One of my relatives is voting for Obama

[The One and Only Mo]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

[muman613]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

That is too bad... I also dont agree with his 'excuse'. Hashem judges us based on our action, true Hashem will take care of Israel no matter what, but your relative has decided to side with the enemies of Israel and thus he/she may be judged for the worse.

Baruch Hashem I don't think any of my family will be casting a vote for the Jew-hating muslim.

[cjd]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

Remind them to apply for their free cell phone... They should be sure they get everything they got coming and G-d willing they will.

[Rubystars]

Most of my family is conservative like I am so that helps but I do have one family member I'm really concerned about in this area. She doesn't vote which is good right now, but she has some left wing beliefs.

[The One and Only Mo]

I just want to stress that the relative is not one of my parents. Thank G-d by dad is normal (after all, he introduced me to JTF), and my mom listens to me (she also happens to be a fan of Chaim, frequently cracking up at many of his jokes).

[briann]

Nearly all of mine are voting for Obama....    well... at least I live in California... so their vote doesnt matter anyway.

[AsheDina]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

They are nuts and its not your fault.

HaShem WILL protect Israel, regardless, but that is NO reason to vote for a Muslim from Kenya FOR America.

[HiWarp]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

Well, if your relative is okay with giving up some of his or her liberty in exchange for receiving "social help", whatever the hell that means, I guess it's just fine. Just make sure to let them know that the free stuff is going to be very short lived since we don't live in a vacuum; any increase in taxes and additional regulations on businesses will eventually translate to increased costs for the consumer and, unless your relative in fully dependent on the government and pays nothing out of pocket, that will include him or her as well. So at the end of the day we will have less personal liberty, higher prices, less money, and we'll be more dependent on government. Sounds like a winning strategy to me!

[BritishSword]

Nearly all of mine are voting for Obama....    well... at least I live in California... so their vote doesnt matter anyway.

Because these are relations we're talking about I'd better ask permission before cursing the lot of them!

I'm glad to say none of my relations are voting for Obama.

Come to think of it none of my relations are living in america.

[Dr. Dan]

Despite my urging, this relative of mine is voting for Obama. The relative apparently will get more social help from Obama than Romney. The relative believes that Hashem will protect Israel no matter who is in office.

I'm sorry to hear this Mo.  Unfortunately this relative isn't doing his part for the sake of Israel since while it is usually 100% Hashem in saving Israel especially when she's threatened and outnumbered.  However, just to sit and pray and say, "Oh Gd will take care of us no matter what," isn't a wise choice.  Yes, Gd may take care of us no matter what, but I would rather die fighting instead of die waiting for Gd showing up.  We should always try and do our part instead of rely on miracles.

And the same goes with voting for Obama. On the one hand, having Obama as president will help with his financial situation according to your relative, right?  Tell your relative that if he is so certain that Gd will help Israel no matter what, why he won't rely on Gd to help him get out of his financial situation by simply being righteous and voting against Obama, the Nazi Jew hater?

I think you will win that argument. You need to tell him, "Wait a second...here you are, uncle so and so, saying that you can rely on Gd to save Israel, but cannot rely on Gd to save you? And that's why you would vote for Haman to save you?  It's a contradiction.  Rather, uncle so and so, you should do the right thing and voting for the more righteous gentile, and based on the merit of righteous behavior, Gd will answer you and reward you by taking you out of your financial distress into a better situation than you would be under Obama's presidency."

[BritishSword]

Don't curse Jews for your own sake. Pray for their sanity.

Chaim occassionally curses self-hating jews who by omission or comission help the enemies of Israel, so it is done, but yes of course I tread extremely carefully in that area.

[muman613]

I would reserve cursing a Jew for those who are obviously evil. What makes one obviously evil? That is open for interpretation. But when dealing with family we should be more merciful in our judgments. And since the Nation of Israel is considered a family, in general the Torah frowns on cursing a Jew.

As long as there is hope that one can be turned around the cursing should be delayed. Baruch Hashem in my family I have had a lot of great progress in getting them to see the right way {conservative}. My mother was a typical NY Liberal Jewess for most of her life and only recently has she seen the light. My father was always a right-winger and I am glad he was able to see me come back to the right before his death.

Basically the Torah looks down on cursing a Jew because of the command "Do not curse the deaf".

Here it is brought down from RAMBAMS Mishne Torah:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1172749/jewish/Chapter-26.htm

Chapter 26

Halacha 1
Anyone who curses one of the judges of Israel transgresses a negative commandment, as Exodus 22:27 states: "Do not curse a judge." Similarly, if a person curses a nasi, whether the head of the Supreme Sanhedrin or a king, he transgresses a negative commandment, as the verse continues: "Do not curse a prince among your nation."

This prohibition does not apply only to a judge or a nasi. Instead, anyone who curses any other Jew receives lashes, as Leviticus 19:14 states: "Do not curse a deaf-mute." Why does the verse mention a deaf-mute? To teach you that even when a person who cannot hear and thus will not be bothered by being cursed, the person pronouncing the curse is lashed. It appears to me that a person who curses a child who is embarrassed receives lashes; the child resembles a deaf-mute.

