Intermarriage and death

[Dr. Dan]

I met someone today who's mother was a German Jew who married a gentile (later got divorced).

She had left Germany at a time before Hitler (Ysv) was about to open the concentration camps and was one of those people who were turned away from other nations.  When she got to Panama, she only had a short period time before she would have to leave and go back to Germany to potentially reach a certain death from the Nazis (Ysv).  She met a gentile man and got married and as a result of the marriage, became a citizen...and therefore saved her life.

In what realm is this allowed or not allowed in Judaism?

[Zelhar]

Well what become of her children ?

[Dr. Dan]

Well what become of her children ?

Her children have to be Jewish for the reason that the mother is Jewish.

But my question is, if it is a matter of life and death and someone had to marry a gentile to save his/her life in this particular situation, how does it sit in our religion?

[briann]

I'm sure Muman knows this better than me, but I would say this is absolutely acceptable.

If the purpose is TRULY to save your life, rules can be broken.

But the children NEED to be made aware that they are Jewish.

[muman613]

Did she convert? If she did not renounce her faith in Hashem then I don't think it is a very big sin. While intermarriage is forbidden it does not carry a death sentence. And due to my understanding of Pikuach Nefesh/Saving life I think that this may have been a mitzvah...


http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/12103/jewish/Pikuach-Nefesh-Saving-a-Life.htm

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/moadim69/29-69moed.htm

The Sick, Infirmed, and Pregnant on Yom Kippur

The Tosefta (Shabbat 9:22) teaches, "Nothing stands in the way of saving one's life (pikuach nefesh)." While the Talmud does discuss limitations to this principle, as a general rule, pikuach nefesh takes precedence over other mitzvot and prohibitions. 

The gemara (Yoma 85a) searches for a source for this principle:

It once happened that R. Yishmael, R. Akiva, and R. Elazar b. Azarya were traveling on the road with Levi the organizer and R. Yishmael, the son of R. Elazar ben Azarya, following behind them, when the following question was asked before them:  From where do we know that saving a life overrides the law of Shabbat?"

After citing numerous possibilities, the gemara cites a final opinion:

R. Yehuda said in the name of Shmuel: Had I been there I would have said that mine [source] is better than theirs. [It is written] "[You shall guard My decrees and My laws that man shall carry out] and he shall live by them (Vayikra 18:5)" – but he should not die on their account. 

Regarding Yom Kippur, the Talmud (Yoma 82a) explicitly permits one who is dangerously ill to eat and drink. Just as one violates the Sabbath or any other commandment in order to preserve one's life (except for the three cardinal sins of murder, illicit sexual relations, and idolatry), one may, and is even required to, eat or drink on Yom Kippur in order to preserve one's life. 
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[Zelhar]

Her children have to be Jewish for the reason that the mother is Jewish.

But my question is, if it is a matter of life and death and someone had to marry a gentile to save his/her life in this particular situation, how does it sit in our religion?

They may be technically Jewish but do they even know it and if they do do they care ?

I think it is obviously not condemnable if the woman had only married for technicality. But if she assimilated into the gentile culture that's a whole lot different. I don't understand from what you say who is her children's father ?

[muman613]

If she were forced to return to Germany she may have had no children, and have died at the hands of the evil one.

[Dr. Dan]

They may be technically Jewish but do they even know it and if they do do they care ?

I think it is obviously not condemnable if the woman had only married for technicality. But if she assimilated into the gentile culture that's a whole lot different. I don't understand from what you say who is her children's father ?

I think that this part of the argument is moot in reality.

Yes, her son is aware of his Jewish roots, however, I'm not sure to what degree he keeps Judaism. He's definitely not self hating and shows an interest in his roots.

His parents divorced after 14 years in marriage.  And definitely consider what this man's father did was good and saved her life.  Then again, I'm not sure if she got married just to save her life or if she fell in love with a gentile and was secular to begin with.  In my opinion, in either way, it would be a moot point in Judaism.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Did she convert? If she did not renounce her faith in Hashem then I don't think it is a very big sin.

