Author Topic: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government?  (Read 3177 times)

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Offline White Israelite

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Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government?
« on: March 07, 2013, 12:45:58 AM »
Lets theorize on Israel's economy under a righteous Kahanist government, this is something that has always interested me and I really think we have many intelligent people here, I myself am very interested in the economy of other countries and importing/exporting.

Right now you can see what Israel currently exports and imports

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

Exports   $62.5 billion FOB (2011 est.; 54th)
Export goods   high technology products, military equipment, machinery and machinery based equipment, computer hardware and software, cut diamonds, agricultural products and foodstuffs, chemicals, textiles and apparel

Israel has a lot of high technology exports such as FAB process for large microprocessor manufacturers, also advanced medicine, agricultural technology, machinery, optics, etc.

Israel also has a large military industry and contractors which is a good self defense industry

Other industries that are not as dominant are primarily energy sources, automobile, raw resources, grains, etc.

We can look at what Israel relies on in terms of imports

Import goods   raw materials, military equipment, motor vehicles, consumer electronics, investment goods, rough diamonds, fuels, grain, consumer goods


Now lets look at Israel's trading partners

Main export partners   United States 32.1%, Hong Kong 6.3%, India 5.1%, Belgium 5.1% (2010)

Main import partners   United States 12.8%, China 8.1%, Germany 6.3%, Belgium 5.8%, Switzerland 4.6%, Italy 4.2% (2010)


If you look at the economy, it is mainly dependent on exports and imports to the United States with china following closely.

Tourism also largely helps Israel with visits to the Dead Sea, Jerusalem, Eilat, archaeology tourism, Eco tourism, and even Religious tourism.

One thing that we need to remember is that many politicians in Israel are willing to compromise on Israel's security and sovereignty to maintain the economy, contracts and business and therefore it is very important we look at the trade offs and what could be affected, how it could benefit Israel and how it could also hurt Israel in respects to the economy.

Theoretically we need to assume how the rest of the world would view Israel with a Kahanist government in power, we can assume at least in the Muslim countries that based on their disapproval, other counties that support or rely on the Muslim countries would end up not wanting to do business with Israel or would cease exports/imports. We can look at South Africa as an example when sanctions were placed on them and there was a lot of harm caused to the economy, this does NOT mean israel should compromise its government or sovereignty in fear of economic boycott.

We just need to look at this from a realistic angle, what countries would Israel want to do business with and forge relationships with, and how would those countries benefit from Israel and Israel benefit from them? I can name a couple

tourism is probably a very strong opportunity for Israel but the problem is today tourism to Israel is done for the wrong reasons, Israel currently has a ad campaign about its beaches and women dressing immodestly, if tourism were to be done, it could focus on historical tours, archaeological, Eco tourism tours, religious pilgrims, food tourism (a lot of the kosher Israeli food is very delicious), etc. Israel has many airlines that would of course profit from this but also account that flight would not fly on Friday and Saturday in accordance to sabbath, that would be more of a blessing to God and I am sure a blessing to Israel.

Defense/military contracts, Israel already has several military contracts with many countries but is limited due to politics. Israel currently has large military contracts with India, Colombia, the United States, Germany, etc. Israel has large security companies and military advisors, large defense contractors who sell all over the world. Many small arms are in use by private security firms or other industries unfortunately Israel also exports weapons to many of her enemy nations which account for some of the income, a country also cannot purely rely on military exports as sales can and do slow when nations are not in conflict, therefore an economy based on the defense industry would be understandable in nations fighting against terrorism or other insurgencies such as those fighting on the war on drugs.

Technology exports is going to be a big one, Israel is a huge manufacturer of fab process which is a high tech process, as nations rely on electronics, and Israel specializes in smaller transistors and the best computer and electrical engineers the world has to offer, I see this as beneficial but exclude Israel's enemies. I believe large multinational companies will invest in Israel for decades because of this.

Medical tourism, Israel has some of the best medical care in the world, I see this as a big industry for attracting the sick, people who need transplants or treatments, diagnosis.

Agricultural, Israel also has formed relationships with countries where water is scarce with slow drip technology and the ability to irrigate land that generally would have very poor soil content, I believe that advisors will be very necessary in countries where this technology is very heavily desirable.

Now for concerns on imports, we need to associate what Israel requires, Israel as of this moment is not self sustaining as some of the other 3rd world dictatorships who have unlimited supplies of oil or a huge industrial sector where countries can act as a one trick pony. Israel currently relies on other countries for oil, raw materials, and some consumer goods which is a concern.

Israel has good economic relationships with the US, India, China, and Colombia, many materials such as textiles, consumer goods, certain imports of food, grains, materials are Imported from these countries.

Please feel free to list your ideas on effects, positive or negative aspects, etc.

Thanks

« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 07:58:35 PM by White Israelite »

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 01:44:29 AM »
I think it would be great to see how many arabs would leave under a more Jewish state, and see how much it would cost in order to give them an incentive to leave. We would also have to make sure that they would be able to immigrate to some other country. In the conversations I have had with Jews who attend Chabad (of various backgrounds) here in CA the only sticking point is whether we 'kahanists' intend on 'killing them' if they don't leave on their own. I realize there may be those who will continue to resist, and it will need some threat of violence to completely implement such a transfer.

If we expect more support from the middle-of-the-road pro-Zionists we need to come up with a way of quantizing whether this incentive transfer plan can really work.

