Organ Donation

[Dr. Dan]

The last thread was locked so i guess we can continue discussing it here.

LIke i was saying, in my opinion, for certain types of organs...after one dies, I would feel it should be ok, according to Jewish law to donate when possible in that you would not only be saving one life but generations of lives.

[Sarah]

But what about the fact that a body should be buried and allowed to rest in peace......i have mixed feelings about this issue. On one hand it sounds like a good thing to do but there are a one too many catches.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If you do not mind my asking why was the original thread locked? The controversial stuff (Babylonian Jew's posts and the debate on concubines) had already passed.

[jdl4ever]

To be honest, I think it should be OK in Judaism to donate certain organs when you die.  I don't understand why the Rabbis are against it.  I understand why you can't donate everything since when you die the ancient custom is to dip you into the ritual bath and you have to be in one piece for this to happen, but I don't understand why they don't want you to donate a few organs when you die, this can save many lives.  The Rabbis allow you to donate organs when you are alive like a kidney or a lung or a piece of your liver and they say it's not only allowed but it's a Mitzvah. 

[MasterWolf1]

Being that I am now Jewish I wouldn't know but, as for me personally I don't see anything wrong.  God forbid your time comes and you have a pretty good heart of kidney and you can save someone elses life with a vital organ I think its very nobel.  Never know someone you love maybe in that need.  It is like blood donation the way I see it.  The best gift of life anyone can give to someone else is to save another life.

[Daniel]

Being that I am now Jewish I wouldn't know but, as for me personally I don't see anything wrong.  G-d forbid your time comes and you have a pretty good heart of kidney and you can save someone elses life with a vital organ I think its very nobel.  Never know someone you love maybe in that need.  It is like blood donation the way I see it.  The best gift of life anyone can give to someone else is to save another life.

I fully agree with you on this. I plan on making anything and everything that could be of benefit to science and others available.

[jdl4ever]

You shouldn't donate everything, since your body and its parts may not go to where you think it will go.  Take one trip to my medical school's anatomy lab and you'll change your mind really fast. 

[Daniel]

You shouldn't donate everything, since your body and its parts may not go to where you think it will go.  Take one trip to my medical school's anatomy lab and you'll change your mind really fast. 

Is it going to hurt? No matter where our body parts may go, from a human emotional standpoint, it would be tough to feel comfortable about where our parts might go. But it can still benefit science and other people, right?

[Dr. Dan]

You shouldn't donate everything, since your body and its parts may not go to where you think it will go.  Take one trip to my medical school's anatomy lab and you'll change your mind really fast. 

jdlforver, i know what you mean....i know about these anatomy labs...

but for Jews, I do feel that certain organs, if one wishes to, shoudl be donated if it is going directly to save someone's life..for it will save millions more generations and that is a HUUUUUUUGE mitzva!

A Jew to donate his/her body for anatomy lab....i think that's a bad idea. I don't think Jews should do that. Any nonJew can ask their spiritual leader to what is right.

[jdl4ever]

Yeah, if you donate your body to science they can do whatever they want to it like inject the arteries with plastic and put your body in a vat of acid to dissolve everything but the plastic mold of the arteries.  I don't see how this is of any significant benefit to science.  They can also pull out all the bones and make a permanent skeleton out of it.  They also can put parts of it in jars for everyone to view or saw you in a 32 cross sections so I can study you at my medical school.  Just visit my anatomy lab and you will change your mind about donating your whole body to science, it is kind of gross.  Although they can use it to save lives as well so it is your choice and I think you have a choice of donating it to science or letting the hospital use parts of it to save people for the non-Jews here.  I suggest not doing the former one since I think it is gross.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Organ donor cards..."

Recently, an acquaintance was attempting to persuade me to check "organ donor" on my driver's license application.

I told him no...something about the whole idea of "first come first serve" with my guts seemed wrong.

He cajoled and cajoled; finally telling me that the local Orthodox Rabbi insisted that Jews must do this to help humanity.

I didn't buy it.

Then, six months later, my friend was broadsided on the 110 by a hit-and-run illegal Mexican alien who was apparently DUI.

Badly injured, and knocked completely unconscious, he forced himself to regain his senses, because he heard Latino accented whispering and the sounds of his car glove compartment being opened.

In terrible pain, and unable to open his eyes, he heard the Hispanic cop say "Leesten!"..."Hees eyes r mine, man!"..."chyu' unnerstand, man?"..."mine!"

