Disputes between ultra-orthodox and secular Jews more frequent in Beit Shemesh

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Does anyone have a link describing, impartially, what the original incident in Beit Shemesh was about?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Does anyone have a link describing, impartially, what the original incident in Beit Shemesh was about?

 their were many incidents but this happened in August-September (with links to even earlier as well).
 http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/terrorism-in-bet-shemesh.html

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Didn't Chaim see these videos and conclude that there was provocation in them?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Didn't Chaim see these videos and conclude that there was provocation in them?

 I do not know what he did or did not see, I know he commented on the first part of the first video, but at last at the time did not know the background that was going on. But either way if he says that its a provocation, I do not agree with him on this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chaim is not Charedi at all and he has many differences with them. If he is more or less taking their side, don't you think he has reason to?

[Dr. Dan]

Here could be a reason why chaim takes the side of the charedi over the media.

Shimoen peressite is rallying all non ultra orthodox Israelis against this group.  Just like the housing crisis, the fake right and evil left are taking control of this topic to unite the majority of Israelis. 

It will not surprise me if the same methods are used to cause support for expulsion of Jews from yehuda vi shomron.

It is important to expose the evil media.  However in this instance, we should not condone so called "religious" extremism by these Jews who destroy the beauty of true Torah Judaism.  I'm just not sure where chaim stands on that issue.  As Jews, how far is it appropriate to create a fence from the Torah.  Maybe muman, Kwrbt, and tag can answer this question as well.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim is not Charedi at all and he has many differences with them. If he is more or less taking their side, don't you think he has reason to?

Personally, I think he is reacting defensively to defend "all charedim" as a group because they are being attacked in whole by the media.  But what thugs and mafiosos have done in RBS and other places (for example, Manny's bookstore), is not representative of all haredim.  And so if he is by extension defending the thugs too, since he feels haredim are being attacked, I think he is making an incorrect assumption about what is taking place here and making a mistake.  

Something along the lines of this:   He seems to be saying - the media are once again attacking haredim unfairly, therefore their claims are false and inflammatory and shouldn't be given credibility because it causes more strife among Jews.

But I am saying :   The media are using REAL EVENTS, that actually took place, by a small number of so-called "zealots" and using those to paint an entire community of haredim and then attack haredim.    Of course we should not give any credibility to an attack on haredim as a whole.   But the original events really did take place and are a real problem.  And the thugs who did them (they happen to be people who identify as haredi, but I don't really care what they call themselves and would condemn their behavior regardless of label), need to be stopped and controlled because they are getting out of hand and causing trauma for religious Jews and secular Jewish neighbors.

Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!).   They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Compare it to this-
  Suppose their were people who called themselves "Kahanists" yett did things contrary to the teaching of Rav Kahane. For example, suppose these "Kahanists" were to spitt at Breslov Hassidic kids telling them that they need to shave off their payos.
 Then the media comes in and reports on these "Kahanists". Would you say, well the media is against them and they happen to call themselves Kahanists soo we need to support them (these Kahanists by name)? Or would you say that these people are wrong, they do not represent Kahanists and are going contrary to the teachings of Rav Kahane and must be fought against.

[Dr. Dan]

Tag and Kwrbt..bottom line we are a movement that tells the truth.  And the justice we hope for is even handed.  We condemn evil behavior.

[cjd]

Personally, I think he is reacting defensively to defend "all charedim" as a group because they are being attacked in whole by the media.  But what thugs and mafiosos have done in RBS and other places (for example, Manny's bookstore), is not representative of all haredim.  And so if he is by extention defending the thugs too, since he feels haredim are being attacked, I think he is making an incorrect assumption about what is taking place here and making a mistake.   

Something along the lines of this:   He seems to be saying - the media are once again attacking haredim unfairly, therefore their claims are false and inflammatory and shouldn't be given credibility because it causes more strife among Jews.

But I am saying :   The media are using REAL EVENTS, that actually took place, by a small number of so-called "zealots" and using those to paint an entire community of haredim and then attack haredim.    Of course we should not give any credibility to an attack on haredim as a whole.   But the original events really did take place and are a real problem.  And the thugs who did them (they happen to be people who identify as haredi, but I don't really care what they call themselves and would condemn their behavior regardless of label), need to be stopped and controlled because they are getting out of hand and causing trauma for religious Jews and secular Jewish neighbors.

Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!).   They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.

