Author Topic: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad  (Read 74022 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #150 on: July 02, 2012, 09:20:52 PM »
So now that it is clear you are an anti-zionist... Do you come here knowing that this a a Kahanist forum and suggest to us that zionism is wrong. We are aware of your arguments and reject them, as many other Rabbis have rejected them.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8987
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #151 on: July 02, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »
Dead wrong.  The Chasam Sofer writes that if a Tzaddik finds himself and his flock in danger, he should escape and pray for his flock while he is out of the danger, in which case his efforts will be more effective min hashamayim than had he stayed with them.
Quote
In June 1944, Teitelbaum became one of a group of some 1,685 people whose release from Hungary was negotiated with Adolf Eichmann by the Zionist leader Rudolf Kastner, who had negotiated the escape of a small group of people who were mostly Zionists but also included a number of prominent rabbis and wealthy Jews who, it is claimed, paid an exorbitant fee to be on the rescue train, nicknamed "Noah's ark". Teitelbaum and his wife were passengers on the Kastner train bound for Switzerland, which was re-routed to Bergen-Belsen for six months before being allowed to continue to the Swiss border as originally planned.
Does the Chasam Sofer say his wife should also escape... Personally speaking it really looks like he was really only concerned about his own hide.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #152 on: July 02, 2012, 09:30:59 PM »
בס''ד

You mean the Satmar "rebbe" wasn't on the Kastner Judenrat train? You mean the Satmar "rebbe" warned his followers to leave Hungary the way he did? You are the one who is lying - to yourself.

Zionism itself caused the Holocaust, as Rav Hutner explained.

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #153 on: July 02, 2012, 09:34:44 PM »
בס''ד

You mean the Satmar "rebbe" wasn't on the Kastner Judenrat train? You mean the Satmar "rebbe" warned his followers to leave Hungary the way he did? You are the one who is lying - to yourself.

The Jews of Europe didn't know what was in store for them.  Hindsight is 20/20 but most Polish and even Hungarian Jews did not know the impending doom that was coming.  This is evident from Elie Wiesel's description of the complete surprise by the Hungarians when they were invaded. 

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8987
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #154 on: July 02, 2012, 09:36:46 PM »
Zionism itself caused the Holocaust, as Rav Hutner explained.
There must be some crazy reasoning behind that.... Do you honestly believe that?
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8987
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #155 on: July 02, 2012, 09:39:30 PM »
The Jews of Europe didn't know what was in store for them.  Hindsight is 20/20 but most Polish and even Hungarian Jews did not know the impending doom that was coming.  This is evident from Elie Wiesel's description of the complete surprise by the Hungarians when they were invaded.
We don't really care for Elie the Weasel here at JTF.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2012, 09:40:05 PM »
That must be some explenation]There must be some crazy reasoning behind that.... Do you honestly believe that?

This is what the Satmar Rebbe preaches... And I have heard it said that this may be a reason for the Holocaust... But it may have been a punishment prior to allowing the Jewish people to enter the holy land. It is wrong to speculate about these reasons because we don't know how Hashem calculates things, so we can only make guesses.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Meerkat

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1426
  • Yemach Shmam to Egypt and Iran
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2012, 10:01:30 PM »
You can't blame the Satmar Rebbe for taking the Kastner train to save his life.  If someone was in a fire about to be burned to death, G-d forbid, should that person refuse to accept the help of a Christian fireman because he believes in Yoshka?
are you a troll or just f**king retarded?

There is a world of difference between accepting help from people of another religion and selling out his people and letting them die so that one can live.

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #158 on: July 02, 2012, 10:07:09 PM »
are you a troll or just f**king retarded?

There is a world of difference between accepting help from people of another religion and selling out his people and letting them die so that one can live.

The Satmar Rebbe did not sell out his people, that was the evil zionist Kastner and the rest of his Zionist friends. 

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #159 on: July 02, 2012, 10:10:19 PM »
If you choose your own life over other good people ... YOU ARE A SELL OUT!!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #160 on: July 02, 2012, 10:13:34 PM »
If you choose your life over others... YOU ARE A SELL OUT!!