The other cop pulled his wristwatch off his arm, saying "No man!"...No man!"...Doze eyes feeefty dollars eeach, man!"..."One of dem's mine man!"...Eyes good money, man!"...and he then started to gouge out the eyes of the incapacitated driver, looking all around to make sure no other motorists could see what he was doing.

My friend knew he had to make a valiant effort if he wanted to remain alive and in one piece, so he forced himself to start murmering "...I'm not dead"..."I'm not dead"..."I'm alive"..."I'm alive"..."Can't you hear me?"..."Please!"....

The first cop snarled back at him "Chyu worth a' lot more money, dead, man!"..."Chyu eyes gon' make me good money, man!"..."Chyu jes' think dat' chyu alive!"..."I keeeel you!"...

The driver blacked out as the cop's gloved hands throttled his throat.

The last thing he remembers before the Hwy Patrol arrived with an ambulance and rescued him, was the cop's Latino accent screaming over and over "Die, gringo!"..."Die!"... as he strangled him in hopes to gouge his eyes out and sell them to local hospital deep freeze.

After a brief investigation, both of the Hispanic cops were fully reinstated--the police commission determined "Both officers reacted to the injured driver in a correct and proper manner."

[Dr. Dan]

Yeah, if you donate your body to science they can do whatever they want to it like inject the arteries with plastic and put your body in a vat of acid to dissolve everything but the plastic mold of the arteries.  I don't see how this is of any significant benefit to science.  They can also pull out all the bones and make a permanent skeleton out of it.  They also can put parts of it in jars for everyone to view or saw you in a 32 cross sections so I can study you at my medical school.  Just visit my anatomy lab and you will change your mind about donating your whole body to science, it is kind of gross.  Although they can use it to save lives as well so it is your choice and I think you have a choice of donating it to science or letting the hospital use parts of it to save people for the non-Jews here.  I suggest not doing the former one since I think it is gross.

i'm just talkign about donating internal organs to save peoples' lives.

[Dr. Dan]

Re:  "...Organ donor cards..."

Recently, an acquaintance was attempting to persuade me to check "organ donor" on my driver's license application.

I told him no...something about the whole idea of "first come first serve" with my guts seemed wrong.

He cajoled and cajoled; finally telling me that the local Orthodox Rabbi insisted that Jews must do this to help humanity.

I didn't buy it.

Then, six months later, my friend was broadsided on the 110 by a hit-and-run illegal Mexican alien who was apparently DUI.

Badly injured, and knocked completely unconscious, he forced himself to regain his senses, because he heard Latino accented whispering and the sounds of his car glove compartment being opened.

In terrible pain, and unable to open his eyes, he heard the Hispanic cop say "Leesten!"..."Hees eyes r mine, man!"..."chyu' unnerstand, man?"..."mine!"

The other cop pulled his wristwatch off his arm, saying "No man!"...No man!"...Doze eyes feeefty dollars eeach, man!"..."One of dem's mine man!"...Eyes good money, man!"...and he then started to gouge out the eyes of the incapacitated driver, looking all around to make sure no other motorists could see what he was doing.

My friend knew he had to make a valiant effort if he wanted to remain alive and in one piece, so he forced himself to start murmering "...I'm not dead"..."I'm not dead"..."I'm alive"..."I'm alive"..."Can't you hear me?"..."Please!"....

The first cop snarled back at him "Chyu worth a' lot more money, dead, man!"..."Chyu eyes gon' make me good money, man!"..."Chyu jes' think dat' chyu alive!"..."I keeeel you!"...

The driver blacked out as the cop's gloved hands throttled his throat.

The last thing he remembers before the Hwy Patrol arrived with an ambulance and rescued him, was the cop's Latino accent screaming over and over "Die, gringo!"..."Die!"... as he strangled him in hopes to gouge his eyes out and sell them to local hospital deep freeze.

After a brief investigation, both of the Hispanic cops were fully reinstated--the police commission determined "Both officers reacted to the injured driver in a correct and proper manner."

  and here, my friends, is the worste case scenario!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...No matter where our body parts may go, from a human emotional standpoint, it would be tough to feel comfortable about where our parts might go..."

Here's a question or two needing Jewish Wisdom:

A devout Rabbi, wishing to always aid his fellow men, even in death, donates his organs.

