is acceptable as long as it does not violate the basic principles of Judaism. And as you said the entire Olam Haba is open to interpretation. We don't really know what it is like except for the small bits which our prophets and great Talmudic Rabbis have described.

A lot of wisdom has been learned from some of the great Chassidic Rabbis and I believe that this wisdom is from Ruach HaKodesh. I am pretty sure you challenge this belief but I should not put words in your mouth.

Let us seek the truth and learn from everyone...

http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-1a.html
"Ben (the son of) Zoma said: Who is wise? He who learns from all people, as it is said: 'From all those who taught me I gained understanding' (Psalms 119:99). Who is strong? He who conquers his evil inclination, as it is said: 'Better is one slow to anger than a strong man, and one who rules over his spirit than a conqueror of a city' (Proverbs 16:32). Who is rich? He who is satisfied with his lot, as it is said: 'When you eat the toil of your hands you are fortunate and it is good for you' (Psalms 128:2). 'You are fortunate' -- in this world; 'and it is good for you' -- in the World to Come. Who is honored? He who honors others, as it is said: 'For those who honor Me will I honor, and those who scorn Me will be degraded' (I Samuel 2:30)."
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:35:07 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Chai

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2011, 06:29:10 AM »
http://www.koshertorah.com/nullifying-kishufim.html

Nullifying Kishufim
By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2007 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved.

A very interesting story about witchcraft is related in the Gemara (Shabat 81b).

Rav Hisda and Rabah bar Rav Huna are traveling on a boat when they are approached by a woman who wishes to be seated near them.  Sensing something wrong, the two Sages refuse.  In response, the woman utters something under her breath and suddenly the boats stops, unable to move forward.  The Sages aware of the subtle power unleashed here unleash a force of their own.  Together they say a word and the ship suddenly moves again, the power of the woman was broken.  The Sages were faced by a witch using witchcraft and they responded by neutralizing her powers by using a holy Name emanating from the Torah.

While the Gemara does not reveal to us what this special holy Name is, one of our later Sages, the Ba�al Shem Tov (SBST, Mishpatim 5) did.  In a moment I will reveal the Name, yet prior to doing so, it is important that we fist understand some essential aspects about witchcraft and about holy Names.

First and foremost, we must understand that our Sages not only believed that the powers of witchcraft were (and are) real, they were also very much well educated in ways of Torah that can be used to neutralize it.  Our Sages were well versed in the  ways and means of both natural and supernatural laws; they were well versed and experienced in interacting with inter-dimensional beings and forces that can be unleashed from within the hidden recesses of the human mind.

This knowledge is nothing new.  Even in Biblical times, the Torah speaks of Bilaam who had the power to curse the nation of Israel.  Now, a curse is far more than just a bad wish one projects onto another.  A curse has an actual power to it that can create the negative results solicited.  It was for this reason that HaShem Himself intervened and sent His Angel to prevent Bilaam from unleashing this very real and negative power.

Other Biblical examples abound.  Therefore, anyone who claims to truly accept and follow Torah must acknowledge the reality and danger of these powers.  Although some later Sages were of the opinion that witchcraft was nothing more than a form of trickery, most other Sages were not so simplistic.

Today, most Rabbis follow in the philosophical footsteps of the rationalist school of Eastern Europe and therefore dismiss and distain anything mystical or mysterious.  Not only do these Rabbis dismiss witchcraft as having any significance, they have gone so far as to dismiss the value and legitimacy of Torah mysticism, the Kabbalah.  Unfortunately this self-imposed ignorance has created a large number of Rabbis who cannot understand or deal with spiritual matters or threats, so much unlike our Sages of old, who were very much experts in this field.

Although a large number of Rabbis today are unaware of the dangers posed by alternate spiritual realities, not all our modern day Sages share this ignorance.  Those well trained in the ways of the original Hasidim and in the ways of the old Sephardic schools have maintained the ancient knowledge and use it today with the same efficiency and success as was in ancient times.

