Ephraim vs Modern Jews

[Chai]

This is from wiki on Ephraim.

Just like the Religious Zionist today who want an independent Israel with out Messiah. Why did God punish Ephraim? What about what Rabbi Kahane said about miracles dont just happen , they happen because we earn them  Ephraim had a lot of courage . What is the difference between them and us?Ephraim was the only tripe that didn't have a "getto" mentality. I think god should have rewarded Ephraim


Rabbinical texts mock the tribe for the character it has in the deuteronomic history, claiming that Ephraim, being headstrong, left Egypt 30 years prior to the Exodus, and on arrival in Canaan was subjected to a disastrous battle with the Philistines;[6] in the Midrashic Jasher this is portrayed as a rebellion of Ephraim against God, resulting in the slaying of all but 10, and the bleached bones of the slaughtered being strewn across the roads, so much so that the circuitous route of the Exodus was simply an attempt by God to prevent the Israelites from having to suffer the sight of the remains.[6]

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rabbinical texts mock the tribe for the character it has

 Not true. In fact the opposite once 1 looks into that. It talks about the history of the tribe leaving Egypt and then the fact that they got slaughtered. When does it say that? When it points that they stole sheep from the Pilishtim. If you go back in history to Avraham you see him making a covenant with the king of the Plishtim (one of the reasons for the slavery in Egypt- given by RambaN) since they (Ephraim) broke that covenant by stealing from them a consequence was that they go killed.  BUT later on it was precisely these same people who merited being resurrected in the time of Ezekiel the Prophet.
  Some (particularly anti-zionists) use this incident to say see you shouldn't leave the galut, but the Talmudh or Rabbinic texts (and the commentaries to it) say otherwise, soo don't make that confusion.

[Chai]

Oh yeaaa they did I forgot about that. If you guys know anything else please i find this interesting !

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Oh yeaaa they did I forgot about that. If you guys know anything else please i find this interesting !

 Their was a great Shiur By Rabbi Yehuda Richter on it online some time ago, but it was taken down (not by him but by Gov.)

[Chai]

What ? What gov? What did the shir entail that is was brought down?

[muman613]

Here is some interesting insight into this from AskMoses.com:



http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/195,2114525/The-Warriors-of-Ephraim.html#articlepage

The Warriors of Ephraim
by Nissan Mindel
Talks and Tales

More than a hundred years had passed since the death of Joseph in Egypt, and the bitterness of the Golut (Exile) had become daily more unbearable. The young prince, Moses, who was the first to protest against the Egyptian oppressors, had been forced to flee the country. For, Dathan and Abiram had reported to Pharaoh that the young Moses had killed an Egyptian Overseer who was beating up a Jewish slave.

At this time a certain Jew of the tribe of Ephraim appeared; his name was Yagnon. He addressed his fellow-Jews in a rousing battle-cry: "Listen, my brothers! A hundred and eighty years have already passed since our ancestors arrived in Egypt; we can wait no longer for salvation. We are strong enough to take this matter into our own hands to free ourselves from the Egyptian yoke and capture our land, the land promised to our forefathers!"

But the older men in his audience just shook their heads sadly, and said: "If Yagnon truly believes that G-d promised our forefathers the Land of Canaan, then why does he not also believe that G-d will free His people and give us our land when He judges it to be the right time?"

    They armed themselves with swords, bows and arrows, and marched out of Egypt

Yagnon, despite his fiery, rousing words, had little success amongst the majority of his listeners. Only the men of his own tribe of Ephraim backed him up and tried to influence others to follow suit, but without avail.

Nevertheless, Yagnon and his followers were determined to act on their own. They armed themselves with swords, bows and arrows, and marched out of Egypt. A fierce battle ensued, and the warriors of Ephraim experienced their first victory. Unfortunately, this was short-lived.They had brought no food with them, only gold and silver, meaning to buy food from the Philistines. The way to the Land of Israel through the Land of the Philistines was a short distance away, and the men of Ephraim soon found themselves at the borders of the Philistines. There, near the town of Gath, they saw herds of cattle and sheep and a number of shepherds taking care of them.

The men of Ephraim offered to buy some cattle and sheep, but the shepherds refused. However, the Ephraimites, tired and hungry after the heavy fighting they had gone through, began to round up some of the animals by force. The shepherds then set up a loud cry which brought out a large number of residents from the nearby city of Gath. A bitter battle followed, with heavy casualties on both sides. The men of Gath then sent out an urgent call for help throughout the land: "The Jews are threatening us and our land; Come and help us stop them!"

The Philistines quickly mobilized all their fighting men and hurried to the aid of Gath. The men of Ephraim saw that they were greatly outnumbered and, without G-d's help, they would be lost. They looked out over the valley of Gath and saw the great number of their men who had fallen in battle (whom the Philistines did not even allow to be taken away for burial) and whose bodies were fated to be left there, neglected and uncared for. (It was hundreds of years later that the prophet Ezekiel, through a Divine prophecy, brought the bones back to life in his prophecy about the Valley of the Dry Bones).

    "Let us look forward to that great day when He will take us out of our Golut, with many wonderful miracles"

Very few of the men of Ephraim managed to save themselves. They escaped to Egypt and poured out their bitter feelings to their old father Ephraim, Joseph's son.