His kidneys and liver are transplanted into someone like Ahmadinejad, or Idi Amin.
As a result of their newly gained health, they declare a new national "Death To The Jews" Policy, and succeed in murdering several million Jews and millions more non-Jews.

Short of the organ transplant, the dictators in question would have died immediately.
Has the Rabbi done a good and righteous deed?  He knew not where his organs would be transplanted, but because he wanted to do good, the result was the genocide of his entire family and the families of those he knew and loved.

Because organs are highly prized, with the richest among the world's needy competing with others to pay the most and get the transplants before others do, the doctors involved had a choice of providing the organs free of charge to a young Mexican illegal who was indigent, but instead each earned one-half million dollars accepting Idi Amin's bribes under the table for the organs.  The illegal Mexican died two days later; six months later Idi Amin murdered two million innocents.  The doctors, corrupt with money and drunk with power, both abandoned their wives and families and began running around with young women of ill repute.  They soon abandoned general transplant surgery, and became specialists in procuring organs (no matter the source...dead or alive) and selling them to the most evil of all the world's richest dictators.

So...the good Rabbi did a great mitzvah?  Or unintentionally set off a reaction of heinous immorality and crime by donating his organs "to be used by science"?

[Dr. Dan]

Re:  "...No matter where our body parts may go, from a human emotional standpoint, it would be tough to feel comfortable about where our parts might go..."

Here's a question or two needing Jewish Wisdom:

A devout Rabbi, wishing to always aid his fellow men, even in death, donates his organs.

His kidneys and liver are transplanted into someone like Ahmadinejad, or Idi Amin.
As a result of their newly gained health, they declare a new national "Death To The Jews" Policy, and succeed in murdering several million Jews and millions more non-Jews.

Short of the organ transplant, the dictators in question would have died immediately.
Has the Rabbi done a good and righteous deed?  He knew not where his organs would be transplanted, but because he wanted to do good, the result was the genocide of his entire family and the families of those he knew and loved.

Because organs are highly prized, with the richest among the world's needy competing with others to pay the most and get the transplants before others do, the doctors involved had a choice of providing the organs free of charge to a young Mexican illegal who was indigent, but instead each earned one-half million dollars accepting Idi Amin's bribes under the table for the organs.  The illegal Mexican died two days later; six months later Idi Amin murdered two million innocents.  The doctors, corrupt with money and drunk with power, both abandoned their wives and families and began running around with young women of ill repute.  They soon abandoned general transplant surgery, and became specialists in procuring organs (no matter the source...dead or alive) and selling them to the most evil of all the world's richest dictators.

So...the good Rabbi did a great mitzvah?  Or unintentionally set off a reaction of heinous immorality and crime by donating his organs "to be used by science"?

and what if the opposite?  A righteous rabbi donated his organs to save life and a righteous man like Chaim ben Pesach who was changing the world and killing off all of our enemies..and true hero needed a kidney transplant...and if it hadn't been for that transplant, he woudl have, GD forbid died..but lived to continue to save Israel and the US and Europe...

Or let's just say the transplant saved the life of a regular man who later on went on to have children...and one his children found the cure for cancer!!

I think your point is that medical technology should not go the route for finding cures or saving lives because it might just end up saving the life of an evil person.

My point is that medical technology should be used because it might just end up saving the life of a hero, like Chaim ben Pesach.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...My point is that medical technology should be used because it might just end up saving the life of a hero, like Chaim ben Pesach...."

Good point, but my post was more in the quest for lubab or other Torah scholars to give answers.

Even so, here's another question for you:

Today, medical technology is busy producing chimeras; they're breeding clones in labs to produce actual half-man/half-pig....half-man/half-goat....

The living monster embryos, creatures right out of ancient Greek Mythology, already have been implanted into the wombs of human women, and such monstrosities are now alive in secret hidden laboratories; capable of having their organs harvested so mankind can better survive organ transplants, but also fully capable of having sex with women of all races and breeding races of monster pig-humans, bird-men, etc...

So...if even one righteous man or woman could benefit from medical technology, must we accept medical technology regardless of what it produces and regardless of possible unexpected consequences?

Don't forget.....Dr. Joseph Mengele (may his name be blotted out of the Book of Life) was a medical technologist believing that his research would be of benefit.

Not to mention the fact that abortion is a medical technology so advanced as to allow late-term partial birth abortions!