A detailed exposition about how witchcraft and other spiritual forces actually operate in a technological and psychological way is far beyond what I can present in this limited essay.  Suffice it to say that these powers exist and that they definitely pose a serious threat and danger to us all; and let us not forget that our holy Torah includes within it all we need to know and do about how to combat and neutralize these malevolent forces.

In Pirkei Avot (5:25), the Sage Ben Bag Bag says with regards to the Torah, �Turn it over again and again for everything is in it.�  Torah was never meant to be delegated exclusively to the realm of religion and philosophy.  Torah was meant to be studied and exposed as being a guide to science and technology, including all the laws of the physics of the natural, supernatural and the inner workings of the human mind.

There are numerous forces at work in our natural universe of which modern science only knows of a few.  Every generation modern science becomes more aware of the subtle forces in which we live.  More and more modern science is beginning to sound like ancient mysticism.  In the not-to-distant future, I predict the two paths, the ancient and the future will intersect and merge, bringing upon us a new dawn of civilization.  After all, this was always the purpose of Torah since the beginning.

Therefore, within Torah there have always existed multiple layers of knowledge just waiting to be discovered and explored.  Many of our Sages of old were very well aware of these depths of Torah, yet were bound by oaths of secrecy to conceal this knowledge until such a time when it could be revealed safely, and then only to those select individuals who could handle it.  In every generation there have been Sages well versed in this secret knowledge.  It is they who were (and are) very much on the forefront of combating evil in their communities, especially when that evil is disseminating through the forces of witchcraft and the occult.  As Solomon long ago said, �There is nothing new under the sun.� (Kohelet 1:9).

Rabbi Yisrael ben Eliezer, better known as the Ba�al Shem Tov was one of the last of the European Sages to be a master of this ancient knowledge.  In his day, he fought long and hard against significant malevolent forces and worked hard to bring the secrets of the Torah to the masses in a way and format that the majority could understand and embrace.  This was his mission and the true underlying purpose of the original Hasidic teachings.

We cannot at this time delve into Hasidic history to discuss how most of the schools have lost their original connection to this sacred knowledge.  Suffice it for now to know that while most today are unaware of the ancient teachings, this does not mean that they have become lost.  The teachings are still available, however due to the great influence of the rationalist school even most modern Hasidim are unlearned in this sacred field and are thus most unqualified to deal with spiritual issues.

Although lost to the majority, the teachings are still well preserved by the minority, and this group transcends all borders of ethnicity, language and culture.  True Sages still reside amongst the Jewish people, and their identities, like their powers remain a well-guarded secret.

With all this being said, and the forces of evil being what they are, we can now discuss one of the teachings of the Ba�al Shem Tov and learn his comments on the above story related in the Gemara about how witchcraft is confronted using a holy Name from the Torah.

The Ba�al Shem Tov comments that the Torah verse itself that condemns one who practices witchcraft to death contains the secret Name that when used properly can neutralize the witchcraft itself.  The Torah (Ex. 22:17) states, �M�kha�shefa Lo T�hayeh� (a witch shall not live).  One who knows how to recite this verse with the proper intent, devotion and meditations shall break the powers of witchcraft.

Regardless of the doubts of skeptics, witchcraft does pose a serious threat to all today and its powers have been unleashed upon the masses from sources best left unmentioned.  Nonetheless, in order to provide spiritual protection for those who seek it, I will now discuss in brief how from this verse can be extracted a powerful holy Name that when used properly and combined with a lifestyle of holiness and health can protect one from even the most malevolent of spiritual forces.

The initial letters (Reshei Tevot) of the three words of this verse are Mem, Lamed and Tav.  These three letters combine to form a holy Name, pronounced with the vowels as they appear in the verse itself; shva, holam, shva.  When this Name is combined with the Name Havaya (YKVK) written with the vowels of �pituhei hotam,� we have a seven-letter combination that can be meditated upon and projected upon a source of evil, the results being the nullification of that evil.