"I warned you, my dear children, that you should not depend upon your own powers, nor on the help of other nations," Ephraim said to his war-saddened sons. "But do not lose hope, my children! The time of salvation is not far off. Put your trust in G-d. He will surely fulfill the promise He made to our grandfather Jacob. Let us look forward to that great day when He will take us out of our Golut, with many wonderful miracles."

At that time Ephraim's youngest son was born whom he named Beriah, commemorating the misfortune (Ra'ah) that befell his tribe.

Thirty years later Ephraim's words became a reality. The Jews left Egypt under the leadership of Moshe Rabbenu, accompanied by the many miracles described in the Haggadah, which stir the hearts of all Jews, wherever they are, to this very day.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Very few of the men of Ephraim managed to save themselves. They escaped to Egypt and poured out their bitter feelings to their old father Ephraim, Joseph's son.

 How could that be if this was 30 years before (as is said there) Moshe and the Exodus from Egypt, and all the heads of the tribes passed away? (Maybe here it is counting Yosef and not Ephraim and Menashe?)
  Anyway I dont like it that they dont source it. Their are definitely those who say otherwise.

[edu]

There are a number of differences between the kind of actions that Rabbi Kahane expected from us and the situation that the tribe of Ephraim were in.
I will choose to dwell on the point that has the most educational value, which I also raised in the Torah forum of JTF, regarding Avraham's {Abraham's} zeal at G-d's command to try to sacrifice his son.
A point was raised how to understand the statement:
Greater is the one who is commanded than the one who is not commanded. (Kiddushin 32a)

Ramchal (Moshe Chayim Luzzatto) in Daat Tevunote Moshe translated into English by Feldheim Publishers under the title The Knowing Heart, explains the intention of the Sages in the following way.
He says that not all people are equal, in the sense, that 2 people can do the same act, where in the case of the first individual because he his very holy, it will have a tremendous impact on the world, while the second individual who is not that holy will not have much of an impact on the world when he does the act or it might even be a sin for him.
He gives the example that Yonatan Ben Uziel was so holy that when he learned Torah, a bird that flew over his head was burnt up, due to the tremendous spiritual energy, coming out of his learning. While thousands of others who are not so holy, will not cause this. A second example, he brings is the eating of kodshim, holy foods, such as certain parts of the body of sacrificed animals. If a cohen, a descendant of Aharon, who has been properly prepared, eats them he performs a commandment. If a non-cohen eats them he does a sin.
He then continues to explain, so too, at Sinai, when the Jews were commanded to perform the Torah, they were also imbued with a greater holiness, so that their performance of the commandments would have a greater spiritual impact on the world, than those who do the commandments out of choice.
In light of this see the words of Rashi to the Talmud, tractate chulin 100b that the sons of Yaakov {Jacob} before the giving of the torah were classified as Noahides.
Therefore, the tribe of Ephraim who were simply classified as children of Noah, who had less holiness than the nation of Israel, after the giving of the Torah at Mount sinai, can not serve as a "proof" against Rabbi Kahane.
This is in addition to the fact that  Rabbi Kahane seemed to back better tactics.

[GunsAndRosesFan]

Interesting...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

This topic I find Very Interesting, if anyone has more on this I would love to see it! Please!

[Dr. Dan]

Could it be that ephraim was right at the wrong time?  So was rabbi kahane.  He was right, but ahead of his time.  While he suffered and so did ephraim and they did not live to see their redemption, didn't the surviving group suffer during the 40 years of wandering in the desert?
Perhaps the story of ephraim is to show us that not every right decision will give a reward.  And this is because Gd doesn't want people to think that every good act will bring a reward in this world or else there would be no free will.  Ezekiel says the ephramites will be resurrected as a reward in the days of moshiach.  The world in this life is continued with the world is the afterlife which is forever.

The lesson should be, do the right thing even if it leads to demise.

[Chai]

Could it be that ephraim was right at the wrong time?  So was rabbi kahane.  He was right, but ahead of his time.  While he suffered and so did ephraim and they did not live to see their redemption, didn't the surviving group suffer during the 40 years of wandering in the desert?
Perhaps the story of ephraim is to show us that not every right decision will give a reward.  And this is because Gd doesn't want people to think that every good act will bring a reward in this world or else there would be no free will.  Ezekiel says the ephramites will be resurrected as a reward in the days of moshiach.  The world in this life is continued with the world is the afterlife which is forever.

The lesson should be, do the right thing even if it leads to demise.

very deep

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Could it be that ephraim was right at the wrong time?  So was rabbi kahane.  He was right, but ahead of his time.  While he suffered and so did ephraim and they did not live to see their redemption, didn't the surviving group suffer during the 40 years of wandering in the desert?
Perhaps the story of ephraim is to show us that not every right decision will give a reward.  And this is because Gd doesn't want people to think that every good act will bring a reward in this world or else there would be no free will.  Ezekiel says the ephramites will be resurrected as a reward in the days of moshiach.  The world in this life is continued with the world is the afterlife which is forever.

The lesson should be, do the right thing even if it leads to demise.

I like that Dr.  Dan. Very well put! Thank you.