The Satmar Rebbe didn't "choose his life over others."  There was no way he could have saved the Jews of Hungary from the Germans.  He, nor anyone else at the time, knew what was in store for them.  He was not a navi.  Kastner the Zionist knew what was in store for them, though, and he, along with the Zionist leadership of the time, willfully murdered 1 million Hungarian Jews and testified in support of the Jew-butcher SS officer Kurt Becher, saving him from execution and setting him free, all as detailed in "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12584
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #161 on: July 02, 2012, 10:26:05 PM »
Zionism itself caused the Holocaust, as Rav Hutner explained.

Gd and moshe rabeinu were zionists.  Therefore they caused the holocaust and progroms.  The Israelites slaves and korahites who rejected Hashem and moshe rabeinu were wiped out.  So will you and your ilk.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #162 on: July 02, 2012, 10:59:24 PM »
Nobody disagrees that believing a dead man to be moshiach is wrong. I clearly state this in all my postings that I do not believe Rebbe was Moshiach or that he will be Moshiach (any more than my Father will be Moshiach). I just got off the phone with another of my Rabbis who was the Rabbi who initially reached out to me when I made Teshuva and brought me to more Orthodox Jewish observance. He would be considered Modern Orthodox by most people. I asked him where he stood on this issue and he said he was concerned about these beliefs. He said that he has had experience with some Chabad who do believe these beliefs. He said that they are wrong to believe this. But in the end he said that the Chabad organization does not teach this, and most of the new Rabbis don't have this belief, and overall Chabad does a lot of good.


Lubavitch aren't the only ones to have a beloved Rebbe die without children (like Satmar), but whatever the case, it's no reason to forsake reality. Some people have dysfunctional parent-child relationships, others have dysfunctional husband-wife relationships. These people have a dysfunctional Rebbe-chosid relationship.

It's like, nebach a guy whose wife dies. He loves her so much he comes home every night, talks to her, cooks supper for her, and puts her to bed. It's sad, and understandable, but it's messed up.

You guys gotta get a grip. The Rebbe is not alive. Not any more than the Bobover Rebbe or the Satmar Rebbe or the Bluzhever Rebbe or the Klausenberger Rebbe. For a long time there were those in Chabad who "knew" (sic) that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Now they can't accept the fact that all these years they were wrong.  When the Lubavitcher Rebbe was sick after his heart attack, Lubavitchers were saying to everyone don't worry, he will for sure recover. When asked what if he doesn't? The answer was that's unthinkable! Of course he will! He's Moshiach! They were wrong then. the problem is that you have had an unhealthy relationship with your Rebbe that is not of the normal Rebbe-chossid nature. You need something to hold on to? The Torah is still here, Hashem is still here, and the world goes on. The Baal Shem Tov is gone, the Baal HaTanya is gone, my gosh - Dovid HaMelech is gone!

And we have always had Hashem to "hold on to". If you feel you have NOTHING to hold on to in your religion unless you go into denial to believe the Rebbe is alive, then you have worshiped your Rebbe as a religion in himself rather than a teacher of it.

Because Jews have always found something to sustain us, and that's Hashem and his Torah. If that role can't be filled the same way Jews - chasidim and non-chasidim - have filled it thorughout history, with the fact that Hashem and the Torah are always here then that is not right, G-d forbid.

Just because someone calls himself a Lubavitcher Chosid does NOT mean that the "Chasidus" he is practicing today has anything to do with classic Lubavitch Chasidus. The Baal HaTanya would have been the biggest misnagid to this Moshiach/Yechi stuff if he'd be alive today.

Rav Shach stated that he would gladly allow his students in his Yeshiva to learn Tanya, but NOT as taught by today's Lubavitcher Chasidim, because despite the label, they are NOT practicing Chabad Chasidus at all.

Lubavitch has declared their Rebbe the King Moshiach, the Redeemer, the fulfillment of the potential, which nobody has done before, except in cases such as Bar Kochba and Shabse Tzvi r"l.

The Lubavitcher Chasidim have declared their Rebbe to be Moshiach without the assistance of Ruach HaKodesh and the madregos of the ancient Tzadikim who have recognized specific individuals to be a potential Moshiach. Because holy Tzadikim such as Rav Pinchas Koritzer, for example, recognized someone as a potential Moshiach does not mean that every Tom Dick and Harry in the street can do the same.

This "belief" of lubavitch is a distortion of Judaism. And all distorted Judaism is trash. People need to hear not only that this belief is wrong, but how wrong it really is. One of the reasons why people are willing to believe this stuff is because they look at it as just another legitimate Hashkafic disagreement that others dont accept. The reality is that is not so. This is not a Hashkafic disagreement. This is a simple matter of distorting the Torah which is a terrible sin.

