Israel > Save Israel
In Jerusalem, women are voiceless at a decidedly womanly event ????
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 12, 2012, 01:59:05 AM ---
Will you be attending?
--- End quote ---
No... If I were in Israel I would just to find out what their opinion of this attention is... But I am stuck out in California with a ton of work to do, no time to travel...
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Btw, there are probably zero men in the entire world who have never heard a woman speak or never spoken with a woman other than their wife or daughter. So how can anyone actually claim that that is one opinion which is followed. I have yet to see even one person on earth who really follows that opinion. Certainly not the crowd of haredim who will be attending this event.
It is my interpretation that it is simply a cultural stringency adopted by many haredim and many haredi societies/communities that women do not generally give talks publicly to mixed audiences, and men do not attend events with women speakers. That is what underlies this whole issue. A stringency within modesty, which has become common practice and a cultural norm amongst haredim in society. Not some obscure "man d'amar" or "hava ameena" within halacha that suddenly everyone claims to follow which no one actually follows and no poskim really rule in favor of.
for what it's worth...
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 12, 2012, 02:07:06 AM ---Again I was trying a little humor... But apparently not at the right time... I was just saying that Rabbi Kahanes Torah is not being kept at this time... I would be interested in any insight on what he thought about the issue of separation...
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?
But many people went to him for rulings and followed his psakim, and still do follow rulings of his to this day.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 12, 2012, 02:11:25 AM ---?
But many people went to him for rulings and followed his psakim, and still do follow rulings of his to this day.
--- End quote ---
Yes, this is true but I am talking about a majority of Jews... Do you think Kahanists are a significant portion of the Jewish population... Believe me I try to spread the word of Rabbi Kahane to everyone. Just last Shabbat I had a few moments alone with my Rabbi when I discussed Rabbi Kahane with him. My Rabbi {who is a Chabad rabbi} had only good words for Rabbi Kahane.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 12, 2012, 02:10:15 AM ---Btw, there are probably zero men in the entire world who have never heard a woman speak or never spoken with a woman other than their wife or daughter. So how can anyone actually claim that that is one opinion which is followed. I have yet to see even one person on earth who really follows that opinion. Certainly not the crowd of haredim who will be attending this event.
It is my interpretation that it is simply a cultural stringency adopted by many haredim and many haredi societies/communities that women do not generally give talks publicly to mixed audiences, and men do not attend events with women speakers. That is what underlies this whole issue. A stringency within modesty, which has become common practice and a cultural norm amongst haredim in society. Not some obscure "man d'amar" or "hava ameena" within halacha that suddenly everyone claims to follow which no one actually follows and no poskim really rule in favor of.
for what it's worth...
--- End quote ---
I agree that I don't expect everyone to try to keep these. I don't intend to try to force it on anyone. My point is that if this is their way and nobody except the media have a problem with it, then I say let it be.
The best advice comes from our Shema in the Third Paragraph:
--- Quote ---And G-d said to Moses saying: Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them that they are to make themselves tzitzit on the corners of their garments, throughout their generations. And they are to place upon the tzitzit of each corner a thread of blue (techelet). And it shall constitute tzitzit for you, that you may see it and remember all the mitzvot of G-d and perform them; and not explore after your heart and after your eyes after which you stray. So that you may remember and perform all My mitzvot; and be holy to your G-d. I am G-d, your G-d, Who has removed you from the land of Egypt to be a G-d to you. I am G-d your G-d... it is true
--- End quote ---
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2008/parsha/rwil_shlach.html
--- Quote ---"'You shall guard yourself (vnishmarta) against any evil thought' (Devarim 23:10). A man may not gaze upon a beautiful woman even if she is unmarried" (Avoda Zara 20a).
Why isn't the violation of "v'lo sasuru - you shall not stray" mentioned here? The Smak (30) answers that "v'lo sasuru" applies only when one stares for the purpose of an immoral act. If one enjoys the beauty of a woman, but has no intention to commit an immoral act, he violates "vnishmarta". This distinction is reached independently by the Igros Moshe (Even Hoezer 1:69)[3]. However, the Mishna Berura (75:7) states that staring at a woman to enjoy her beauty is a violation of "v'lo sasuru". Perhaps this is the Rambam's position as well (see Sefer Hamitzvos, Lo Saaseh 47), that one who is pulled after physical lusts and a preoccupation with them violates v'lo sasuru, even if no sinful act is contemplated.
III
"If women are not properly dressed near a river, one who has an alternate route but chooses the river route is termed a rasha. If there is no alternative, he must force himself to avert his gaze"(Bava Basra 57a).
This passage has tremendous relevance nowadays, especially in the summer months. Men must avoid, if possible, walking in places where women are not dressed properly. When a man must walk in such a place to reach his destination, every effort must be made to avoid focusing on forbidden sights. Unfortunately, in most workplaces this vigilance must be maintained all day. (This vigilance includes avoiding prohibited internet sites.)
It is important to note that women are also included in the prohibition of v'lo sasuru if they gaze upon men with the intention to sin (Igros Moshe, ibid.). In addition, women may not wear clothing that reveals their upper arms or thighs (Mishna Berura 75:2), and certainly not any part of their torsos. The ubiquitousness of low-cut garments does not permit one to wear them. Tight-fitting clothing, which accentuates a woman's figure inappropriately, is strictly prohibited (see Az nidberu by Rav Binyomin Zilber). These laws reflect the requirement of tznius (modesty), as well as the interdiction of placing a michshol (stumbling block) in the path of men. In choosing their wardrobe, women must summon the strength to be discerning, and not to slavishly follow current fashion.
Other methods of arousing the male sexual desire are also forbidden, and can produce disastrous results. The Gemara (Yoma 9b) relates that women would entice young men by releasing perfume in their presence. This was a cause of the churban Beis Hamikdash. Even excess conversation, which can lead to levity, can be disastrous (see Avos 1:5).
In sum, both men and women must focus on resisting these behaviors, so typical of general society, and must govern their thoughts, sights, words/conversations, wardrobes, and deeds according to Torah law.
"If one sees a provocative sight (dvar erva) and does not allow his eyes to enjoy it, he merits to see the Shechina, as it is written, (Yeshaya 33:15 - 17) 'One who shuts his eyes from seeing evil shall dwell in heights and see the King in His splendor'" (Derech Eretz Rabba, 1). If we control ourselves, and do not stray after our hearts and eyes, we will be rewarded for keeping this difficult, yet critical, mitzva.
--- End quote ---
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