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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Lutherans
« on: August 13, 2011, 10:14:30 PM »
Michelle Bachman is Lutheran.
How do Jews feel about Lutherans?
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 10:46:10 PM »
Michelle Bachman is Lutheran.
How do Jews feel about Lutherans?


Luther was a friendlier Christian towards the Jews until they refused to convert,then he became a rabid anti-Semite.  I dont think Jews who knew this history could be fond of a person whose leader did everything in his power to hurt their forefathers when they refused to convert

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 11:02:19 PM »
If I remember correctly, didn't Hitler claim a lot of his ideas in Mein Kampf from Lutherans teachings?

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2011, 05:39:05 AM »
Jews who know their history don't have allot of respect to Martin Luther, to say the least. But I wouldn't go as far as saying than anything with the word Luther is evil. It's not like the Catholics have been much nicer to us over the history. And still I don't think Jews rule out anyone just because he is Catholic.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 07:22:57 AM »
Bachmann seems to be pro-Israel. Not all Lutherans are anti-Semites.

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 12:29:52 PM »
There is alot of false doctrine in many churches and specifically in the Lutheran church. Martin Luther was actually a jewish anti-semite.   True Christians support, and defend Israel and the Jewish people.   

Offline muman613

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 12:59:39 PM »
Martin Luther {Yemach Shemo} was the forefather of much of the antisemitism of Europe. His volumes of work on denigrating Jews and calling for their blood are the cornerstone of Nazi and Christian antisemitism:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther#Anti-Judaism_and_antisemitism

Anti-Judaism and antisemitism

Luther wrote about the Jews throughout his career, though only a few of his works dealt with them directly.[192] Luther rarely encountered Jews during his life, but his attitudes reflected a theological and cultural tradition which saw Jews as a rejected people guilty of the murder of Christ, and he lived within a local community that had expelled Jews some ninety years earlier.[193] He considered the Jews blasphemers and liars because they rejected the divinity of Jesus, whereas Christians believed Jesus was the Messiah.[194] At the same time, Luther believed that all human beings who set themselves against God shared one and the same guilt.[195] As early as 1516, Luther wrote, "...[M]any people are proud with marvelous stupidity when they call the Jews dogs, evildoers, or whatever they like, while they too, and equally, do not realize who or what they are in the sight of God".[196] In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew, but only with the aim of converting them to Christianity.[197] When his efforts at conversion failed, he grew increasingly bitter toward them.[198]

Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[199] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people": he referred to them with violent, vile language.[200][201] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time".[202] In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder.[203] Luther's "recommendations" for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the "sharp mercy" of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to "false gods".[204]

Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[205] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[206] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[205] Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[207]

Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany.[208] According to the prevailing view among historians,[209] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[210] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the National Socialists' attacks on Jews.[211] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[212] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[213] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[214] On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint."[215] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[216] According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.[217]


Judensau on the Wittenberg Church, built 1300–1470.
At the heart of scholars' debate about Luther's influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists. Some scholars see Luther's influence as limited, and the Nazis' use of his work as opportunistic. Biographer Martin Brecht points out that "There is a world of difference between his belief in salvation and a racial ideology. Nevertheless, his misguided agitation had the evil result that Luther fatefully became one of the 'church fathers' of anti-Semitism and thus provided material for the modern hatred of the Jews, cloaking it with the authority of the Reformer."[218] Johannes Wallmann argues that Luther's writings against the Jews were largely ignored in the 18th and 19th centuries, and that there was no continuity between Luther's thought and Nazi ideology.[219] Uwe Siemon-Netto agreed, arguing that it was because the Nazis were already anti-Semites that they revived Luther's work.[220][221] Hans J. Hillerbrand agreed that to focus on Luther was to adopt an essentially ahistorical perspective of Nazi antisemitism that ignored other contributory factors in German history.[222] Similarly, Roland Bainton, noted church historian and Luther biographer, wrote "One could wish that Luther had died before ever [On the Jews and Their Lies] was written. His position was entirely religious and in no respect racial."[223][224]
Other scholars argue that, even if his views were merely anti-Judaic, their violence lent a new element to the standard Christian suspicion of Judaism. Ronald Berger writes that Luther is credited with "Germanizing the Christian critique of Judaism and establishing anti-Semitism as a key element of German culture and national identity."[225] Paul Rose argues that he caused a "hysterical and demonizing mentality" about Jews to enter German thought and discourse, a mentality that might otherwise have been absent.[226]
Since the 1980s, Lutheran Church denominations have repudiated Martin Luther's statements against the Jews and have rejected the use of them to incite hatred against Lutherans.[227][228]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline mord

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »
Martin Luther {Yemach Shemo} was the forefather of much of the antisemitism of Europe. His volumes of work on denigrating Jews and calling for their blood are the cornerstone of Nazi and Christian antisemitism:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther#Anti-Judaism_and_antisemitism

Anti-Judaism and antisemitism

Luther wrote about the Jews throughout his career, though only a few of his works dealt with them directly.[192] Luther rarely encountered Jews during his life, but his attitudes reflected a theological and cultural tradition which saw Jews as a rejected people guilty of the murder of Christ, and he lived within a local community that had expelled Jews some ninety years earlier.[193] He considered the Jews blasphemers and liars because they rejected the divinity of Jesus, whereas Christians believed Jesus was the Messiah.[194] At the same time, Luther believed that all human beings who set themselves against G-d shared one and the same guilt.[195] As early as 1516, Luther wrote, "...[M]any people are proud with marvelous stupidity when they call the Jews dogs, evildoers, or whatever they like, while they too, and equally, do not realize who or what they are in the sight of G-d".[196] In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew, but only with the aim of converting them to Christianity.[197] When his efforts at conversion failed, he grew increasingly bitter toward them.[198]

Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[199] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people": he referred to them with violent, vile language.[200][201] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time".[202] In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder.[203] Luther's "recommendations" for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the "sharp mercy" of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to "false gods".[204]

Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[205] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[206] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[205] Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[207]

Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany.[208] According to the prevailing view among historians,[209] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[210] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the National Socialists' attacks on Jews.[211] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[212] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[213] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[214] On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint."[215] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[216] According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.[217]


Judensau on the Wittenberg Church, built 1300–1470.
At the heart of scholars' debate about Luther's influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists. Some scholars see Luther's influence as limited, and the Nazis' use of his work as opportunistic. Biographer Martin Brecht points out that "There is a world of difference between his belief in salvation and a racial ideology. Nevertheless, his misguided agitation had the evil result that Luther fatefully became one of the 'church fathers' of anti-Semitism and thus provided material for the modern hatred of the Jews, cloaking it with the authority of the Reformer."[218] Johannes Wallmann argues that Luther's writings against the Jews were largely ignored in the 18th and 19th centuries, and that there was no continuity between Luther's thought and Nazi ideology.[219] Uwe Siemon-Netto agreed, arguing that it was because the Nazis were already anti-Semites that they revived Luther's work.[220][221] Hans J. Hillerbrand agreed that to focus on Luther was to adopt an essentially ahistorical perspective of Nazi antisemitism that ignored other contributory factors in German history.[222] Similarly, Roland Bainton, noted church historian and Luther biographer, wrote "One could wish that Luther had died before ever [On the Jews and Their Lies] was written. His position was entirely religious and in no respect racial."[223][224]
Other scholars argue that, even if his views were merely anti-Judaic, their violence lent a new element to the standard Christian suspicion of Judaism. Ronald Berger writes that Luther is credited with "Germanizing the Christian critique of Judaism and establishing anti-Semitism as a key element of German culture and national identity."[225] Paul Rose argues that he caused a "hysterical and demonizing mentality" about Jews to enter German thought and discourse, a mentality that might otherwise have been absent.[226]
Since the 1980s, Lutheran Church denominations have repudiated Martin Luther's statements against the Jews and have rejected the use of them to incite hatred against Lutherans.[227][228]
And Luther liked the Jews you should see what he wrote about everyone else :o
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 02:15:38 PM »
Although Rubystars is right that not all Lutherans are anti-Semites, Chaim has said that they should leave that church if they are not like that, and I agree with him.

Offline jbeige

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »
The Lutherans are good people, you can not keep going back thousands of years and say this group of people are no good because they tried to convert the Jews, back then that was the thing to do, get with it people.
How can you keep saying people that belong to these religions today are still like the people that were in their religion thousands of years ago.
If all of you think the Lutherans are that bad I guess Bachmann is an anti-semite and should not be supported.

Offline jbeige

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 03:46:52 PM »
Although Rubystars is right that not all Lutherans are anti-Semites, Chaim has said that they should leave that church if they are not like that, and I agree with him.
Would you leave your religion?  The people can not be responsible for things that happened thousands of years ago.

Offline muman613

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 03:52:45 PM »
The Lutherans are good people, you can not keep going back thousands of years and say this group of people are no good because they tried to convert the Jews, back then that was the thing to do, get with it people.
How can you keep saying people that belong to these religions today are still like the people that were in their religion thousands of years ago.
If all of you think the Lutherans are that bad I guess Bachmann is an anti-semite and should not be supported.

Uhh this was not thousands of years ago... Martin Luther wrote his antisemitic treatises in the late 1500s which is about 500 years ago. And one cannot just let it go because what he did caused Millions of Jews to be exterminated {through stoking the flames of religious antisemitism}.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 03:53:38 PM »
Would you leave your religion?  The people can not be responsible for things that happened thousands of years ago.

The fruit of Martin Luther sprouted only 60+ years ago, within the lifetime of my parents...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 03:55:54 PM »
It is interesting that during my HighSchool years {1980s} I had a best friend who was Estonian. He was one of the smartest people in our highschool class {graduating 2nd in our class} and he was a Lutheran.... My mother never really understood why we were friends. We drifted apart and have not spoken in many, many years.... I don't think all Lutherans are evil but their religion surely caused Jews to suffer at the hands of evil monsters...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 09:13:44 PM »
Lutheranism is not a whole separate religion, it is one denomination of Christianity. The older and more traditional branches of Lutheranism (there are several kinds) are in fact very similar to Catholics. Chaim didn't mean that Lutherans should stop being Christians, just that they ought to find a denomination that is not anti-Semitic, of which there are many.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2011, 10:05:53 PM »
Debbie,

I think you made a typo:  Luther was definitely not Jewish. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2011, 10:25:12 PM »
Debbie,

I think you made a typo:  Luther was definitely not Jewish.  

Yes I caught that one too... It seemed she said he was a 'Jewish antisemite' but he most certainly was not Jewish... I think it was due to the misunderstanding that the word Antisemite basically means 'Jew hater' by itself.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline t_h_j

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Re: Lutherans
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 11:13:20 PM »
Lutheranism is not a whole separate religion, it is one denomination of Christianity. The older and more traditional branches of Lutheranism (there are several kinds) are in fact very similar to Catholics. Chaim didn't mean that Lutherans should stop being Christians, just that they ought to find a denomination that is not anti-Semitic, of which there are many.

Lutheranism today is not anti semitic