It needs to be protrayed like that, that there is no basis for such a belief, that it is merely the product of wishful thinking of some Lubavitchers combined with psychological denial, which, to add insult to injury, they then blame on the Torah by claiming the Torah says it. This needs to be portrayed in the light of what it is - a neurosis, as opposed to a philosophical position.

And when they distort the Torah and teach that their psychological denial is a Torah belief, that it is Chasidus, what they come out with is definitely trash.

the Meshichistin have falsified their sources in their attempt to convince people that the Rebbe is Moshiach, or that the Rebbe is alive. It is they that need to cite proofs, and they have not done so. Not from Chassidishe Seforim, and not from any others. It is merely a fantasy they concoted out of thin air, and it is against the Torah, Chasidishe Seforim as well.

It is often difficult for those who have been brought up Lubavitch to understand the differences between the good and the bad in their community. There are numerous defense mechanisms that they are taught to use, such as "youre a Misnagid" or "youre just anti- Lubavitch" or "how oculd you speak against a tzadik", or "well, we are mekarev so many people, so nobody can say a word against us", instead of responding to the reasons for the opposition.

Lubavitch as a community is all confused.

This is an example of the defence mechanism rampant in Lubavitch that when faced with a criticism of anything they do, they automatically "smell a misnagid", and of course, its only normal for a "misnagid" to not like Chasidim. This way, they can live in peace with what they do and dismiss all objections as coming from "misnagdim."

The greatest Torah scholars of the past few generations have vehemently opposed lubavitch on theological grounds. It makes little sense to say that everyone just hates them for nothing.

If someone has a fantasy that he WANTS his Rebbe to be Moshiach, thats his business. But to declare him to really be Moshiach, which what these people have done, is a terrible sin, not to mention foolishness.

The Chassidic Sefer, "Tefilah LeMosheh" writes that as long as people point out any specific person as Moshiach, it is a terrible sin and prevents Moshiach from coming.

There are reasons why only Lubavitch is vulnerable, and no other Chasidus ever suffered this kind of madness. It has to do with the teachings that they have been given over the past 50 years, teachings which are not shared by any other faction of Jewry, and which cause Lubavitch to earn the opposition of our Torah leaders.

The reason for the strong opposition to Lubavitch in the past generation by our Gedolim is very simple. There have been things taught in Lubavitch that go against important fundamentals of Judaism.

Things that, if you accept them, our entire tradition as we have had it for the past 3,000 years goes out the window.

These things involve the Lubavitch beliefs about G-d, Moshiach, Rebbes in general and particularly the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Chazal, and Halachah. Although this may come as a shock to some people, we need to understand that our Gedolim had did not just develop their revulsion for Lubavtich and their total rejection of it just out of their hats c"v. Rather, it was the result of distortions of the very building blocks of our religion.

Rabbi S.B. Wolpe (a meshichist, author of "Yechi HaMelech" on topics of Moshiach, complete with Haskomos from many Lubavitcher rabbis praising him and his book) in an article from the magazine "Kfar Chabad":

"Moshiach is the atzmus ain sof (essence of G-d Himself) clothed in a body."

As "proof" (sic), he cites a Medrash Yalkut on Tehillim 37:10 that for the final Geulah, Hashem Himself will redeem Klall Yisroel, not a person. So Rabbi Wolpe asks, "isn't Moshiach going to redeem the Jews? So why does it say Hashem will redeem them?"

Answers Rabbi Wolpe: "From this [Medrash] it is proven that Moshiach at the time of the Geulah obvious that he is not really flesh and blood, not even like the flesh and blood of Moshe Rabbeinu, but the [person who is Moshiach] is really Hashem Himself!"

So the Rebbe is Moshiach and Moshiach is G-d Himself. You do the math.

And you expect the Torah leaders NOT to say this is Avodah Zarah?










Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #163 on: July 02, 2012, 11:02:09 PM »
What are you talking about... Going back to attacking Chabad... We have said that none of us here believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. I have never heard a Chabad Rabbi teach this... So why do you continue to intimate that this is accepted belief..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #164 on: July 02, 2012, 11:06:35 PM »
From one of the sites which you appear to have plagiarized:


http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-yechi-5.html

Quote
MODERATOR Posted - 18 April 2001 20:34

NOTE: We have received tons of messages from Lubavitchers disassociating themselves from the Meshichistin and the Yechi sayers.