Your thoughts?

[angryChineseKahanist]

many lives.
The Rabbis allow you to donate organs when
you are alive like a kidney or a lung or a piece of your
liver and they say it's not only allowed but it's a
Mitzvah.

Live organ transplants only?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8tmLvzubP3I

Well, can't you just let the soul pass then donate the organs?

[Daniel]

Yeah, if you donate your body to science they can do whatever they want to it like inject the arteries with plastic and put your body in a vat of acid to dissolve everything but the plastic mold of the arteries.  I don't see how this is of any significant benefit to science.  They can also pull out all the bones and make a permanent skeleton out of it.  They also can put parts of it in jars for everyone to view or saw you in a 32 cross sections so I can study you at my medical school.  Just visit my anatomy lab and you will change your mind about donating your whole body to science, it is kind of gross.  Although they can use it to save lives as well so it is your choice and I think you have a choice of donating it to science or letting the hospital use parts of it to save people for the non-Jews here.  I suggest not doing the former one since I think it is gross.

Wiping our tuchuses is also gross, but it doesn't stop us from doing that *kidding*

Anything involving human organs is going to be gross. But that in itself shouldn't be a reason to do it. If it serves a positive purpose and is not harming anyone, then I don't see a problem with it regardless of the gross factor.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think G-d supports any and all reasonable (i.e. aside from stem-cell Frankenstinian horrors) medical advances to save human life.

[MassuhDGoodName]

What I've been trying to "get at" is this:

Formal Orthodox Rabbinical decisions have been issued for such matters as "how cancer of the prostate is and is not allowed to be medically treated"; the ruling considered to be binding and based entirely on Torah Law.

The onslaught of cloning technologies, allowing man the ability to produce half-human/half-animal beings in laboratories, etc., together with evil industries such as the Red Chinese who execute their dissidents (Christians, Falun-gong, those advocating democracy or criticizing Commuism) by first vivisecting them while they're still alive...having their doctors inject them, harvest their organs, then kill them, and sell the organs from innocent victims to the highest paying hospitals and doctors in the world for use in transplant surgery, all make apparent that Rabbinic rulings have not kept up with rapid technological growth.

The old Rabbinical decisions to encourage organ donations were made at the time that an occasional corneal transplant or liver transplant were done by honest and brilliant pioneering surgeons in legitimate hospitals...

Today, it's an everyday event for a tourist in each and every Third World Country to be unknowingly drugged through their food or drink, and wake up unable to remember anything in their hotel room the next morning, with a huge scar & stitches where their kidney was removed by organ harvesting crime rings who sell stolen organs to unsuspecting medical establishments in the U.S. & elsewhere.

Therefore, I am seeking wisdom from lubab or others.

[Dr. Dan]

Re:  "...My point is that medical technology should be used because it might just end up saving the life of a hero, like Chaim ben Pesach...."

Good point, but my post was more in the quest for lubab or other Torah scholars to give answers.

Even so, here's another question for you:

Today, medical technology is busy producing chimeras; they're breeding clones in labs to produce actual half-man/half-pig....half-man/half-goat....

The living monster embryos, creatures right out of ancient Greek Mythology, already have been implanted into the wombs of human women, and such monstrosities are now alive in secret hidden laboratories; capable of having their organs harvested so mankind can better survive organ transplants, but also fully capable of having sex with women of all races and breeding races of monster pig-humans, bird-men, etc...

So...if even one righteous man or woman could benefit from medical technology, must we accept medical technology regardless of what it produces and regardless of possible unexpected consequences?

Don't forget.....Dr. Joseph Mengele (may his name be blotted out of the Book of Life) was a medical technologist believing that his research would be of benefit.

Not to mention the fact that abortion is a medical technology so advanced as to allow late-term partial birth abortions!

Your thoughts?

I think the notion of the existance of half men/pig and man bear pigs (half man half bear half pig) is silly..

But let's just say for argument's sake these abominations existed...to simply harvest a living life just to have organs..that's unethical...just doesn't seem right to create life just for the purpose of saving lives...soemthign is off about that.

Ok, now let's talk about abortions and using the stem cells of aborted fetuses.  In this country, abortions are not illegal (yet). (I know my opinion on this in this forum will be in the minority also) I believe that the mother has a right to donate stem cells of her aborted fetus...it simply makes sense.  However, it is wrong for women to get pregnant just to abort fetuses for the sake of stem cells.