Regarding the economy.... It would be tough to gauge considering the BSD kooks who boycott all Israeli business. I would hope the Jews would invest in Israeli technology as I believe that is where the economic hope of Israel lies.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 01:48:08 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703806304576242420737584278.html
Quote
What kind of abundance? The World Energy Council estimates Israel's shale deposits, located some 30 miles southwest of Jerusalem, could ultimately yield as many as 250 billion barrels of oil. For purposes of comparison, Saudi Arabia has proven reserves of 260 billion barrels. The United States consumes about seven billion barrels a year
Given both the economic,  diplomatic and political impact that developing Israel's oil shale into usable oil would have, I would think a Kahanist government would cut all the red tape possible to speed up the development of this oil.

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2013, 05:42:50 PM »
We are aware of your excuses for anti-zionism and we reject them.

Most Rabbis agree that the three oaths were violated by the goyim and are no longer in effect. Also after the Balfour declaration and the partition plan it was clear that the nations were prepared to return the land to us, so we did not go in by force...

Nowhere in the Torah or Tanakh does it say that Jews must go like sheep to the slaughter, and implying such is one cause of Jew hatred in the world. The Torah tells us Jews 'If one should rise to kill you, kill them first', there is not a command to die at the hands of the non-Jew. We have a right and a need to protect ourselves from those who seek to destroy us. The Tanakh is full of examples of Jews who stood up against those who want to kill us, just look at the story of Purim where the Jews went out and massacred all those who were prepared to destroy the entire Jewish nation.

You bigborus are just as wrong as the generation of the spies who speak lashon hara against the land, and against the Jews who see the hand of G-d in the return of the Jewish people to the land. In my opinion it is Jews like you who bring much shame to the Jewish people, who would rather die and be treated like trash than stand up for Hashem and his honor.

Shame on you and your twisted understanding.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2013, 05:53:36 PM »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2013, 05:56:58 PM »
Quote
anti-semtism and deaths caused by having the State

You are a nazi.

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2013, 05:58:51 PM »
Yes, spiraling leopard, antisemitism existed long before the establishment of the state, long before Rabbi Kahane was born, and cannot be blamed on the state.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 06:06:28 PM »
I do not think that bigboris was a nazi, just a Jewish anti-zionist who subscribes to the mistaken belief that we are violating a set of oaths which are outlined in the Song of Songs regarding the promise the Jewish people make to not enter the land by force. I have discussed these oaths several times here in order to explain the position of these Jewish anti-zionists.

I strongly disagree with them and so long as they do not join the enemy against us, I do not hate them..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 07:30:25 PM »
Who is bigboris?
I think he and his comments were removed ...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 07:59:30 PM »
I think he and his comments were removed ...

Yes, so it seems... But I would have liked to refute this argument because it is not a 'fringe' or outlandish thing which he said. While it is clear that the religious anti-zionist has his or her reasons for believing as they do we should be able to answer these issues if we expect to be able to swing any of these Jews to our side. Rather than just outright banning them and deleting their comments, we should be able  to answer them. As the Pirkie Avot says, "Know how to answer a heretic".... While I dont think all anti-zionists are heretics, I think that we should provide sources and sages who answer the questions posed by the Three Oaths...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2013, 08:27:44 PM »
Yes, so it seems... But I would have liked to refute this argument because it is not a 'fringe' or outlandish thing which he said. While it is clear that the religious anti-zionist has his or her reasons for believing as they do we should be able to answer these issues if we expect to be able to swing any of these Jews to our side. Rather than just outright banning them and deleting their comments, we should be able  to answer them. As the Pirkie Avot says, "Know how to answer a heretic".... While I dont think all anti-zionists are heretics, I think that we should provide sources and sages who answer the questions posed by the Three Oaths...
I would like to know more about the Three Oaths...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 08:35:50 PM »
I think that all Jewish anti-Zionists are hereitcs. Confucius says listening to the words of the wicked is the beginning of wickedness.

What is your response to the question of the three oaths? This is not a joke? This is the reason a great segment of the Jewish world will not accept the current state. You cannot just label them heretics unless you bring sources and sages to support your position.

Who are you to say that they are speaking wickedness? Maybe it is you who are wicked? They are concerned for the welfare of the Jewish people and their concern is genuine.


Also who gives a F what confucious says when discussing Jewish matters? Judaism is a religion which believes in honest debate, not labeling and name-calling...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 08:38:27 PM »
I would like to know more about the Three Oaths...

Search the JTF archives for 'three oaths' and you will find that I have posted on it at least once or twice a year over the years..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2013, 08:40:03 PM »
I will reproduce one excerpt which I posted earlier this year...

http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/insites/ks-dt-111.htm

Quote
1) THE THREE OATHS OF HASH-M
QUESTION: The Gemara infers from the verse in Shir ha'Shirim (2:7) that Hash-m made two oaths with the Jewish people and one with the nations of the world. The first oath He made with the Jewish people was that the Jewish people will not rebel against the nations of the world. The second oath He made with the Jewish people was that they will not band together and come to Eretz Yisrael by force, like a fortifying wall ("she'Lo Ya'alu Yisrael b'Chomah"). The oath He made with the nations was that they will not subjugate the Jewish people excessively. The Gemara infers from the verse that the consequence of transgressing the oath is that the flesh of the people will become Hefker like the flesh of animals.

If failure to abide by the oaths is punishable, then there must have been an acceptance of the oath by both sides. Where, though, do we find that the Jewish people (or the nations of the world) accepted these oaths?

