Author Topic: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?  (Read 3610 times)

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Offline muman613

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Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« on: January 11, 2012, 02:52:53 AM »
I have been reading some sections of the Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin, Folio 101a.... It contains some very interesting stories of our Talmud rabbis opinions on the fact that Jews, even righteous Jews, will be seen suffering. Some will interpret this suffering to be a punishment while others will realize that the suffering of the righteous is a rectification of the sins of the children of Israel. That the righteous will receive punishment in this world so that they require no rectification of their soul in the next world.

I have heard these concepts before but I was not aware of this particular story about Rabbi Eliezer.

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_101.html

Rabbah b. Bar Hana said: When R. Eliezer fell sick, his disciples entered [his house] to visit him. He said to them, 'There is a fierce wrath in the world.'22  They broke into tears, but R. Akiba laughed. 'Why dost thou laugh?' they enquired of him 'Why do ye weep?' he retorted. They answered, 'Shall the Scroll of the Torah23  lie in pain, and we not weep?' — He replied, 'For that very reason I rejoice. As long as I saw that my master's wine did not turn sour, nor was his flax smitten, nor his oil putrefied, nor his honey become rancid,24  I thought, God forbid, that he may have received all his reward in this world [leaving nothing for the next]; but now that I see him lying in pain, I rejoice [knowing that his reward has been treasured up for him in the next].' He [R. Eliezer] said to him, 'Akiba, have I neglected anything of the whole Torah?'25  — He replied, 'Thou, O Master, hast taught us, For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.'26

Our Rabbis taught: When R. Eliezer fell sick, four elders went to visit him, viz., R. Tarfon, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar b. Azariah, and R. Akiba. R. Tarfon observed, 'Thou art more valuable to Israel than rain; for rain is [precious] in this world, whereas thou art [so] for this world and the next.'27  R. Joshua observed, 'Thou art more valuable to Israel than the sun's disc: the sun's disc is but for this world, whilst my master is for this world and the next.' R. Eleazar b. Azariah observed, 'Thou art better to Israel than a father and a mother: these are for this world, whereas my master is for this world and the next. But R. Akiba observed, 'Suffering is precious.' Thereupon he [the sick man] said to them, 'Support me, that I may hear the words of Akiba, my disciple, who said, "Suffering is precious."28  Akiba,' queried he, 'whence dost thou know this?' — He replied, 'I interpret a verse: Mannasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem etc. and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.29  Now it is [elsewhere] written,

These are also the proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out.1  Now, would Hezekiah king of Judah have taught the Torah to the whole world, yet not to his own son Manasseh? But all the pains he spent upon him, and all the labours he lavished upon him did not bring him back to the right path, save suffering alone, as it is written, And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people: but they would not hearken unto him. Wherefore the Lord brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.2  And it is further written, And when he was in affliction, he besought the Lord his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And prayed unto him, and he was entreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem unto his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord he was God.3  Thus thou learnest how precious is suffering.'




22 He referred to himself-God must be very angry with him so to have afflicted him. So Rashi. Graetz Geschichte IV. p. 47 conjectures that his death took place shortly before Trajan's attack upon the Jews of many countries (c. 116-117 C.E.), to which he was alluding in this remark, as the storm was already brewing.
23 I.e., R. Eliezer.
24 He was prosperous in everything.
25 That thou sayest that I now suffer for my sins, so that I may have nothing but reward in the world to come.
26 Ecc. VII, 20.
27 For as a result of his teaching Israel would enjoy a reward in the next world too.
28 Because they make atonement for the sufferer.
29 II Kings XXI, 1f.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 02:53:09 PM »
I find this very interesting. Do you have more on this?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 04:23:28 PM »
I find this very interesting. Do you have more on this?

An important lesson is learned from R. Akivas response to tragedy. This excerpt explains R. Akivas response to several calamities..



http://ohr.edu/special/9av/3weeks.txt

RENEWAL - CONSOLATION

"Akiva, why do you laugh?" the sages asked him when they heard the clamor of Roman legions.

"Why do you cry?" Rabbi Akiva replied.

"Idol worshipers dwell in peace and security, while the Holy Temple is burnt to the ground ... shall we not cry?"

"That's why I'm laughing," said Rabbi Akiva. "If this is how G-d rewards the Romans - who are so wicked and cruel - for the good deeds they sometimes do, how much more will be the reward of the righteous people in the World to Come."

"Akiva, how can you laugh?" they asked standing at the Temple ruins.

"Why do you cry?" he replied.