I agree... The video posted yesterday left me very ill at ease... As I watched the little kids walk by in the video with all that caterwauling going on it made me quite upset... Someone should grasp the bull by the horns and put a stop to protests that involve little children... I though the main problem Israel had is Arab influx not grade school children who dress like children.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It will not surprise me if the same methods are used to cause support for expulsion of Jews from yehuda vi shomron.

You see that the Israeli nightly news was able to get the whole country against the owners of the Peace House by painting them as "religious zealots" after all. They aren't stupid. They know that most secular Israelis don't have a high opinion of religion and are not easy to be swayed against it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

You see that the Israeli nightly news was able to get the whole country against the owners of the Peace House by painting them as "religious zealots" after all. They aren't stupid. They know that most secular Israelis don't have a high opinion of religion and are not easy to be swayed against it.

 What Peace house? I don't understand.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!).   They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.

So basically you are saying that there is a small cultist fringe of Charedim.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What Peace house? I don't understand.

The house that was legally purchased from an Arab, and then the Arab denied making the sale and demanded it back, and the Israeli courts ruled that it must be given back to the Arabs. The Israeli media painted the homeowners and the protesters who came out to support them as fanatical religious zealots and so most Israelis agreed that the home should be taken away from them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So basically you are saying that there is a small cultist fringe of Charedim.

There definitely is.  I wouldn't call it 'cultist' cause I don't know that they have an actual ringleader or authority figure, but they are definitely nuts and behave accordingly.

[muman613]

The house that was legally purchased from an Arab, and then the Arab denied making the sale and demanded it back, and the Israeli courts ruled that it must be given back to the Arabs. The Israeli media painted the homeowners and the protesters who came out to support them as fanatical religious zealots and so most Israelis agreed that the home should be taken away from them.

I found several references to 'Peace House' on A7...

Here is one story which discusses it:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135527#.Tvp2ckRSQYo

Hevron's Jews Confident in Legal Struggle for 'Peace House'
Hevron Jewish Community is preparing for the return of the Beit HaShalom (Peace House) building to Jewish hands. First hearing was this week.


The Jewish Community of Hevron has begun its legal battle, preparing for the return of the large building known as Beit HaShalom (Peace House) to Jewish hands. The first hearing was this week.

With the loss, a year ago, of the political battle to retain the Jewish-purchased building, the Hevron residents have moved on to the judicial front in the Jerusalem District Court, and are confident that their efforts will bear fruit – though it may take a while.

The story began in March 2007, when 200 Jews entered the 4-story, 3,600-sq.-meter Arab-built structure in the City of the Patriarchs. It had been purchased two years earlier, after a long process, by Morris Abraham of Brooklyn, New York, for $700,000.

The building overlooks the strategic road between Hevron and Kiryat Arba, named Worshippers’ Path in honor of the parade of Jews walking back and forth to the Machpelah Cave each week for Sabbath prayers.

After nearly two years of legal maneuvers, during which the residents were prevented from making minimal repairs to the building such as putting on windows, the Supreme Court finally ruled that the building must be emptied of the Jews until the issue of ownership could be resolved.

The ruling was harshly criticized as having ignored critical evidence, and even retired District Court Judge Uri Struzman – whose previous ruling was cited as a precedent by the Supreme Court justices – said that his precedent should have led to the opposite conclusion. “It is not at all strange that the settlers are screaming that justice has not been served, and that the judges’ political opinions were the basis for their decision," Struzman wrote.

Now, however, the ball is back in the courts, and the Hevron residents are confident. Miriam Fleishman, who gave birth to a daughter while living there, says, “We have hired Attorney Ze’ev Sharf, who specializes in cases of this nature, and we are convinced that we will win. At the first hearing, held this week, the judge ruled that the trial itself will begin in 45 days, and all testimonies and evidence will be presented to the court. We have written, audio and video testimony that we purchased the building legally.”

In addition, the Arab seller has changed his story three times. He first claimed that he never sold it, then said he sold the home but didn’t receive money for it, and finally ended up claiming that he sold the building and received payment, but he wants to retroactively cancel the sale.

Fleishman says that most of the Jewish belongings that had served the occupants are still there: “The army sealed up the building, and our property, such as beds, closets and the like, are still there. The army, too, knows that this is a strategic spot, and that’s why they are stationed there.”

The Hevron Jewish Community is experienced in long, arduous campaigns – legal and otherwise – to retrieve Jewish-owned property that has been confiscated from it, either by Arabs or by the army. “The Eternal People are not afraid of a long journey” is one of the principles that governs their pioneering lives.

[Circus Boy]

CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT  Zev Brenner Show
Date:    Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM   
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL

RABBI YONAH METZGER

“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”

ON

TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com