Moreover, do the warnings contained in these oaths appear anywhere in the Torah? Since a prophet is not permitted to add anything to the Torah (Megilah 3a), it must be that the Torah already prohibits the actions proscribed by the oaths. The Jewish people may not rebel against the nations of the world because the Torah states that only Mashi'ach will have the prerogative to do this. For the same reason, they may not forcefully come to Eretz Yisrael (see following Insight). The nations of the world certainly do not have any right to oppress the Jewish people, even without the oath.

The question remains, however, what is the purpose of these oaths, and in what way is the punishment for their transgression a logical consequence measure for measure?

ANSWERS:
(a) The SEFER HA'AKEIDAH says that the oath that Hash-m made with the Jewish people in the Midbar (see Parshas Netzavim) established an interminable covenant between Hash-m and the Jewish people. By telling the Jewish people that their continued existence depends on their fulfillment of these warnings, Hash-m ensured that at least some part of the Jewish people will always observe these warnings and the nation will not suffer total annihilation.

The Sefer ha'Akeidah explains that this potential annihilation is not a punishment for transgressing the oath, for such a punishment certainly would need mutual consent. Rather, Hash-m told the Jewish people that He will protect them from the nations of the world only if they fulfill the oath. If they do not fulfill the oath, Chas v'Shalom, then Hash-m will leave the Jewish people unprotected, and consequently they will be like Hefker, like animals being hunted (as the Gemara says). This does not need the consent of the Jewish people; Hash-m protects us, and if we are unworthy of His protection He will no longer provide it. In this manner, we may be assured that the Jewish people will always merit Hashem's protection.

The Sefer ha'Akeidah's explanation may be applied to the Gemara here as well. The Torah forbids the Jewish people from transgressing these oaths even without an actual acceptance of them. The point of the oaths is to show the Jewish people that their very existence depends on fulfilling the conditions of the oaths, for if they fail to do so they will forfeit the Divine protection on which their existence depends. This knowledge certainly will stop them from going astray.

The oath made with the nations of the world may also be explained in this way. Although the nations constantly attempt to destroy the Jewish people, there often exist elements among the nations which unexplainably seek to give the Jewish people a respite, because they are aware on some level that without the Jewish people in the world, the world itself would cease to exist.

(b) The AVNEI NEZER (YD 444) explains that the Shevu'ah of the nations was actually made with their governing counterparts ("Sarim") in Shamayim who accepted the Shevu'ah and accepted not to incite their nations against the Jewish people. If they fail to abide by the oath, they are duly punished, for "when Hash-m punishes the nations, He punishes their heavenly governors first" (Mechilta, as quoted by Rashi to Shemos 4:9 and 11:5). When the nation's "Sar" is destroyed, the nation itself is destroyed as well.

Similarly, the oaths of the Jewish people were made with their Neshamos which accepted upon themselves to teach the bodies not to transgress. If the body fails to listen and transgresses, the body is not punished because it did not accept the oath. However, the connection to its Neshamah is broken because it did not listen to its Neshamah and no longer deserves that connection. Hash-m protects the Jewish people only because of their Neshamos. Accordingly, if they do not listen to their Neshamos, Hash-m removes His protection from them and they become Hefker to the forces of the world.

(c) The REBBE of SATMAR (in VA'YOEL MOSHE, Ma'amar Shalosh Shevuos) explains that these oaths were not intended to add any warnings or prohibitions to the laws of the Torah. Rather, one who violates these oaths is considered one who denies the Torah, since the Torah specifies exactly how the Ge'ulah is meant to come about and thus one who attempts to bring it about differently is considered a heretic. (This is similar to the punishment which the members of the tribe of Binyamin suffered when they left Mitzrayim prematurely. They were killed because the time of the redemption had not yet arrived, and thus they were considered heretics.)

The objective of the Shevu'ah is to inform the people of the severity of the punishment, even more than the Shevu'ah which the Jewish people took at Matan Torah itself. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)

(d) The MAHARAL (in CHIDUSHEI AGADOS) explains that these oaths are decrees (Gezeiros) which Hash-m enacted in order to ensure continuity of the exile which Hash-m decreed. The ability of a distinct nation to be in exile and to remain distinct is an inexplicable phenomenon which cannot be explained according to the natural laws of historical progression. Accordingly, Hash-m established three new requirements: that the nations of the world not strengthen the exile by excessive oppression of the Jewish people, that the Jewish people not weaken the exile by banding together to force their way into Eretz Yisrael, and that the Jewish people not attempt to end the exile by rebelling entirely against the nations of the world. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)

2) LIVING SINLESS IN ERETZ YISRAEL
QUESTION: Rebbi Elazar states that one who lives in Eretz Yisrael "dwells without sin" ("Nesu Avon"), as the verse says, "One who lives there will not say, 'I am sick;' the nation that dwells there will be forgiven of sin" (Yeshayah 33:24).

How is it possible that every person in Eretz Yisrael lives there without sin? How can this be true if the Jewish people were punished and exiled from Eretz Yisrael for their sins? On the contrary, the RAMBAN (end of Parshas Acharei Mos) writes that only when the Jewish people are in Eretz Yisrael are they punished with exile for sinning, because sins committed in Eretz Yisrael are punished much more severely than sins committed in Chutz la'Aretz. (PNEI YEHOSHUA)

ANSWERS:
(a) RAV YAKOV EMDEN (in Hagahos Ya'avetz) and the IYUN YAKOV explain that living in Eretz Yisrael atones only for less serious sins, and not for serious ones (like Avodah Zarah, Giluy Arayos, and Shefichus Damim, or rebellious sins, "Pesha'im"). The Iyun Yakov also suggests that living in Eretz Yisrael forgives only the sins of individuals who sin in private but not the sins committed collectively by an entire community. The Iyun Yakov adds (in the name of his father) that living in Eretz Yisrael only lessens the sin, making an intentional sin like an unintentional one. This explains why the verse says that they are "Nesu Avon" -- "forgiven of sin," which is the word that refers to intentional sin (as opposed to "Chet" which refers to unintentional sin, which they do have).