They would like everyone to know that not all Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive or even that the Rebbe is Moshiach.


Many of them say that the problem is, due to lack of leadership in Chabad, everyone is free to say they represent Lubavitch.

But these people want everyone to know that not all Lubavitchers approve of what the Meshichistin or the Yechi'ers are doing.

All those who have sent such posts, please accept this message as a communal post for all of you.

Thanks.

You also copied most of that posting from http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-reasons-for-strong-opposition.html

At this point I think you are just looking for attention... I think that most people here have formed a negative opinion of you 'jewishwarrior'... You are beating a dead horse at this point..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #165 on: July 02, 2012, 11:34:12 PM »
From one of the sites which you appear to have plagiarized:


http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-yechi-5.html

You also copied most of that posting from http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-reasons-for-strong-opposition.html

At this point I think you are just looking for attention... I think that most people here have formed a negative opinion of you 'jewishwarrior'... You are beating a dead horse at this point..

What are you talking about... Going back to attacking Chabad... We have said that none of us here believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. I have never heard a Chabad Rabbi teach this... So why do you continue to intimate that this is accepted belief..

The nonsensical "proof" that Moshiach is G-d in a body has been used in the past. The following is a quote from Otzar Vikuchim, a collection of the forced debates between Christians and Jews.  On p.209, in the "Debate regarding Moshiach and the Oral Law", the Christian apostate claims that Jesus can indeed be G-d in a body, since -- and again, I promise I am not making this up -- THE MEDRASH YALKUT ON TEHILLIM 37:10 SAYS THAT THE FINAL REDEMPTION WILL BE DONE THROUGH G-D HIMSELF THEREFORE MOSHIACH MUST BE G-D HIMSELF!!!  Rabbi Wolpe's "proof" is hundreds of years old. The exact same Medrash was brought as the exact same "proof" that a human being can be G-d in a body.

And, not surprisingly, the Christian had no better success with the "proof" than Rabbi Wolpe. The Jew proceeds to demonstrate that saying such a thing is Kefirah against the Torah.

Nowhere in the history of Chasidus has such a thing been said -- and remember -- the Rebbe admits he has no source. The only place we find such claims is in Christianity. Word for word, the same claims, the same proofs, from the same sources.

And what can we expect from Gedolei Torah when they see an article by Levi Lezerson (Kfar Chabad 13 Tamuz 5743) called "An End or a Means?" where he discusses if the connection to a rebbe is an end in itself or a means to help us with our growth. His answer:

"Not only is the connection to a Rebbe an end in itself and not a means, but it is the end that has PRECEDENCE OVER EVERYTHING ... for through it, the Neshomah gets the purpose of its original making, before everything, EVEN TORAH AND MITZVOS".

Everywhere else in Klal Yisroel, there is only one End in itself -- the Torah. Rebbes are facilitators for us to do your job of fulfilling Torah and Mitzvos. But in Lubavitch, having a relationship with the rebbe is not only an end unto itself (?!!) but the first and foremost end -- that precedes even Torah and Mitzvos!!!!

What are in fact the Rebbe's "commands"? The lyrics of an old Lubavitch wedding song from the 80's (sung by Yossi Piamenta on one of his albums) describes some of what the "Lubavitcher Rebbe commands" (Mah shetzivah haRebbi M'Lubavitch):

"That all women and girls should light Shabbos candles, and all Jews should put on Tefillin, on all doors should be a Mezuzah, and all houses should have a Tzadakah box ... then Moshiach will quickly come."

Um, no. The Lubavitcher Rebbe said everyone should put on Tefillin? Have Mezuzos on their doors? And although I imagine that those who sing this song, if you were to ask them, would tell you that Hashem was the One Who created this Mitzvah, nevertheless, to attribute your performance of a Mitzvah to a human being, even a Rebbe, is 100% Avodah Zarah.

When you put tefillin on someone or teach Torah to someone, you are NOT the Rebbe's Shliach. The rebbe's shliach means you are doing the Rebbes work on his behalf. You are Hashem's Shliach. The Rebbe taught you how to do Hashem's work. But the work is NEVER called the Rebbes work. To do so is heresy.