Halacha 2
A person who curses a deceased person is not liable.

Since a person who curses any Jewish person is liable, why did the Torah set aside a special prohibition for a judge and for a nasi? For the person to be liable for two transgressions. Thus we learn that a person who curses any Jew, whether a man, woman, or child receives one set of lashes. If he curses a judge, he receives two sets of lashes. If he curses a nasi, he receives three sets of lashes. And if the son of a nasi curses his father, he is liable for four transgression, the three for which all others are liable and one for cursing his father.

Halacha 3
A person who curses himself receives lashes just as one who curses others, as Deuteronomy 4:9 states: "Take heed and guard your soul."

Whether a person curses himself, a colleague, a nasi, or a judge, he does not receive lashes unless he curses using one of G-d's names: Yaw, Elohim, Shaddai, or the like, or with one of the descriptive terms used to characterize G-d, e.g., the Merciful One, the Vengeful One, or the like. Since a person is liable if he cursed a colleague with any of these descriptive terms, he is also liable if he cursed him in any other language. For the names with which the gentiles refer to the Holy One, blessed be He, are comparable to all of these descriptive terms.

The term arur ("cursed") can imply an oath, a curse, and a ban of ostracism.

http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/8968/jewish/Negative-Commandment-317.htm

[muman613]

From Sefer HaMitzvot (Book of Mitzvot) this mitzvah is #231...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/kisetze71.htm

Mitzvah 231:
Not to Curse a Fellow-Jew (cont.)

Perhaps one can attribute the fact that a curse is effective to the fact that the Soul of speech stems from the upper realms, as the Pasuk writes in Bereishis (2:7, in connection with the creation of Adam) " … and He breathed into his nostrils a Soul of life and man became a living Soul, 'a spirit that speaks'. G-d therefore endowed the ability to speak with the power to achieve things that are beyond the physical world in which it operates. This explains why we constantly see that, according to the loftiness of the person, and to the extent that he cleaves to spirituality, the words of Tzadikim take effect swiftly regarding the person on whom they pronounce them. This is something that is well-known among people with a deeper perception.

Another reason for the prohibition is in order to prevent discord between one person and the other, but rather to promote peaceful relations between them; since "the birds of the Heaven will carry the voice", and the curse that one utters becomes known to the person concerned, resulting in bad relationships between people.

Whereas the reason given by the Rambam for this prohibition is in order not to elicit revenge and instill anger in the person that one is cursing, since anger is an evil Midah. He elaborates on this point in his Seifer. In any event, he seems to believe that a curse per se, is ineffective, so no harm will befall the person who has been cursed; and the Torah forbids it only because cursing results in anger and revenge.

Some Dinim of the Mitzvah … Although the Gemara in Shavu'os (35a) forbids cursing under any circumstances, someone who does so does not receive Malkos unless he curses using one of the Names of G-d, such as Koh, Shakai, Elokah, or one of His Kinuyin (descriptive Names), such as 'Chanun' or 'Kano' and suchlike. And someone who does is Chayav, irrespective of which language he curses in - including Names of G-d, since any Name of G-d in any language falls under the heading of 'Kinuyin'.

[muman613]

But let me make it clear, I do not suggest that Chaims curses against traitors to the Jewish people are in violation of the intent of the commandments. I myself curse some Jews who are 'Obviously Evil' and I believe this falls under the command to Hate Evil and to Remove Evil from our midst.

What is the Jewish view on hate?
by Rabbi Mendy Hecht

A. Firstly, hate is misunderstood. Hate is misconstrued. Hate is equated with things it is not. Hate has been branded the darkest evil, so much so that it has become the most feared subject: discussing it is the height of political incorrectness--and squeamishness. But if any and all hate is evil, how can you hate Nazism? How can you hate racism? How can you hate rape and murder? How can you hate hate?

B. Let's define hate: Hate is a normal human emotion, like love. As a matter of fact, they are opposites. Hate rejects, love accepts. Hate is separation, love is connection. If you absolutely cannot hate, then you absolutely cannot love, either. It's just a question of what you do with them: hate can make you a hero (Batman hates muggers), love can get you locked up (stalking pretty girls). So is hate bad? Is love good? No, no: it depends on whom or what you're hating or loving.

Having safely established that the PC Police will not come after you upon admitting that hate is alive and well, let's lay down what Judaism's view on hate is.

1. You're squeamishness about hate is valid: most hate is wrong--but that's because most hate today is expressed by violating the civil, property or religious rights of others. On the other hand, if your hate for something so morally appalling and antithetical to your beliefs causes you to avoid or even civilly protest it, that is good hate. It is absolute rejection of something you ought to be absolutely rejecting. So it's not the hate as much as it is the crime. Hate has been equated with crime, because it's most often expressed by a crime.

2. Even good hate needs to be extremely controlled and limited. One of the most fundamental Mitzvahs of the Torah is the imperative to love your fellow as yourself. Hatred towards other human beings without legitimate cause is antithetical to that ideal (to say the least). Hate is only ok as a true rejection of something wrong, and may not be the an expression of your own offended ego, or your jealousy of someone else's ego. Hate must also be a catalyst for constructive growth, and not a cause for paralyzing depression or destruction.