 I hope no one gets the wrong impression by this statement. Intermarriage IS a very big sin. Even though technically the children are Jewish under Jewish law, still intermarriage is a terrible crime.
 That being said under this case I don't know if what she did was the right thing. It needs to be checked, because a Jew is not supposed to give up his life unless 1 of 3 things- Idolatry, murder or sexual immorality. The question is would this case fall under that or not (for sure with any man if she was married to a Jew, but since not, its a whole discussion and I don't know the exact answer).
 But either way she could have 1) be "married" legally for the documents w/o having relations with him. 2) legally divorce right after getting the papers, etc. No excuse to stay if and when the danger to life is over ( I know emotions involved, but still the greatest emotions and actions is to G-D, they cannot be true soul mates).

[Zelhar]

My impression is the woman was an assimilated self hating Jewess to begin with, like most German Jews were. The fact that she wanted to save herself is of course completely understandable, but I don't think she cared at the least to preserve the identity.

[muman613]

My impression is the woman was an assimilated self hating Jewess to begin with, like most German Jews were. The fact that she wanted to save herself is of course completely understandable, but I don't think she cared at the least to preserve the identity.

How do you know this? Are you aware of this case which Dr Dan is referring to?

[muman613]

I believe that only Hashem will be able to judge whether this woman married for the reason of saving her life as opposed to selfish reasons. It does no good to judge one way or the other without knowing the facts of the case. As it says:

Pirkie Avot Chapter 2 Mishnah 5

Hillel said: Do not separate yourself from the community; and do not trust in yourself until the day of your death.Do not judge your fellow until you are in his place. Do not say something that cannot be understood but will be understood in the end. Say not: When I have time I will study because you may never have the time.

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter2-5c.html

We finally move on to Hillel's final words of advice, which we will cover quickly. Not judging your fellow until you reach his place implies we should basically never judge our fellow. No two people are truly alike -- neither in background nor in disposition. We never really know what our fellow is going through or what contributed to his poor life-decisions. We must attempt to help and guide others, but we must never condemn them simply because we would have never acted that way. (And, of course, recall what we just learned -- that sometimes a person's very greatness compels him to misuse or deny that greatness.)

http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=avos2

"Do not judge your fellow man until you find yourself in his situation."

This is why the Sages cautioned us (Avot 1:6), "Judge every man in a favorable light." For in judging his fellow-man favorably, in a good, kindly light, a person won't pass any harsh judgment on himself, and he will never be subjected to any punishment in his lifetime.

It is in this sense that the Sages say, "Do not judge your fellow man until you find yourself in his situation." It means that this you should know: You are not shown by Heaven any action of another person to pass judgment on it, until you have arrived actually at his situation, because you have done the same kind of deed as your fellow man.

Heaven therefore shows you the other's deed, for you to judge it -- and as you pass judgment, so will it happen to you. Consequently, you should always see to it that you judge him favorably, leniently; and in this way you will also judge yourself favorably and leniently.

[Zelhar]

How do you know this? Are you aware of this case which Dr Dan is referring to?

No. But I read between the lines and use my experience. For example the said person says his mother was Jewish rather then he is Jewish. His mother was a German Jew and believe me I know these people and in fact I am a descendant of German Jews. German Jews at the turn of 20th century already reached self hating levels that American Jews reached 100 years later. Not all of them of course, but most of them.

[muman613]

No. But I read between the lines and use my experience. For example the said person says his mother was Jewish rather then he is Jewish. His mother was a German Jew and believe me I know these people and in fact I am a descendant of German Jews. German Jews at the turn of 20th century already reached self hating levels that American Jews reached 100 years later. Not all of them of course, but most of them.

I did not see that when I read Dr Dans question... If you are right then maybe there is a question, but I try to give the benefit of the doubt...

[muman613]

And Tag is correct that Judaism is very clear that intermarriage is an act of rebellion against Hashems will that the Jewish people remain a cohesive unit and a Holy nation. But I also understand that the Torah does allow converts. And the Torah does allow a Jew to save his life when threatened by Jew haters.

I cannot cut off those who have intermarried though because they still can come around to make teshuva.