(b) The PNEI YEHOSHUA and ETZ YOSEF (in the Ein Yakov) explain that Eretz Yisrael alone does not grant pardon for sins. Rather, one's Teshuvah is accepted more readily in Eretz Yisrael. Alternatively, it is easier to do Teshuvah in Eretz Yisrael because of the Kedushah that exists there.

We may add that the Gemara in Berachos (7a) states that a person is punished for the sins of his fathers when he commits the same acts. The reason for this might be that when a person sins, his acts become such a part of the person that he is able to pass the trait on to his children, who either learn it from him or inherit it from him (see Insights to Shabbos 55:4). A person who lives in Eretz Yisrael, however, is awakened to do Teshuvah so often that any evil traits of his father are not transmitted to him. He is influenced more by the Kedushah of the land than by those evil traits of his father. Therefore, he is free of the "Avon" of his father. When the verse says "Nesu Avon" -- "forgiven of sin," it refers to the "Avon" in the verse, "Poked Avon Avos Al Banim" -- "He remembers (and punishes) the sin of the fathers upon the children" (Shemos 34:7). (M. Kornfeld. The Iyun Yakov also hints to this on 110b, DH Kol, and 111b, DH v'Ken Amru.)

In what way does living in Eretz Yisrael prompt a person to do Teshuvah, more so than living in Chutz la'Aretz? Perhaps the Gemara refers to the teaching of the Sifri cited by Tosfos in Bava Basra (21a, DH Ki mi'Tziyon). The Sifri states that when the people would come to Yerushalayim from all parts of Eretz Yisrael at the time of the festival and witness the immense Kedushah there and the Kohanim as they performed the Avodah in the Beis ha'Mikdash, "their hearts would turn towards the fear of G-d and to the study of Torah." (Even after the destruction of the Beis ha'Mikdash, Yerushalayim remained a city of holiness, where great Tzadikim dwelled to be near the place of the Shechinah.)
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Read more @ http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/insites/ks-dt-111.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2013, 08:47:49 PM »
See also :

http://www.divreinavon.com/pdf/TheThreeOathsOfJewishHistory.pdf

Quote
http://www.kby.org/hebrew/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3970

The Gemara in Ketubot (111a) derives from the triple mention of the pasuk, "I have bound you in oath, O daughters of Jerusalem" (Shir Hashirim), that Hashem bound Am Yisrael and the nations of the world with three oaths. The first oath is, "shelo yaalu bachoma," that the Jews should not forcibly, "break through the wall," and enter Eretz Yisrael. The second is that the Jews should not rebel against the nations. The third is that the nations of the world should not oppress Yisrael too much over the course of the exile. According to R. Zera, there are three additional oaths which relate to the ultimate redemption. The Gemara concludes with the threat that if Israel violates these oaths, their flesh will be made free like wild animals in the field, i.e., Hashem would bring upon them great suffering and physical destruction.

The Satmar Rebbe, Rav Yoel Teitelbaum, claims in "Vayoel Moshe" that Hashem brought about the Holocaust because the Zionist movement caused the Jews to violate the "Three Oaths." Since the Jewish people forcefully went to resettle Eretz Yisrael, Hashem brought upon them massive destruction, as the Gemara warns in its conclusion. Rav Shlomo Aviner compiled thirteen answers to this claim, amongst them the following:

1) Rav Teitelbaum's claim rests on the fact that there was a "choma," that the nations of the world prohibited the Jews from settling in the land of Israel. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return. Following the Balfour Declaration and the San Remo Conference, in which the nations of the world determined that the Jewish people have a right to settle the land of Israel, the oaths do not apply. The Midrash hints to this idea, that if Bnei Yisrael have permission to enter the land they do not violate the oaths.

2) Another answer is that once there is a sign from Hashem to return to the land, the oaths no longer apply. In addition to the permission given by the nations, the national reawakening and birth of modern Zionism can be viewed as a sign from Hashem that it is permissible to return to the land. The oaths were not an "issur" (absolute prohibition), but rather national tendencies that Hashem instilled within Klal Yisrael which would cause them to remain unmotivated to return to their land. Also, throughout most of the exile, it was very difficult physically for Jews to return to Eretz Yisrael. Once a wide scale movement with an objective to return to Eretz Yisrael began, and it was physically possible to begin Aliya to Eretz Yisrael, it became clear that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) The Gemara in Sanhedrin (98a) says that when Eretz Yisrael gives forth fruit abundantly, it is a sure sign that the redemption is coming. Eretz Yisrael, in the time of the Zionist movement, began blooming and giving forth fruits unlike any previous time since the destruction of the land. This sign of redemption showed that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) Rav Teichtal, in his work, "Em Habanim Smeicha," offers another explanation. Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully, the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much. Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles. Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.

4) According to some opinions, the only way to violate the oath would be if people came to Eretz Yisrael in very large groups. Since the Jews entered the land slowly, and over the course of many years, they did not violate the oath.

5) The author of the "Hafla'ah" maintains that the oaths only apply to those who are in the exile of Bavel, and not in other lands.

6) R' Chaim Vital explains that the oath only applied for 1000 years, not longer.

7) The Gra writes that the oath applies only to building the Beit Hamikdash, not to entering Eretz Yisrael.