Now what if it was a halachikly legal abortion? (eg mother will die if she gives birth).  I still believe it s houdl be ok to donate the stem cells of that aborted fetus for the benifit of science. However, I dont' know if my opinion is very Jewish...i would ask several rabbis about their opinion.

Thank goodness, in medicine, there is somethign called ethics.  So when medical technology does come along, just like a sanhedrin int eh state of israel..one needs to exist for medical technology. There are certainly things that are possible to do save millions of lives at the expense of ethics such as cloning..however, there are moral consequences to things like that...

[Dr. Dan]

What I've been trying to "get at" is this:

Formal Orthodox Rabbinical decisions have been issued for such matters as "how cancer of the prostate is and is not allowed to be medically treated"; the ruling considered to be binding and based entirely on Torah Law.

The onslaught of cloning technologies, allowing man the ability to produce half-human/half-animal beings in laboratories, etc., together with evil industries such as the Red Chinese who execute their dissidents (Christians, Falun-gong, those advocating democracy or criticizing Commuism) by first vivisecting them while they're still alive...having their doctors inject them, harvest their organs, then kill them, and sell the organs from innocent victims to the highest paying hospitals and doctors in the world for use in transplant surgery, all make apparent that Rabbinic rulings have not kept up with rapid technological growth.

The old Rabbinical decisions to encourage organ donations were made at the time that an occasional corneal transplant or liver transplant were done by honest and brilliant pioneering surgeons in legitimate hospitals...

Today, it's an everyday event for a tourist in each and every Third World Country to be unknowingly drugged through their food or drink, and wake up unable to remember anything in their hotel room the next morning, with a huge scar & stitches where their kidney was removed by organ harvesting crime rings who sell stolen organs to unsuspecting medical establishments in the U.S. & elsewhere.

Therefore, I am seeking wisdom from lubab or others.

in judaism, you are not allowed to sell your organs...nor are organs allowed to be sold.  Clearly these organ harvesting rings are an obomination and evil... Like any medical procedure, it has to be done ethically...not like what the nazis did to the jews and et al.

[newman]

What I've been trying to "get at" is this:

Formal Orthodox Rabbinical decisions have been issued for such matters as "how cancer of the prostate is and is not allowed to be medically treated"; the ruling considered to be binding and based entirely on Torah Law.

The onslaught of cloning technologies, allowing man the ability to produce half-human/half-animal beings in laboratories, etc., together with evil industries such as the Red Chinese who execute their dissidents (Christians, Falun-gong, those advocating democracy or criticizing Commuism) by first vivisecting them while they're still alive...having their doctors inject them, harvest their organs, then kill them, and sell the organs from innocent victims to the highest paying hospitals and doctors in the world for use in transplant surgery, all make apparent that Rabbinic rulings have not kept up with rapid technological growth.

The old Rabbinical decisions to encourage organ donations were made at the time that an occasional corneal transplant or liver transplant were done by honest and brilliant pioneering surgeons in legitimate hospitals...

Today, it's an everyday event for a tourist in each and every Third World Country to be unknowingly drugged through their food or drink, and wake up unable to remember anything in their hotel room the next morning, with a huge scar & stitches where their kidney was removed by organ harvesting crime rings who sell stolen organs to unsuspecting medical establishments in the U.S. & elsewhere.

Therefore, I am seeking wisdom from lubab or others.

Take a look at Gaza. The "half-human/half animal" creatures are out of the lab!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Dannycookie,
Hate to be the one to inform you of this, but the abominable living being chimeras -- half man/half pig, half woman/half dog, etc...
are at this very moment alive and well here on earth.  They are not "notions".  The armed services as well as legitimate and illegitimate genetics laboratories worldwide have already done this and these things exist.  Some of these monsters have even escaped their laboratory jailcells and found their way out into the world, where they have been spotted by civilians near underground military base laboratories.

[newman]

Dannycookie,
Hate to be the one to inform you of this, but the abominable living being chimeras -- half man/half pig, half woman/half dog, etc...
are at this very moment alive and well here on earth.  They are not "notions".  The armed services as well as legitimate and illegitimate genetics laboratories worldwide have already done this and these things exist.  Some of these monsters have even escaped their laboratory jailcells and found their way out into the world, where they have been spotted by civilians near underground military base laboratories.

WOW! any web pics?