"The Holy of Holies about which it's written, 'Any unauthorized person who enters shall die,' and now foxes play there? Shall we not cry?"

"That's why I'm laughing," said Rabbi Akiva. "Seeing the fulfillment of the prophecy - "Zion will be plowed like a field" - I more deeply internalize the knowledge that all the prophecies will be fulfilled, including those that foretell the rebuilding of Jerusalem!"

At their teacher's deathbed, Rabbi Akiva explains : "Our teacher, Rabbi Eliezer, enjoyed an ideal life ... his wine never soured, his oil never went bad. He was completely successful in everything. had a suspicion that he was somehow receiving his reward in this life, and that he had no part in the World to Come. Now that I see his suffering, I realize he's being purged of whatever minute sin he may have committed, and that his reward in the next world remains intact."

And faced with death by torture for the 'crime' of teaching Torah, Rabbi Akiva laughed. "All my life I've been waiting to fulfill the concept 'You shall love Hashem, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul...' and now I finally have the chance."

* * * * * * * * *

May we all merit to become 'straight of heart,' to approach Rabbi Akiva's depth of truth. And then, may we say, as the sages did, "Akiva, you have comforted us. Akiva, you have comforted us."

Sources:
o  Tractate Makkot 24a
o  Tractate Sanhedrin 101a
o  Tractate Menachot 61b
o  Talmud Yerushalmi, Berachot 9:5
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 06:53:37 PM »
Thank you! I like that. That answers multiple questions I've had in life. ;D
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
Why do Noachides get off easy? Shouldn't they suffer as well. After all these years, how would they know if their ancestors are from Israel or not.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 09:36:26 PM »
Why do Noachides get off easy? Shouldn't they suffer as well. After all these years, how would they know if their ancestors are from Israel or not.

I believe that Hashem wants all of his creations to pray to him. One of the reasons suffering is brought is to make people realize that Hashem is the only one to whom we {all his creation} should request blessing from. While the Jewish people have a close bond with him, with Hashem as our father and we his children, I believe that all non-Jews {Noachide} are treated similarly. Their suffering is, in my opinion, meritorious and if the suffering results in closeness to Hashem it is for the good.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 09:36:58 PM »
Of course Noahides suffer.  The premiere book about suffering in the Bible is about a Noahide named Job.

Indeed Job was not Jewish... Very good example...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 09:40:03 PM »
This article expresses this idea...


http://www.midrash.org/article/rabbanith-ruth-menashe/hear-my-prayer

Please hear my prayer
(Tehillim 39:13)
By Rabbanith Ruth Menashe

Every single person in the world lacks something. In fact, the world was created in such a way that there is no such thing as a human being who has everything. Some long for health, others wish they had a slightly greater (or a much larger) income, there are those who wait to find their right match, while others yearn for children. “If I only had….” The combinations are endless.

Just like a loving father – indeed, even more than a loving father — our Merciful Father in Heaven wants to bestow only good upon us. He created the world for our own pleasure and enjoyment and places us here to give us an abundance of good. In view of this, how can we explain and understand the apparent contradiction of a Father who purposely deprives his beloved child? How can such action possibly stem from deep love?  Why is there pain and suffering? Why is it that we all lack something?

The following parable will perhaps give us an answer to some of the questions above. A king called his son who lived away from home and told him that he would like to discuss his yearly allowance. The king, with his unlimited funds, told his son that he would give him 365 gold coins per year, an extraordinary amount of money. However, there was one condition attached – the son would need to come to the palace every day to collect his golden coin. The king could have easily given a bag full of 365 gold coins to his son but he wanted, more than anything else, to see his beloved son daily. He longed to spend time together with him and deepen their relationship.

G-d, the King of all kings, wanted to give us everything we need, but He wants us, His children, to have a close connection with Him. He wants us to build a close bond with Him. We too, have to visit Him daily and make our requests.

When we examine the punishment of the Nahash (serpent), we see the exact opposite. Hashem cursed the serpent: “Cursed you are… upon your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.” One may pose the following question: If dust, which is the food that the snake should eat is found everywhere, isn’t this curse really a blessing? Its food is found in abundance wherever it goes! Nevertheless, it is not a blessing but is, indeed, a curse. The snake, having all its needs fulfilled, is deprived of building any connection or relationship with Hashem. This is virtual excommunication by G-d.