This then was the secret of the Ba�al Shem Tov.  He was master at discovering and using these holy forces of Torah knowledge to combat ignorance and evil.  He taught his students well and his teachings survive to this day and are available to all who wish to study them in the original Hebrew.  The Ba�al Shem Tov is only one of many who have distributed this sacred knowledge.  Other Sages today still invoke Heavenly powers and are active in protecting the masses.  Yet, regardless of whom they are or what they do, we too can participate in this holy work, even as the Ba�al Shem Tov taught the masses to do.

The Ba�al Shem Tov taught us about the powers of the human mind.  While we cannot create physical reality around us, we can indeed control our perceptions of it within ourselves.  The great power to overcome any malevolent influence already resides within us.  HaShem has given to each of us this latent power.  All we need is the knowledge of Torah to enable us to recognize it.

A holy Name is not magic, neither for that matter is witchcraft.  In reality, there is no such thing as magic.  All there is are technologies of the mind unknown to most people.  These forces are and have been known for millennia to those who wish to manipulate others and to those who wish to protect others from such manipulations.  One who learns the disciplines and inner workings of the mind will realize these latent powers.  One of good character will use these innate human powers for good, others of lesser character will use these powers for selfish gains; this is evil.

The Ba�al Shem Tov therefore taught the importance of good character and how by trusting in HaShem with childlike simplicity one can tap these inner powers of the mind and thus enable them to protect one from any outside source of unconscious influence.  Therefore, the simple initial letters of a verse when combined with HaShem�s holy Name should be enough of a reminder to anyone that HaShem is in charge and that He has the power to nullify any force of evil.

Reciting the Name or the letters is not the way this spiritual technology works.  This is why we do not provide a formula, a prayer or an invocation.  Nullifying influences upon the mind is performed by a simple mental exercise; verbal recitations have little or no power in this regards.  What you think matters most.  What you say matters little.

The power of the Torah is so profound; it takes us into the inner most recess of the mind and at the same time enables us to explore the most outer limits of all reality.  One who learns these lessons well will have embraced the essence of all the secrets of the Torah regardless of their forms within the teachings of the Kabbalah or Hasidut.
-------------------------------------
Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok

Offline edu

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2011, 09:00:35 AM »
For All those that read Hebrew Here's a source that Rabbi Saadia Gaon clearly did believe in the resurrection of the dead according to the simple meaning of the term.
http://www.daat.ac.il/chazal/maamar.asp?id=260

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2011, 03:19:44 AM »
For All those that read Hebrew Here's a source that Rabbi Saadia Gaon clearly did believe in the resurrection of the dead according to the simple meaning of the term.
http://www.daat.ac.il/chazal/maamar.asp?id=260

Of course he did!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kaballa true or false?
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2011, 03:25:45 AM »
I am sorry but that is not what I am trying to do. I have heard a lot of Rabbis and I am sure that I have heard the Gaons name mentioned. I never said I did not hear of him. I try to learn from all Rabbis because as Chaim said, there are 70 faces of Torah and it is said that all of them are correct.

I am not negating or challenging what you are saying. Sometimes I feel like you think I am competing against you and it is never my intention to do that. I hope that our conversations will yield the truth and enlighten all Jews and gentiles to what is truth.

I apologize for appearing to insult the Gaon.


Whether you have "heard of him" is not really at issue.

Beyond that I will merely state that perhaps many rabbis do not teach about the era of the gaonim ( or the saboraim for that matter) but these are the scholars who took over from the amoraim and continued the mesora to the period of rishonim.  We are talking about a period of maybe 400-600 years give or take (I forget now precisely when the amoraim ended), of Jewish history if we include saboraic and gaonic periods.  And these are responsible for the final crafting of the talmud as we have it today.  Its worth looking into.  I am sure Rabbi Berel Wein has some good material on this period.