Shalom

[muman613]

KWRBT,


You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...

[muman613]

All the Kabbalah and Chassidus is assuming that the Jew is following the mitzvot which are applicable in the absence of the Beit HaMikdash. There is nothing in these that is essential for a Jew to know, only things which will keep him interested in the study of Hashems ways as learned from mystical sources.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham...

... But you did, though.

Direct quote:   "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."

You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.

But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...

I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that).   But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally.  And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.

Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.   

What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim.   The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's.     Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven.   More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,


You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...

Well I didn't say he figured out the meaning, I said that he claimed to have figured out the meaning.   Or more precisely, he claimed that chabad chassidus figured out the meaning.   That is an outlandish claim, IMO.   I saw this in a youtube video.  The rebbe was giving a speech and said about how chabad chassidus enabled us to understand the para aduma.  I would have to search for it to find it.

[muman613]

... But you did, though.

Direct quote:   "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."

You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.



I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that).   But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally.  And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.

Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.   

What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim.   The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's.     Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven.   More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.

Abraham was not a Jew in the sense that he was not at Sinai... It is said that he kept the Torah.... It is also said that Noah knew what the Kosher animals were despite the Torah not having been given. My point is that the Torah, in a spiritual/mystical sense, existed before the creation of the Jewish people.

I don't know why you insist I am saying something other than this.

[muman613]

Well I didn't say he figured out the meaning, I said that he claimed to have figured out the meaning.   Or more precisely, he claimed that chabad chassidus figured out the meaning.   That is an outlandish claim, IMO.   I saw this in a youtube video.  The rebbe was giving a speech and said about how chabad chassidus enabled us to understand the para aduma.  I would have to search for it to find it.

I have never heard of such a thing. All the Chabad Rabbis teach that the meaning of Parah Aduma is a Chok, which means that there is no RATIONAL MEANING to it...

[muman613]

It is believed that Abraham wrote the Sefer Yetzirah, a Kabbalistic text which pre-dates the Zohar...

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/238,487/Who-wrote-Sefer-Yetzirah-the-Book-of-Creation.html

According to many authorities (Rabbi Saadya Gaon; Bachya; Kuzari; Zohar; Pardes, and others) Sefer Yetzirah was written by Abraham our patriarch. Other sources seem to indicate that it was written by Rabbi Akiba. Some have suggested that the ideas were those of Abraham and were passed down from generation to generation until Rabbi Akiba transcribed them.

[muman613]

You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.

I said that the Torah was the blueprint for creation. I said that the concepts of the Torah {Kashrut, Shabbat, Tefillin, etc.} existed before the Jewish people were even in existence {assuming that the Jewish people became a people once they left Mitzrayim}. The mystical concepts which the Torah includes existed before the Jewish people were 'born' at Mt Sinai.

[muman613]

It is a fact that Sefer Yetzirah existed before the writing of the Talmud because the Talmud mentions this Sefer Yetzirah:


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/271,488/Is-Sefer-Yetzirah-the-Book-of-Creation-mentioned-in-the-Talmud.html

Is Sefer Yetzirah (the Book of Creation) mentioned in the Talmud?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus

Yes. The Talmud Sanhedrin 65b reports that the Talmudic sage Rava created a person and sent it to Rabbi Zeira. Rabbi Zeira spoke to it but it did not reply (because it did not have a human soul it was unable to speak). Rabbi Zeira said to it: “You are a creation of one of my colleagues; return to your dust!” Rashi ad loc. explains that Rava used the teachings of Sefer Yetzirah to create this being. (Rabbi Zeira in turn used the same teachings to destroy the man, uttering the same letters as did Rava but in reverse order [Ben Yehoyada].)
The Talmud continues with another tale: Rav Chanina and Rav Oshaya would sit together every eve of the Sabbath and delve into Sefer Yetzirah. A calf would be created for them and they would eat it.

Rashi (ibid 67b) explains that they would form various permutations of the Divine Name with which He created the world and a calf would therefore come into being.

So there you go.

See also Jerusalem Talmud 7:13.

[The One and Only Mo]

You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.

He would never do that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Abraham was not a Jew in the sense that he was not at Sinai... It is said that he kept the Torah.... It is also said that Noah knew what the Kosher animals were despite the Torah not having been given. My point is that the Torah, in a spiritual/mystical sense, existed before the creation of the Jewish people.

I don't know why you insist I am saying something other than this.

Because you did say something other than this.  It's in your own words.

it doesn't make sense to say avos or anyone before sinai practiced judaism, even if you want to say they followed Torah principles and laws in some ways.  Still not the same thing.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.

Don't you get the fact that it doesn't make sense to accuse me of a straw man when I quoted you directly in your own words?