When G-d created the world, He created Adam and Eve only after the entire Creation was complete. The light, the sea and the earth, the trees and flowers, the sun, moon and stars and the animals were all created and in place. Finally, on the sixth day, He created Adam and brought him into a world that was complete and prepared for his use. However, when we read further (Bereshith 2:5) we find a seemingly contradictory verse. It says: “All the trees of the field were not yet on the earth and the grass of the field had not yet sprouted.” Didn’t we read earlier (Bereshith 1:12) that all the trees, herbs and vegetation had already come forth?

Our Rabbis of blessed memory explain that the Creator did, indeed, create all the trees, herbs and vegetation, but they all remained beneath the surface of the earth; they did not break through the ground. Why is that? “Because G-d did not bring rain, and there was no man to work the soil” (Bereshith 2:5). In other words, G-d had prepared for all of Adam’s needs, as a loving father would. He created everything that Adam would need or wish to use and had them waiting for his arrival. However, since the vegetation was still under the surface, Adam understood the need for rain and realized that the only way to bring it was through prayer.

We must learn from this a very important concept: just as G-d prepared for all of Adam’s needs in this world, so too, G-d has prepared the needs of all of us in this world. However, in order to receive them we must use the tool that G-d has given us in order to make the connection with Him that He desires. That tool is our power of speech which must be used in the form of ardent Tefillah (prayer).

One of the main purposes of Tefillah is to create a close relationship with Hashem. Just like in any interpersonal relationship, the element of communication is something that creates closeness and the absence of it leads to a distant relationship, perhaps even to its breakdown, so too, regular and constant communication with G-d, in the form of prayer, is what cements the closeness and quality of the relationship.

Very often, women feel overwhelmed and overburdened by the seemingly unending daily chores, combined with the demands of raising one’s children, for whom one must be on call twenty four hours a day, especially if they also carry the burden of bringing income into the home. Finding time to pray may therefore seem like a luxury. But we must not make that mistake. It is precisely because we set aside time from our arduous schedule, that gives us the energy we feel we lack. This is what gives us the strength and ability to be better wives, mothers and people. And more importantly, as I have mentioned, it cements the bond with Hashem, as a result of which, He gives us the blessings that He has kept in store for us.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 10:45:08 PM »
Thanks Guys!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suffering!?! Is it necessary?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 12:42:33 AM »
Thanks Guys!


An interesting 'coincidence' {I don't believe in that} is that two years ago when I drove down to Los Angeles for my fathers funeral I listened to several great shuir/lectures on the topic of Iyov/Job. I still remember most of what I learned but I also studied Kohelet/Ecclesiastes a little more enthusiastically because my father had informed me that it was his 'favorite' of the Ketuvim/Writings.

Here at Torah.org is a complete set of articles on each chapter of The Book of Job...

http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/archives.html

Quote
Introduction

An explanation of major themes within the Book of Job based mainly on the writings of the Malbim (Rabbi Meir Leibush Malbim) with important additions from the Ramban (Nachmanides) and the Biur HaGra (commentary of the Vilna Gaon).

Presented by Rabbi Yitzchak Schwartz, Rosh Hayeshiva (Dean) of Orchos Chaim Yeshiva in Jerusalem

The Malbim, in the introduction to his commentary on this holy book, explains that the main purpose of the Book of Job is to expound upon one of the most perplexing phenomena in the human experience; the apparent lack of justice throughout history. All too often the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper. The underlying pain in this question has bothered the great thinkers in every generation including the greatest of all prophets, Moses.

It is the confusion which results from considering this paradox that led many people to reject the path of belief and faith in a righteous and living G-d.

Job was a devout and righteous man, yet his suffering was terrible and came for no apparent reason. As a man of unwavering faith, Job could not reconcile his belief in a merciful G-d with the tragedy of his own lot. Therefore, he felt it was reasonable to surmise that in fact, G-d does not concern Himself with the welfare of human beings. He neither rewards nor punishes according to our deeds. G-d is too exalted and man is too lowly for Him to be bothered with our behavior and needs.

He concluded that the fate of mankind is out of our hands, that we are subject to mechanical forces beyond our control set irrevocably in motion at the time of creation. The results of our decisions and actions deceptively appear to be the outcome of our own free will. In reality they are a product of celestial prescripts. If our deeds are the consequence of predetermined design we cannot be rewarded or held accountable for them. Job's answer to his own suffering is that he is the victim of fate, until his friend Elihu finally convinces him otherwise.

Before we begin a conceptual analysis of this holy book it will be helpful to clarify four things:

1) Who wrote it?
2) What is its content?
3) In what form is the material presented?
4) What is the purpose of this book?