This deification of the Rebbe has become, in Lubavitch, has done more damage than merely created an idol, though that's bad enough. Like all distortions of a fundamental of Torah belief, it has caused the violation of actual Halaochos and Mitzvos. Example:

Lubavitcher Chassidim do not sleep in a Sukkah on Sukkos. Note: All Lubavitcher Chassidim in all previous generation did sleep in a sukkah (weather permitting), and NOT A SINGLE REBBE -- CHABAD OR OTHERWISE -- has ever instructed their Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. But the last Rebbe did. His reasoning goes as follows:

1) The previous Rebbe, The Rebbe Rayatz, ate in the Sukkah but did not sleep in it. One would assume it was due to the cold weather or other difficulties involved with sleeping in a Sukah where he lived, which would legitimately dispense him from his obligation. But this cannot be, says the Lubavitcher Rebbe, mere physical difficulties would not bother the Rebbe Rayatz.

2) Therefore, the explanation must be that the Rebbe Rayatz could not sleep in the Sukkah because a different Chabad Rebbe, the "Mitteler" Rebbe, once remarked about the Sukkah, "How can one sleep in such a holy atmosphere". Meaning, says the Rebbe, that it would be impossible to sleep in a Sukkah since it is so holy. And of course, according to Halachah he would be exempt form sleeping in the Sukkah, since the Sukkah bothers him, and Mitztaer Potur Min HaSukah.

3) Therefore, according to the "inner core" of the Mitzvah, sleeping outside of a Sukkah is permitted, and even preferable (Davar Ha'Raui).
4) But the Torah said to sleep in a Sukkah because the Torah speaks to the majority, who cannot feel the holiness of the Sukkah. But those who can, the Torah was never talking to them when it said to sleep in a Sukkah.

5) But the problem is, all the great sages from the days of Chazal down (and before) all slept in the Sukkah. Even in Chabad, the Mitteler Rebbe himself, and his father, the Baal HaTanya, and his son the Tzemach Tzedek, all slept in the Sukkah, as it says in Shulchan Aruch, as well as the Rav Shulchan Aruch of Chabad.

The Rebbe therefore says, that it is not difficult to understand why we do not find previous sages not sleeping in the Sukkah, since their sleeping itself was part of their Avodas Hashem, so they were able to sleep in the Sukkah.

Then he adds: "We can say that the above has to do with the revelation of Toras Chabad, which is meant to deal with the "penimius hatorah" in a way that even the human intellect can perceive it, to the point where it affects even the physical body and soul, and therefore the holiness of the Sukkah effects the person's body and physical nature.

And that is the reason that this Halachic concept was "revealed" by the previsou Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically (for nobody knew of it before), because of his mission in this world.

6) Next step: Even those who are not on the level to feel the holiness of the Sukkah are still exempt from sleeping in it anyway. Why? Because Chasidim, who are connected to their Rebbes follow their Minahgim. (That's a quote). And more: If a Chosid does not follow in the ways of his Rebbe, he is automatically bothered by it, and therefore, he is in the category of "Hamitztaer potur min hasukah".

More, he adds: The chosid is mitztaer, why he isn't mitztaer from the holiness of the Sukkah! He should be bothered, and if he's not, that itself bothers him and therefore exempts him from the Sukkah.

That's it. Obviously, anyone familiar with Halachah will not accept such "reasoning" to rip a Mitzvah out of the Torah. That the Gemora, the Shulchan Aruch, the responsa, and even the Seforim of Chabad all say that sleeping in a Sukkah is an obligation without exception and even the Rebbe Rayatz NEVER exempted his Chasidim from sleeping in the Sukkah even though he should have, according to this reasoning, would be enough to reject this entire idea, never mind the impossibility of the entire reasoning.

And such reasoning would never be accepted anywhere else in Klal Yisroel, because anyone else would say OK so I don't know why the Rebbe didn't sleep in the Sukkah. But he never said we shouldn't, and all the Halachah seforim say we should, so we will. In Lubavitch, however, being "like" the Rebbe takes precedence over following proper Halahcha.

When Rav Shach, saw this "halachic ruling" of the Rebbe he immediately objected in the strongest terms, and used it as an example of how Lubavitch brazenly can twist Halachic methodology and misguide the masses.

And therefore, in the Lubavitch pamphlet of Hilchos Sukkah, published by Tz'ireie Agudas Chabad, in the Halachos of Sukkah, it lists the things one is obligated to do in the Sukkah. It is a quote form the Shulchan Aruch. The word "sleeping" is omitted.