Now, what are these "mystical aspects" you speak of?  Do you know that there are different ways to interpret verses and you have no proof of how Jews in the midbar viewed these things?
Citing the old age of mysticism as a proof of authority really doesn't help you.  Especially when the text doesn't emerge until the 1300s and some key beliefs of kaballah are plainly contradicted. In the writings of the gaonim

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is a fact that Sefer Yetzirah existed before the writing of the Talmud because the Talmud mentions this Sefer Yetzirah:

I fail to see how that matters.  Sefer yetzirah doesn't contain modern kabala in it. 
2. If sefer yetzirah existed before the writing of the talmud, what does that mean about sefer yetzirah?  Please elaborate on this point (if there is one).

3.  Bear in mind, the talmud wasn't written probably until at least the 700's and some say even later.  Why is this relevant?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ignoring for a moment the fact that sefer yetzirah does not contain zohar or modern kabalah in it, I pose the following:

Does something become true because it's old?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He would never do that.

Great post.  So mature and intellectual.

So tell me, how do I twist muman's words by quoting him directly?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Just because the Talmud mentions something they call "Sefer Yetzirah" (book of creation) and then many years later a book pops up titled Sefer Yetzirah doesn't mean it's the original Sefer Yetzirah.  The same situation exists with the Sefer HaYashar, which is mentioned in the Tanach books of Joshua and Samuel.  There are books written much later claiming to be that book but they aren't the original.

That could be.  But can you really be sure it's not the original?

[Sveta]

I am sorry to restart an old topic but I am constantly in completely shock over Asher Meza and his work- which I completely disagree on. I was happy to find this statement by the Yemenite rabbi who was not afraid to speak up. Asher Meza and Yosef Eliyah may call themselves rabbis all they want, but I would have to see proof of that. There is no shame in being a convert at all either. It's a beautiful thing to become Jewish, and while Yosef Eliyah is open about his conversion... the other gentleman that the Yemenite rabbi speaks about dodges the born-Jewish question. No big deal, people have a right to privacy, and no one should ever remind someone who converts that they were once not Jewish. So no one should embarrass him with the conversion question. My only problem with it is why deny a personal halachic giyur on oneself while openly making videos telling gentiles they can perform their own conversions (without the authority of a real Beis Din) and to not follow the Noach laws (rather than referring them to the real conversion process?). I just don't get it. Is halahcic giyur only good enough for him and not for the other gentiles who are misguided enough to "convert" themselves or through his unrecognized mass "conversions" that his organization performs every once in a while in the ocean? (I have seen pictures, these people dip in the ocean and are told their conversions will not be recognized but they get a certificate declaring them Jewish)

I saw a video where this man was being interviewed and the interviewer asked him "what is your ethnic background?" he answers "hispanic". Interviewer asks him "how long can you trace your lineage" he answers "I was born in New Jersey and my family is from Columbia but we have no family tree that I can trace. If anything we are Jews by Halacha". Interviewer then asks "we you raised a practicing Jew though?" he replies "no". The interviewer obviously has no clue. So, it's ok for someone who converts to be super private about their status. It's the right of each and every person who does giyur. BUT let's be honest, there are times where one must be honest about their giyur status. For example, when signing up kids into a Jewish school, you need to show proof. When  your kids want to get married and you have to fork over proof of Jewishness, when you want to make Aliyah to Israel. But what about rabbis? Are they under the obligation to be open about their conversion status? A rabbi is supposed to be open to the public, doing kiruv, being open- must they be open if they had converted? Especially if someone who converted wants to be a "conversion rabbi" and wants to preside over conversions... Is this even possible?

In any events, Meza and his colleague Yosef Eliyah are both "rabbis" of the same congregation and here is the Dor Deah "shul" that they operate. It has no chairs at all, none.. instead it has islamic prayer mats. And they even call it a Jewish mosque, you can see Yosef Eliyah in the video. Many moslims are even commenting about how this is how Jews should pray...praising "Allah". It's one thing to say "this is what Synagogues used to look like for Mizrahi Jews 100 years ago" than to say "this is a Jewish mosque in the praise of allah". Plenty of more disturbing videos too. But I'll stop myself.

Now, how are these two "rabbis" again?

[Zelhar]

I suspect they mimic other aspects of Islam as well, some in secrete, because they are few and weak. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I suspect they mimic other aspects of Islam as well, some in secrete, because they are few and weak.

 they do. This Eliyahu fellow over and over says "allah hu ........." and other such non-sense. Its too bad we got "converts" like these who just go around mocking, yes mocking Torah scholars, mocking Noahides, mocking authentic Judaism that they claimed to convert to. Then when one questions their practices they right away block you from their channels.
 This group originally had 3 of them. One of the 3 officially converted to Islam. The other 2 claim to be practicing Judaism while doing what they are and teaching things AGAINST Judaism.

 * Note she was NEVER Jewish to begin with.