8) Elsewhere in the Gemara there are other, conflicting, sources. Furthermore, the Gemara regarding the "Three Oaths" is aggada, and we do not decide halacha based on aggada.

Based on all of these explanations, there is ample basis to say that the movement to return to Eretz Yisrael was a positive, not a negative, one. In fact, others maintain just the opposite, that the Holocaust was because Jews became entrenched in galut and did not return to Eretz Yisrael. Since we are not living in a generation of prophecy, it is very difficult for us to determine exactly why Hashem brings specific punishments to the world. However, the Gemara does teach us that when we are afflicted with punishment, we should look into our actions, and try to fix our bad deeds. By looking at the Akeida, we may gain some insight regarding the Holocaust.

One of the most famous tests of Avraham was Akeidat Yitzchak. We constantly mention the Akeida in our prayers, and we still reap the benefits of this test. The question is asked, what is so special about this test? Avraham did not even do any great action of sacrifice, because in the end he did not slaughter his son. There were many other tests which Avraham actually fulfilled which are not so commonly mentioned!

Furthermore, Rav Dessler questions the very concept of "zechut Avot" (merit of the Patriarchs). If two criminals violated the same law, one coming from a dysfunctional family and one from a normal background, logic dictates that the one from a normal background should be punished more severely. When we come to Hashem and tell Him that we are descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, this should work against us! Why is there zechut? In fact, Rabbeinu Bachya says that sometimes it is best not to mention zechut avot. After the sin of the spies, Moshe pleaded to Hashem and did not mention that Hashem is "notzer chesed la'alafim," that He rewards for good deeds for generations to come. Moshe did not want Hashem to say, "If Bnei Yisrael came from such great people, why did they sin?"

Perhaps this insight can explain why we ask Hashem to remember the Akeida, as opposed to other tests of Avraham. Many times Am Yisrael does not live up to the other tests which Avraham was tested with. Through our entire history, however, Am Yisrael lived up to the test of the Akeida, and on many occasions Jews were willing to die "al kiddush Hashem" (in sanctification of G-d's name).

The Torah introduces the story of the Akeida with the phrase, "It happened after these things." (Bereishit 22:1) The parsha directly before the Akeida is the story in which Avraham makes a peace-covenant with Avimelech. The Rashbam explains that Avraham was tested with the Akeida because he did not have a sufficiently strong connection with Eretz Yisrael, and was willing to make a pact with Avimelech, thereby forfeiting some of his right to the land. The Tanna D'vei Eliyahu writes that any nation which has a serious conflict with Yisrael, does so only because of the pact which Avraham signed with Avimelech. Hashem always had a two-part covenant with Yisrael: descendants and Eretz Yisrael. Because Avraham was willing to give part of Eretz Yisrael, Hashem said, "I will take the other half of the pact -- your son."

Although we are not prophets, and we cannot determine which punishments correspond to which sins, we must try to learn lessons from events which happen in this world. Today it is clear that our bond to Eretz Yisrael still needs strengthening. If we pray and strengthen our connection to Eretz Yisrael, there will be an end to all of the Akeidot.

http://www.english.machonmeir.net/component/jmultimedia/?view=media&layout=default&id=5049

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/724623/Rabbi_Moshe_Chaim_Sosevsky/The_Three_Oaths

https://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=4001
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 03:55:42 AM »
No more subsidizing anti-Zionist stooges that don't want to work.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 04:32:13 AM »
Yes, so it seems... But I would have liked to refute this argument because it is not a 'fringe' or outlandish thing which he said. While it is clear that the religious anti-zionist has his or her reasons for believing as they do we should be able to answer these issues if we expect to be able to swing any of these Jews to our side. Rather than just outright banning them and deleting their comments, we should be able  to answer them. As the Pirkie Avot says, "Know how to answer a heretic".... While I dont think all anti-zionists are heretics, I think that we should provide sources and sages who answer the questions posed by the Three Oaths...

What religious Jew would call himself bigboris?

Offline AmYisraelChai

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2013, 01:50:21 PM »
The entire Hashkafa of the Kahanists is off. Responding to anti-Semitism with equal and opposite violence is against the Torah and, particularly while we are in Golus, a losing battle, and only makes things worse by provoking further anti-Semitism. The Torah’s directive is for us to attempt peace with our non-Jewish antagonists, and only when faced with an actual kill-or-be-killed situation is violence justified. You can find this in many places. The simplest would probably be Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s Ikvesa D’Meshichah, printed in the back of his “Kovetz Maamarim.” It is available in English as a pamphlet titled “Epoch of the Messiah”. 

The idea of using muscle to combat anti-Semitism or, as these people used to say, “for every Jew a .22”, is not new. Sixty years ago Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT”L was interviewed while in Vilna for a meeting of the Vaad haYeshivos by a writer for Dos Yiddishe Togblatt. A translation of the interview was edited by Rabbi Yehoshua Leiman of Brooklyn and printed in The Jewish Press July 14, ’89. The following is a quote from there:

“Togblatt: What should be our position regarding the Jewish anti-terror movement that uses terror against Arab terror?
Rav Wasserman: They must be regarded as Rodfim (endangerers) of Jewry. We are forbidden to use such methods.”

Our general position in Golus is to avoid and even run from confrontation with the Goyim, who by heavenly decree have the upper hand during this time period, as much as possible. We are even sworn, while in Golus not to revolt against the gentile nations (Kesuvos 111a). If we violate this oath, the punishment is that G-d will “allow our flesh [to be hunted] like deer in the fields.” Meforshim say that this is the most terrible punishment in the entire Torah.