So even kids who have no idea why they are not sleeping in the Sukkah are told not to sleep in the Sukkah, because they are Mitztaer (even though they never felt any Tzar).

This is a clear example of where Chabad changed their own traditions, against Halachah.

Another offshoot of the deification of the Rebbe is the result that it becomes impossible for the Rebbe to make a mistake. While other Rebbes made sure to emphasize that anyone can make a mistake, in Lubavitch this is impossible.

The Kotzker Rebbe pointed out a Maharal that misquoted a posuk in Chumash. How could the Maharal make such an error? He asked? It happened Min HaShamayim, in order to show us that even the great Maharal is human and can make a terrible error (Emes V'Emunah).

The Satmar Rav, too, when he once drank from the second cup of wine at the Seder without making a Brachah (like the Minhag of the Sefardim), he immediately informed his Chassidim: Nobody should think I had a reason not to make the Brachah. I simply made a mistake! (Machzor Divrei Yoel Pesach).

But in Chabad it doesn't work that way. Anyone can make a mistake -- we are all human -- and that includes the Rebbe. In his "Tshuvos Ubiurim" #192 he rules that an internal doorway in a house with only one entrance does not get the Mezuzah put on the right side, but rather we determine the place of the Mezuzah according to Heker Tzir, even when that would mean putting the Mezuzah on the left, "following the opinions of the Rishonim who hold like that".

However, there are no Rishonim who hold like that (of course, no sources are quoted). It was an error. No problem -- we can all make mistakes, even the greatest of the great.

Everywhere else, the response would be to follow the unanimous opinion of the Rishonim and Achronim -- to put the Mezuzah on the right. But in Chabad, the fact that the Rebbe made a mistake becomes impossible, and in the Chabad pamphlets on Hilchos Mezuzah, it invariably instructs people to put the Mezuzah on the left, if the Heker Tzir says so. Even the Maharal can make a mistake -- but not the Lubavitcher Rebbe!

The halachah is that a Mezuzah on the left is like no Mezuzah at all. Not only does Lubavitch elevate their Rebbes to the level of idols, but they also nullify the great level of superiority that our ancients had over our contemporaries, when the contemporaries are the Lubavitcher Rebbes. This includes Moshe Rabbeinu and Chazal. Example:

The lubavitcher rebbe's exact words are: "The alter Rebbe was on a higher madreigah than rav yochanan ben zakai who didn't know what way they would take him, but the rebbe knew he would be in gan eden."

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, could anyone get away with saying that a Rebbe knew what Rav Yochanan ben Zakai did not. The Gemora (Sukah 28a) says that RYB"Z "knew all of Mikrah, Mishnah, Gemora, Halachah, Agadah, Dikdukei Sofrim, Dikdukei Torah, the easy and the hard, the gezeros shovos, fables, big things and small things, namely MAASEH MERKAVAH, and the debates of Rava and Abaye".

In short, we have here a Hashkofo that is new, never before seen in Orthodox Jewry, and flies in the face of many fundamental givens of our religion. All the indiscretions go in the same direction:

The Rebbe is G-d in a body / the Rebbe is on a higher level than Moshe Rabbeinu / the Rebbe knew more than Rav Yochanan ben Zakai / Moshe Rabbeinu didn't know everything / the Rebbe cant make a mistake / the Rebbe commands us to do Mitzvos. Etc. etc. etc.

Is it any wonder that the Chassidim said that the Rebbe would never die? That he didn't die?

It is true that not all of this comes from the Rebbe. But don't forget -- enough does that what the Chasidim added is no longer wild. Based on what they were taught, the Lubavitcher Meshichistin and Yechi-niks are not crazy at all. The problem is, they are assuming their teachings are correct. In reality they are far from it.

And its not only Rav Shach who pointed this out. The brisker Rav, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, and many others were all fire against Lubavitch and its theology. Above is just a sampling of why. There is much more, but this should be enough of a demonstration. Here are some quotes from our Gedolim:

"This meshugener (crazy person) is trying to convince himself that he is Moshiach" (The Brisker rav ZTL after reading the Lubavitcher rebbes' first Drasha upon becoming Rebbe)

"Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism" (Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz ZTL)

"Chachma, Binah and Daas -- but they have no sechel!" (Rav Yitzchok Hutner ZTL)

There are more, severe quotes. But nobody should think that Rav Shach is alone in his opposition to what is obviously not Torah hashkafa. He was merely mimicking the opinions of the Torah giants of the previous generations.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #166 on: July 02, 2012, 11:49:12 PM »
I believe Jesus is the Messiah, he is actually my gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggreat grand father!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #167 on: July 03, 2012, 12:02:16 AM »
I believe Jesus is the Messiah, he is actually my gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggreat grand father!