Let us consider each these questions:

1. Who wrote it?

From chazal (our Sages) z"l, it is clear that the authorship of this book is attributed to Moshe (Moses) Rabbeinu (our teacher). This point is discussed in the tractate Bava Bathra page14b. The Malbim explained that Moshe wrote it to console the Hebrew nation when they were enslaved and suffering under Egyptian oppression.

2. What is its content?

The book of Job (in Hebrew Iyov) is the story of an exceedingly righteous man who is afflicted with horrific suffering for no apparent reason. While the main character is obviously Iyov, it is not at all clear who this person was. In fact the Talmud ( Bava Bathra page 14b ) contains a long dispute if Iyov was a Jew, a gentile, or indeed if he at all existed.

According to the latter opinion the book of Job is a parable. It seems that most of our sages did not accept this opinion. But even according to this minority opinion we cannot relegate this work to the realm of empty fiction or myth. We can confidently claim that it is the greatest commentary on human suffering ever written.

It is interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon offers a fascinating interpretation of this Talmudic passage. According to his approach the latter opinion does not dispute the reality of Iyov. Rather it explains the purpose of his existence. He ( Iyov ) was created to be a role model ( a "mashal" in Hebrew ) from whom everyone can learn the appropriate way to accept suffering. Accordingly, we are to take a lesson from Iyov that man has no license to sit in judgment of G-d. He ( G-d ) does not need our moral approval. Although at times some of His ways may seem to be harsh they are allways based on absolute justice. Alas, the world of the absolute is often beyond our comprehension.

The tragic suffering of Iyov evokes the strong protest of all fair minded human beings: Should the righteous suffer? This question has to be one of mankind's most elusive mysteries since time immemorial. Several answers are presented and fiercely debated throughout the chapters of the book. They are forwarded by the friends of Iyov: Eliphaz, Beldad, Tzofer, and Elihu.

There is also a curiously veiled character who appears in the story; the Satan. He is the antagonist, the prosecutor, the villain (additional pejorative epithets are optional). His motivations are not clear, but his influence is clearly demonstrated. We will devote special attention to the subject of the Satan in one of our future installments.

There can be no discussion on human suffering without mention of G-d. Indeed, comprehending G-d's role in the world is essential in order to understand this book. His acquiescence to the Satan is simultaneously perplexing and disturbing. The absence of Divine intervention throughout this drama lends strong support to Iyov's contention that G-d neither scrutinizes human behavior nor concerns Himself with the human plight.

3. In what form is the material presented?

The discussions and arguments are presented in the form of a dialogue between Iyov and his friends. Each of these characters presents a unique approach to Iyov's plight. On the one hand Iyov is a believer, a man of intense faith and devout service. However, he cannot accept that a merciful, righteous G-d would consent to the dreadful suffering meted out to him at the hands of the Satan. The foundations of theology are tested in a battle field of what appears to be senseless human suffering. The issues are hotly debated between Iyov and his three friends. Finally Iyov finds balm for his wounds in the wisdom of Elihu ben Barachel.

4. What is the purpose of this book?

Moshe wrote this book as a source of consolement for his brethren who were suffering at the hands of their brutal Egyptian slave masters. They wanted to know why the righteous suffer while the wicked prosper. This was an issue with which Moshe had to struggle with his entire life time. As a young man he saw both the tranquillity of Pharaoh's palace and his brothers subjected to arduous labor and cruel torture. He felt compelled to find out if there was order and justice in the world or if man was just to suffer silently? Indeed, Moshe was so absorbed with this issue that on one momentous occasion when his intimate relationship with G-d could have secured for him whatever his heart desired, Moshe requested only two things:

1. That G-d cause His Divine Presence to dwell only amongst the Jewish nation for eternity.

2. That G-d grant him the wisdom to understand the suffering of the righteous and the prosperity of the wicked.

Our Sages tell us that although Moshe was granted his first request. The second remained concealed from him.

Our Sages reveal to us that ultimately there is an approach which can help us constructively accept our own misfortunes and suffering, however they make it clear that no absolute solution is available. Let us be patient in our investigations and all the more so in our conclusions. Let us have the humility and integrity to recognize and accept our own human limitations. After all, we have not the prophetic powers of Moshe nor the wisdom of Solomon and even they could not uncover the answer. It is crucial to realize that our limitations in understanding does not mean that suffering is without reason or plan. Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato explains in his book Daas Tevunos that part of our reward in the world to come will be that G-d will reveal to us the meaning of every bit of pain and suffering that we experienced in our life times.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14