But you don’t even need any of this to dissuade your friend from joining the JTF. Check out their website – www.jtf.org. They claim to be Kahanists but they are miles from Kahane. Their agenda is not merely Jew vs. Non-Jew; their agenda is White vs. Black. Apparently there’s not enough money to be gotten from militant Jews so they have extended their appeal to the extreme anti-black racists in America as well, claiming to be fighting their battle. Here’s a quote:
“White America senses that something terrible is happening to this country. Instead of lulling people into a false and suicidal sense of calm, the Republican Party should be sounding the alarm. . .
If JTF were on national television in the U.S. and Israel, imagine how the world would change for the better . . . In the United States, the sleeping giant of white America would finally be aroused. Our huge audience would inspire a genuine right-wing movement in this country, making it impossible for traitor frauds like George W. Bush and the Nazi Pat Buchanan to pass themselves off as "conservatives." We would save the U.S. from the abyss of Third World oblivion. And we would thwart the multinational corporate conspiracy to destroy U.S. sovereignty by creating One World Government.
For our glorious dream to come true, JTF needs millions of dollars to pay for time on national television. If you are a wealthy Jew or righteous Gentile with the needed millions of dollars, please contact us immediately so that we can make the necessary arrangements.”

Here’s more:

“Our struggle is to spearhead the momentous movement to save America and Israel. Our movement is the only hope for saving the Jewish homeland. And our movement is the only hope for inspiring righteous Gentiles to do what must be done to save America from the clutches of the hateful Third World hordes who seek the destruction of this once great nation.
Which is why every Jew and righteous Gentile should make out an especially generous check to "JTF" immediately and send it out right away.”

Save America? First they say Israel – and only Israel - is the Jewish homeland and that every Jew HAS to live there, and that America is for gentiles only. Then they want to save America from the blacks. Is this their agenda?

They’re very much into the “righteous gentiles.” They correctly point out that Judaism does not demand gentiles convert, but their example of a “righteous gentile” is “Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, who does not believe in the Jewish religion but who does have mercy upon the victims of injustice”. These people are idol-worshippers who believe in a god who impregnates married women and has children. These are NOT chasidei umos ha’olam.

This whole thing is a moneymaking attempt to attract the extreme right wing anti-black Americans.

This is not even Kahanism. I don’t see how any Jew can take this seriously.

When we fight it is only to save Jewish lives, not to get or defend land. We do not put Jewish lives at risk for any land. Unfortunately, there are many lives in danger today in Eretz Yisroel, and we cannot allow them to be wiped out c"v.

The mainstream leadership of Orthodox Jewry, which includes everyone from the Brisker Rav to the Chazon Ish to Rav S.R.Hirsh to Lubavtich were against the creation of a sovereign Jewish state in Eretz Yisroel (only the Zionists wanted it) because it violated either this or another of the Oaths that I was referring to above. The other Oath says, in short, that the Jews will not forcefully possess Eretz Yisroel during Golus.

The objection to Zionism in the Torah world is, contrary to popular belief, not due to the irreligiosity of the Zionists - although that was a small part of it as well - but rather to the violation of these Oaths.
However, that was regarding the question of whether to create a sovereign state in Eretz Yisroel. Ex post facto, after it was made, the question becomes what to do about it and how to relate to it. Now that it is here should we try to make it as religious and useful as possible or would participation in its political process make us accessories after the fact? That is a debate among Torah authorities.
But all of the above agree that risking Jewish lives is only justified to save Jewish lives, not to save land.

The following are the words of Rav Shimon Schwab ZT"L:

In the Chanukah "al hanisim" it describes our miraculous victory in the war, and continues, "And afterwards, Your children went to restore your House [the Bais HaMikdosh] etc."

The words "and afterwards" are awkward and unnecessary. It could have just said "we won the war and fixed Your house..."

Said Rav Schwab ZT"L, the reason for these extra words is to make sure we understand what we were - and were not - fighting for.

Nobody should think that the war against the Greeks had anything to do with the fact that they took over control of the Bais HaMikdash. We would rather them have the Bais HaMikdash forever and make Tameh all the oil rather than risk Jewish blood to wage war.

Rather, the war was for one reason only: "The Greeks decreed ... to make them forsake the Torah and to make them violate Your laws".

When someone makes us violate the Torah we risk our lives to stop them. We wage war. But not for land.

Therefore, it is saying that only after we won the war, after Hashem have over "many into the hands of few, strong into the hands of the weak" etc. Only after the war was over and we won, only then - "afterwards" - we went to fix the Bais HaMikdosh. But if we would have had to fight and risk lives to get the Bais HaMikdosh back, we never would have done so.

Giving the jews a "homeland" did not save any lives, even if doing so would not have been against the Torah. In fact, just one day after the State of Israel was declared, the Arab nations attacked, annihilating one out of every 100 Jews living in Israel at the time. There are wars and terrorism in Israel like everywhere in the world, and Jews are killed there, unfortunately, like everywhere else they have been.

On the contrary, the Gemora says that the fact that Jews are spread all over the world makes it safer for them, since when they are clustered in one Medinah - like they were in the days of Achashverosh - it is easy for an enemy to destroy so many of them together.

Furthermore, the Maharal writes that violating these oaths are "yehoreg v'al yaavor" -- better to die than violate them. If all the non-jewish nations would try to force us through threat of death and torture to take back Eretz Yisroel during Golus, we should rather submit to death, he says.

During "shas hashmad" (when the Goyim want to force us to violate the Torah) we must give our lives rather then give in. Outside the context of a religious war - such as when someone is sick and needs to go to the hospital on Shabbos - we violate the Torah rather to save the life.