The problems with Lubavitch have nothign to do with Lubavitch CHassidus, but rather with the past generation of new innovations and changes in the real Chabad traditions and philosophies. 

It says to sleep in the Sukkah in the shulchan aruch and in the chabad halachic works and it is only the past Lubavitcher rebbe that changed what was the Chabad Halachic ruling (and every other posek in the world without a single solitary exception) for generations.

Regarding Seudah Shelishis, the following comes from "Vedibarta Bam", on the Laws of Bentching according to Minhagei Chabad, by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky, page 24,25:

"Question: Why are Chabad Chasidim not stringent about eating a full meal with challah for the third meal, and suffice with just tasting some food?

"Answer: ... However how does one satisfy the stringent ruling of the Alter Rebbe ...that bread should be eaten at the meal?

"The purpose of eating tasty food on Shabbos is strictly to experience "oneg" - delight. If eating, however, is detrimental to a person's health he does nto have to agonize himself to eat ... Hence, one who has reached the level at which he truly feels the exalted spiritual aura during the time of the third meal ... to such a person, eating is a tzar - agony - and he accomplishes his delight by refraining from eating.

"The Rebbes of Chabad 'felt' the spiritual light which shines during the time designated for Shalosh Seudot and therefore refrained from eating. Consequently, the Chassidim who are attached to them follow in their footsteps".

Now this is totally against Halachah. If someone for some reason finds it agonizing to eat that's one thing, but to say that the Chassidim who do NOT find it agonizing to eat are exempt anyway since they follow in the ways of their Rebbes is a typical example of putting the demand to imitate the Rebbes above Halachic obligations. If the rebbe was sick and didnt eat, would the chasidim be entiteld not to eat?

Or if the Rebbe was sick on Yom Kippur and did eat would the chassidim be allowed to eat on Yom Kippur b/c the rebbe is sick?

So if the Rebbe finds it agonizing to eat Sholosh Seudos (which incidently, other Tzadikim did eat even though they were on this level, since on Shabbos, eating becomes Ruchniyus not Gashmiyus), does that exempt the Chosid?  Only if imitating the Rebbe - a monkey-like imitation, since you are not emulating his level but merely mimicking his actions that he did for reasons that do not apply to you - is more important than fulfilling the obligation that hashem in his Torah put on you does this make any sense.

These are a sampling of the problems with Chabad that our Gedolim have had for years and years. These issues have been well known in the Torah world, and are at the crux of the opposition of the Gedolim to Chabad.



Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rabbi Asher Meza exposing Chabad
« Reply #168 on: July 03, 2012, 12:57:24 AM »
No chasidus or any other branch of Orthodox Judaism ever considered their rebbe "the essence and self of G-d in a body" except Chabad since the days of Rabbi MM Scheneerson. Even Chabad was a regular acceptable brand of chassidus until the last 50 years (it started having some issues with the previous rebbe, rayatz, but nothing close to the avodah zorah that we find in it today) .

That reply had nothing to do with my comment.    You are just trolling.    Go get some exercise and take out your frustrations in some other way

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #169 on: July 03, 2012, 01:03:24 AM »
בס''ד

By the Zionists? Yismach Moshe? 
   Hehehe, kind of sensed what would follow:

Quote
Wow, we have a lot of nutjobs joining this forum lately.

You are a "jewishwarrior"? Hahahaha. You anti-Zionist Satmar cowards couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag.   


 :::D :::D :::D


Quote
During the holocaust, the Satmar "rebbe" saved his own tuchus by making a deal with Rudolph Kastner, the head of the Hungarian Judenrat. The "rebbe" got on the notorious Judenrat train out of Hungary together with his family leaving behind hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews who were then murdered by the Germans yimach shmam. The "rebbe" never even warned his own followers to leave Hungary or to resist the Nazis to save their lives. Most of those who trusted the "rebbe" ended up in the Nazi gas chambers and ovens.

