Shalom

[edu]

Quote from Zelhar

These stories prove nothing about what's "out there". They tell about the experience and senses of a person who undergoes massive trauma injury and clinical death.

One problem with this answer is that the clinically dead sometimes come back with information that they did not have access to before the massive trauma injury and clinical death.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Wound you like to hear a short story? Of one reason I believe in the after life.

[Zelhar]

One problem with this answer is that the clinically dead sometimes come back with information that they did not have access to before the massive trauma injury and clinical death.

I heard such claims and if they are true I don't know how to explain them. It wouldn't be enough to convince me though.

Wound you like to hear a short story? Of one reason I believe in the after life.

sure.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I wasn't going to give him some crazy pagan ghost story! I was going to tell him a story that everything is ok when we die!

[edu]

quote from dan ben noah

The fact that miracles have happened, even false miracles, suggests that there is more to reality than meets the eye.  But ultimately miracles are not what's going to make Jews observe Torah.  The Tanach's history shows that even after G-d had performed many miracles at the hands of Moses for all Israel to see, they still sank into the lowest forms of idolatry.  So ultimately it's a decision of whether to do the right thing or not, because there will always be some excuse not to believe.

My response is that there are at least 2 types of people who are not religious.
The first type honestly has, what he believes to be logical reasons not to believe and when he is presented with evidence against his initial conclusions, such as, miracles he changes his opinions.
The second type really does not want to believe no matter what the evidence, suggests. Those types will twist the evidence in any direction they can in order to avoid being religious, even if shown a miracle.

[Zelhar]

quote from dan ben noahMy response is that there are at least 2 types of people who are not religious.
The first type honestly has, what he believes to be logical reasons not to believe and when he is presented with evidence against his initial conclusions, such as, miracles he changes his opinions.
The second type really does not want to believe no matter what the evidence, suggests. Those types will twist the evidence in any direction they can in order to avoid being religious, even if shown a miracle.

I think that like Dan said, eventually a person just has to make a decision to believe and observe. The talmud has a very good story, "akhnai oven", that teaches us (even skeptics like me) not to rely on miracles but on the laws of Torah.

[edu]

Quote from Zelhar

I think that like Dan said, eventually a person just has to make a decision to believe and observe.
 The talmud has a very good story, "akhnai oven", that teaches us (even skeptics like me) not to rely on miracles but on the laws of Torah.

The akhnai oven story tells us not to rely on miracles, to decide halachic disputes.
It is not dealing with the question of why to believe at all in the Torah.
In the Torah, when skeptics raised a question if G-d had indeed commanded Moshe (Moses) to make his brother, the Cohain Gadol (high priest), Moshe in fact did prove, that the command originated from G-d, by means of a miracle.
As stated in Bamidbar (Numbers) chapter 17, Moshe gathered 12 staffs from the princes of 12 tribes and each man had his name written on the staffs. Among the staffs was the staff of Moshe's brother Aharon (Aaron).
The staffs were left overnight in the Mishkan (Tabernacle) and the next day everyone noticed that flowers miraculously had sprouted from Aharon's staff. This miracle staff was to be left for all generations as a sign to rebellious people near the ark of the covenant that indeed G-d had chosen Aharon and the choice was not a personal, human choice of Moshe.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

I guess my question for this this Asher guy is: if he converts the entire world to Judaism, then who will be the ten Gentiles who will want to study under every Jew as promised by Zechariah 8:23?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-OlAY4Iq0kc#t=188s

It's like he's trying to lead a revolt against G-d's natural order. Spiritual communism, basically. Jews and gentiles were created for different purposes and given different jobs, and we must all know our place in creation. And sure, every now and then, a Jewish soul may end up in a gentile body, and a so-called conversion is needed. But this is really no conversion at all - just a soul finding its way back.

I've heard Asher compared to Muslims by some. But I would disagree. With Muslims, you don't have to convert. You just have to submit to their rule. Asher isn't demanding that anyone convert or submit to his rule.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

And sure, every now and then, a Jewish soul may end up in a gentile body, and a so-called conversion is needed. But this is really no conversion at all - just a soul finding its way back.

 No. someone who comes to convert is not a Jew beforehand. They are a non-Jew who wishes to become Jewish and that is alright. What you are saying is predeterminism which we don't believe. A non-Jew who wishes to convert is given the chance, but he/she is a non-Jew before hand and then they become Jewish. If what you are saying is correct then the non-Jew who is in the process of conversion wouldn't have to be told to do 1 melacha on Shabbath.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

No. someone who comes to convert is not a Jew beforehand. They are a non-Jew who wishes to become Jewish and that is alright. What you are saying is predeterminism which we don't believe. A non-Jew who wishes to convert is given the chance, but he/she is a non-Jew before hand and then they become Jewish. If what you are saying is correct then the non-Jew who is in the process of conversion wouldn't have to be told to do 1 melacha on Shabbath.

Ok well I didn't mean to insinuate that just anyone who approaches a rabbi with the desire to convert was a Jew beforehand - only those who make it through all the obstacles and then get converted in an orthodox bet din. But yes, I now see that I have wrongly injected predestination into Judaism in an attempt to make sense out of it from my perspective (raised Calvinist with a belief in predestination, etc.).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

only those who make it through all the obstacles and then get converted in an orthodox bet din.

 Again no as well. Sorry.

[edu]

quote from roermy

Ok well I didn't mean to insinuate that just anyone who approaches a rabbi with the desire to convert was a Jew beforehand - only those who make it through all the obstacles and then get converted in an orthodox bet din.

This statement has to be further refined.
We will not say that once a gentile converted, retroactively all the actions he did in his life before the conversion, are to be defined as an action performed by a Jew. So for example, if that convert had "married" a Jewish woman before the conversion, that marriage would not be legally binding according to halacha, (religious law).
On the other hand, there is a viewpoint among Jewish sources, that even before the convert, converted he had a Jewish soul.