The 3 Oaths are accepted by all factions of Jewry (except of course the Zionists and non-religious). They are applied by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT"L in his Kovetz Maamarim (Ikvesa D'Meshichah) aganst the Jewish militants and Zionists, quoted numerous times by Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh ZT"L in Chorev in the same context, by the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab) in a famous letter (printed in Daas HaRabbonim - Ohr Layeshorim p.57) against Zionism.

There are countless more sources, but I wanted to give as broad a range as possible. So here we have the Litvaks, the Yekkes, Satmar and Lubavitch.

Unfortunately, because of political reasons, the Torah literature surrounding these Oaths are avoided in religious Zionist institutions.

Ther is no oath that prohibits living in Eretz Yisroel. The only prohibition is a national take over of the land. Nobody ever said you can't live in Eretz Yisroel. Even the most staunch anti-Zionists, the Neturei Karta, lived in Eretz Yisroel.

The Maharal says "Even if the [Goyim] want to kill the Jews with hard torturous [death], they should not leave [the Golus] and they should not give in to this"

In other words, even if the Goyim demand that we must take over Eretz Yisroel or lese they will kill us, we should rather allow ourselves to be killed.

The idea that our Oaths are contingent on those of the Goyim is taught in Zionist institutions for political reasons but is not true. The Midrash Rabbah (Shir HaShirim) says that the Bnie Efraim were all annihilated in the desert for violating the Oaths and leaving Egypt early, even though Egypt certainly persecuted the Jews overmuch.

The idea doesn't work because the prohibition of the Jews to rebel against the nations or to take Eretz Yisroel were NOT for the benefit of the Goyim but for the benefit of the Jews -- it allows the Golus to finish its course as oppsoed to us "jumping the gun" and terminating it before it has fulfilled its purpose. So if the Goyim violated their oath - which of course they did - us violating ours would not be hurting the Goyim but hurting us.

The Golus happened in the year 70. That means any Rishonim or Acronim after approximately the Rif that brings the Oaths l'halachah shows that they do not believe they have expired. The Rambam applies them in his letters, and the Megilas Esther in Sefer HaMitzvos says that the reason the Rambam left out the Mitzvah to live in Erezt Yisroel nowadays is because although it is permitted to live there, it is no longer a Mitzvah, since obligating everyone to live there would cause a violation of the Oaths. They are also applied by countless other Torah authorities throughout the generations, including the Rivash and Rashbash.

This is not even a fair issue. The greatest of the greatest of our Gedolim have already declared the state to be against the Oaths. I am talking about Gedolim of 100 years ago. A nice rabbi even if he is a talmid chacham is not likely to "disprove" the collective Torah knowledge of the Torah giants. It is only the Mizrachi that wanted a state, and they have not yet even begun to find ways to answer the Halachic problems of the Oaths and other issues as well.

The Oaths are brought donw l'halachah, including but not limited to: Responsa Rivash #110, Responsa Rashbash #2, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam (#4 - Regarding whay the Rambam does not count the Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel in his list of Mitzvos), Ramban (Maamar HaGeulah #1 regarding why all Jews outside of Bavel - the majority of Jews at the time - did not go to Eretz Yisroel at Coresh's call), Rambam (Igeres Taimon - warning peple not to violate the Oaths or else face grave danger), Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) writes that even if the Goyim try to force us to take Eretz Yisroel for ourselves during Golus, we must allow ourselves to be killed rather than take violate the Oaths.

And the Bnei Efraim, Chazal say, were killed for violating the Oaths. If this heter didnt help them theres no reason to think it will help us.

And as for it nto being in Mishna Torah, the Rambam himself wasnt impressed with this argument, since in Igeres Taomin he warns ppl not to violate the Oaths or else suffer grave danger. So I guess the Rambam didnt agree with your explanation of the Rambam.

Not only Germany violated their Oath but Egypt did too, yet when the Bnei Efraim ran away from there they were all killed in the desert for violating the Oaths. The Oaths are not reciprocal. Our Oath not to rebel against the nations was not made to protect the nations it was made to protect us, so if the nations one of the oaths, thats all the more reason to make sure we maintain the rest.

Seeing the "hand of G-d" means nothing when the Halachah disagrees. The Bnei Efraim surely saw the hand of G-d in their escaping from Egypt, which of course was an open miracle - as we know, "Mitzrayim" begins with an open "mem" and ends with a clsoed one to show that nobody ever got out. Ever.

Until our Shevet Efriam. A clear miracle. The hand of G-d was surely seen! Yet it was forbidden and they were killed.

Why should we think we're better than Bnei Efriam?

Jewish pride has to come through the Jewish religion, not tribal militancy, which is the type of pride the JDL instills. Jewish pride means we are holy, children of Hashem, and it comes hand in hand with Jewish humility when we contemplate the great responsibility that comes with that priviledge. Jewish pride leads to committment to Torah and Mitzvos.

Spending so much of your time energy and life preparing to know how to shoot someone in case of another holocaust is not our job in this world. Our job is to become Torah scholars and do Mitzvos. And if there will be another holocaust c"v, your knowing how to shoot will not save lives nearly as much as the committment of Klall Yisroel to Hashem's Torah.

The JDL is more than a Karate class. It is a philosophy of what Jews need in this world to survive against the Goyim. Their philosophy is wrong and against the Torah as explained above.

Nationalism is not only not a religious duty, it is simply Avodah Zorah. "Nationalism" in this context is a euphemism for Zionism, or the idea that Jews need to be a "nation like all nations" - with their own land, language, etc.