And that doesn't even mention beforehand when people were hearing about the war around them and what nazis were doing to Jews elsewhere, he told them it was forbidden to leave to go to the "evil" places America or Israel.   So it was forbidden for them, but ok for him.   

I will edit this to say I do not remember if he also forbade America.   He definitely forbade "Palestine" even though after he was saved he immigrated there and lived there shortly after the war ended, for a brief time.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:55:09 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #170 on: July 03, 2012, 01:05:12 AM »
Have mercy... Have we turned into a Chabad website? What ever happened to saving Israel and America?

Easy bro, it's just one thread.   Usually this type of stuff happens in the Torah section, but this guy had an axe to grind here.

I should link this guy to my recent response to Dr. Dan.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rabbi Asher Meza exposing Chabad
« Reply #171 on: July 03, 2012, 01:08:15 AM »
That reply had nothing to do with my comment.    You are just trolling.    Go get some exercise and take out your frustrations in some other way

I agree. He is copy/pasting from various sites. I have confirmed this by doing google searches on his text. I don't think he has written anything original in all of his posts. He has an agenda and only when his anti-zionist beliefs were exposed, did he respond to Chaims reaction, then he/she/it switched back to copy/pasting the Chabad meshicist controversy {without giving attribution to the sources}.

He is a confirmed anti-zionist. What do we have in common with him? Is he/she/it even really Jewish? Haven't we had trolls which lied about their born faith? I cannot take anything seriously from this member. He doesn't even respond to the questions and the issues which he supposes to respond to.

Why is he continuing to try to prove that Rebbe was not Moshiach. Nobody here suggests he is. The Chabad organization does not impose their minhag on anyone, and they allow all to daven and learn Torah with them. I daven with a diverse group of Jews, some Ashkenaz and some Sefardi, and some Chassidic and others Modern Orthodox. I learn from all of them and cannot condemn them. As I said I have discussed this issue with all of my Rabbis and I can rest assured that I am learning authentic Judaism.

I reject any attempt to make the Rebbe into Moshiach. I respect the customs of Chabad and they teach the Hahachot of Rambam so we know where there are deviations in customs. I knew about the Sukkah issue for many years, it is not something new to me.

This thread has wasted too much time here at JTF. This member does not contribute anything but his continued attempt to slander the entire Chabad organization. I hope that some of the administrators are growing tired of this. I suspect the ultimate goal this troll is attempting is to attack the entire zionist enterprise. It is clear that the Rebbe was supportive of a strong Israel and this is why this troll is attacking Chabad. It was evident to me from the point he used the 'three oaths' to attack Chabad.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #172 on: July 03, 2012, 01:10:16 AM »
"Who fulfills Mitzvos and is an Apikores? Those who blame the Gedolei Yisroel for the holocaust, and also all those who celebrate Yom Haatzmaut" --- Chazon Ish

I don't believe this quote for a second.   But it's irrelevant.   
In Eim Habanim Smeicha, Rav Teichtal ZT"L HY"D accuses antizionist rebbes and ravs throughout Europe of having blood on their hands for preaching to millions of Jews that it is forbidden to fulfill the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisrael.    I believe he is right, and the author of the above quote (whether it's you or whether it really was the Chazon Ish who said that- which I doubt) is incorrect.     We have our own minds and those of us who have read up on the subject can easily decide in this matter.   

Those who haven't read can choose to believe fairy tales and the idiotic kind of half-truths and ignorant propaganda spread about the holocaust by the likes of you and your fellow travelers.   

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #173 on: July 03, 2012, 01:11:11 AM »
Zionism itself caused the Holocaust, as Rav Hutner explained.

Too bad that's not true, though.

Offline jewishwarrior

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #174 on: July 03, 2012, 01:11:17 AM »

And that doesn't even mention beforehand when people were hearing about the war around them and what nazis were doing to Jews elsewhere, he told them it was forbidden to leave to go to the "evil" places America or Israel.

Complete lie.  There is a Teshuva printed by the Satmar Rav about two orphan bochurim who, for various reasons including fear of impending doom, wanted to emigrate to America. The Satmar Rebbe writes that he tells people the truth regarding whether to run or not - that he doesn't know. He is not a Navi, he writes, and he does not know what the future holds in this case. In the particular case of these 2 boys, he writes that he did indeed help them go to America, even though America in those days America was a spiritual danger.