[muman613]

One more on the concept of 'Good' hatred:


http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5770/vayigash.html

It is right to passionately hate evil people, such as Amalek and all those who consciously follow in his ways. It is also right to hate the evil within us and others, in whatever amount it occurs. But, it is not right at all to hate ourselves for our mistakes or spiritual weaknesses, or those of our fellow Jews who clearly are, for the most part, good people who mean well. How much more so is this true for a fellow Jew who clearly makes a concerted effort to live a Torah lifestyle.

Psalm 97 is emphatic: “You who love G-d must hate evil.”
Proverbs 8 declares, “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.”
Amos 5 demands, “Hate the evil and love the good.”
And Isaiah 5 warns, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil.”
And concerning the wicked, King David declares unequivocally, “I have hated them with a perfect hatred. They are become enemies to me.” (Psalm 139)

[BritishSword]

Muman
I am once again overawed by your massive and demonstrable wisdom and knowledge.
This is a topic that will require much thought
For now I need to work on something for the debates.

LKZ
If you become a christian then you will understand christianity and then you'll get to quote christian scripture to me.
Otherwise kindly refrain.
I say this with as much friendship and respect as I can muster.

[muman613]

Muman
I am once again overawed by your massive and demonstrable wisdom and knowledge.
This is a topic that will require much thought
For now I need to work on something for the debates.

LKZ
If you become a christian then you will understand christianity and then you'll get to quote christian scripture to me.
Otherwise kindly refrain.
I say this with as much friendship and respect as I can muster.

Thank you BritishSword.... I enjoy researching these issues when people ask me to. I use a 'Kosher Search Engine' to help find these articles...

I also hope to deliver a 'secret message' to you before this week ends...

[BritishSword]

Muman's a bright light, no denying that's right.
...etc etc
I am still trying to become more Jewish, as I am called to be a religious Jew, just how I don't know and surely some of my beliefs will have changed by then, as they seem to do every six months, but I remain a Christian at heart, even though I can't deny a boundless love for the Jewish people and an over-powering connection to the land of Israel.

So there you go, secret #umpteen I think I'm a Christian Jew, and I try to use both belief systems in my reasoning, but I am still convinced there can be only right answer, and that quote fits into that, but Judaism is right, everything I know and have heard about it is, so I'm pretty sure I need to create a new belief system, because the messianic Jews are heretics to both religions and a nut basket of loons (not the cult I was in).

Let me clarify my requirements then.
My official denonimation is Russian Orthodox Christian a very clear and established path.
  Your so called christian background is unacceptable as you said yourself it was a communist cult.  You now 'Think' your a christian Jew. I'm not sure there can be any such thing, I don't have the authority to reprimand you on that however.
  You also said you need to create a new belief system... well when you've created it for sure then feel free to post your thoughts - not debate as it is not allowed.
  The best way I can describe your belief system at the moment is confused.

To be clear I will not accept quotes from the novaya testament unless it is from a well established diocese preferably Russian Orthodox and not catholics or J.....hs witnesses.

[cjd]

Let me clarify my requirements then.
My official denonimation is Russian Orthodox Christian a very clear and established path.
  Your so called christian background is unacceptable as you said yourself it was a communist cult.  You now 'Think' your a christian Jew. I'm not sure there can be any such thing, I don't have the authority to reprimand you on that however.
  You also said you need to create a new belief system... well when you've created it for sure then feel free to post your thoughts - not debate as it is not allowed.
  The best way I can describe your belief system at the moment is confused.

To be clear I will not accept quotes from the novaya testament unless it is from a well established diocese preferably Russian Orthodox and not catholics or J.....hs witnesses.

Na I want my quotes from a higher authority... I only consult the teachings of Reverend Sun Myung Moon 

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

@LKZ, Why are J....  Witnesses Dumb and heretical?

[TruthSpreader]

That is terrible news. Have you told him he hates Jews?

[TruthSpreader]

I tried explaining it to a relation of mine too, and at this point he simply refuses to support either candidate.

That's a shame. One less vote hurts Romney.

[The One and Only Mo]

The relative doesn't want his/her benefits (welfare, whatever it is that really poor people get under Obama) to be taken away by Romney. He/she claims that Romney will be bad for the poor. Now, I admit, I don't know much about Obama's or Romney's policies for the poor, so I can't really argue.  All I know is that Obama wants, and will likely get, more land for the Arabs. I can't tell people what their priorities should be, but I did make it clear that to this relative that he/she would find the truth at JTF.org. The relative also posted this, which, in my opinion, could be very persuasive to somebody unaffiliated with JTF.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barbra-streisand/obama-vs-romney-a-clear-c_b_1894001.html

[Debbie Shafer]

Hashem will also judge the nations that curse Israel....and that time is coming in Ezekiel and it isn't going to be pretty!  America and a President who treat Israel with disrespect and hatred, are going to be judged...This is totally correct....many Pastors have confirmed this sentence!