This is idolatry. The Jews are different than all other nations. Other nations are nations because of common land, food, culture, language etc. Jews are a nation because of the Torah. That is ALL that makes us Jews. The idea that it enhances our status as a nation if we have a land or an army like everyone else is projecting non-Jewish national criteria and using it to replace the Torah Nation's criteria.

For more on this topic, see Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He discusses this at length.

It also does not matter if the nationalism is "religious" or not. As Reb Elchonon puts it: "Nationalism is avodah zorah. Religious nationalism is avodah zarah mixed with religion."

And no, the Rashi about R. Yitzchok is NOT, chas v'sholom, nationalistic. All it says is that Hashem owns the world and that when He decides to give Eretz Yisroel to us, we will have a right to take it.

It does NOT mean that we can just go into Eretz Yisroel and take the land from whoever is in there. That is forbidden and punishable by death, as the Gemora says in Kesuvos 111a.

Avrohom Avinu, who Hashem promised the land, had to buy the M'aras Hamachpelah from Efron. He did not come with claims of ownership. It says nowhere that Jews own Eretz Yisroel in Golus. On the contrary, we are allowed to live there, maybe even commanded to, according to some Rishonim, but not allowed to own it as a State. As we say in Davening "Because of our sins we were exiled from our land."

Eretz Yisroel was given to us on the condition we fulfill the Torah. It was the same Hashem Who promised it to us that took it away because we did not fulfill that condiiton.

And He said NOT to dare take it until we do fulfill it. That will happen when Moshiach comes.

PS - Ikvesa D'Meshichah will provide you with all you need to know about not being militant, as well.

You're right - Bar Kochba's "excuse" was that he believed Moshiach had come. When that happens, Golus is over and we take Eretz Yisroel.

But Chazal do indeed say that the generation of Bar Kochba were punished with death and destruction because they violated the Oaths. That, even though they believed it wasn't a problem. That is how severe the Oaths are.

Get a hold of Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Kovetz Maamarim, and read the chapter called Ikvesa D'Meshichah. He explains why the tactics that Kahane espoused - which by the way, are nothing new: the idea of exporting the Arabs, and fighting terror with terror etc. were espoused way way before Kahane, in the early days of Zionism; his ideas are so totally unoriginal - are not only against the Torah, but cause Klal Yisroel to be in danger, and Jews to c"v die. See especially pages 310-313 in the new print. Basically it goes like this:

When someone attacks an individual Jew, he is instructed to fight back. "When someone rises to kill you, rise up and kill them first." But when we are dealing with the survival of Klall Yisroel as a whole, the rules change. This is because, using plain, nationalistic methods of survival work for other nations but do not work to maintain the Am Yisroel. This is because, while Esav was blessed with "He shall live by his sword", Klall Yisroel's Brochoh was that they should live by the Torah.

This means that the sword is the method the nations use for survival, but it does not work for us.

What does work for us, is to avoid confrontation with the nations of the world as much as possible. We are commanded by Chazal in numerous places (Brachos 7b, Yalkut Shimoni Shemos 168, Devorim Rabbah 1) not to dare engage the Goyim in a national confrontation. If we do, we will lose. Because we are playing on their turf - "the sword". What we are told to do in order to survive, is to avoid confrontation as much as possible, run away, whether the storm, and turn to Torah and Mitzvos.

The Gemora (Taanis 10b) says we should not "attract the attention" of the nations. Says Rav Elchonon: "This is a warning not to give the nations any opportunity to focus their attention on us and to always be talking about us. To the extent that the nations refrain from thinking about us and talking about us, to that extent we will be OK.."

In short, Kahane's methods of directly confronting the nations with force will fail because the nations are stronger than us, physically. The result will be - and has been - only to further instigate greater anti-semitism and more deaths of Jews. The right thing to do according to Chazal is to "lay low" - just the opposite of what Kahane wanted.

Throughout history this is how Klall Yisroel has behaved. And although we have been persecuted and murdered for thousands of years, please note that Klall Yisroel is the only single one of the ancient nations that has survived until today. The "shelf life" for even the most glorious, powerful nations is much shorter than the shelf life of the Am Yisroel. The methods that Chazal revealed to us - the methods that we have used - have been successful beyond any reasonable expectations, or any natural life span. We have been miraculously successful in our survival using the methods of Chazal. And that, despite our being constantly persecuted, and without a homeland for thousands of years.

That is the only thing that allowed us to survive throughout golus - "laying low". And not confronting the nations. Not living "by the sword".

When the Goyim threatened us with death, we always turned to the Torah. When they threatened our religion, not our lives, like by making a SHmad, then, and only then, did we put our lives on the line and go to war against impossible odds.

We all know thats the diff between Purim and Chanukah. On Chanukah, they didnt want to kill any Jews. They just attacked "Hashem" - wanted to stop Torah and Mitzvos. So we fought. But on Purim they wanted to kill us - so we didnt make a war; we prayed.

In an interview that Rav Elchonon ZTL had with a Yiddish newspaper before the war, he said that those who resort to the methods of "answering violence with violence" are considered Rodfim of Klall Yisroel - peopel who put Jewish lives in danger.  The Halachic status of such people is that you are allowed to kill them, and by killing them, it is considered as if you saved the Jewish lives that would have been lost because of their irresponsible actions.

Regarding a homeland, the torah prohibits us to have a homeland in Eretz Yisroel before MOshiach comes. The punishment, it says, is that if we do take Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, Hashem will allow the Jews to be "hunted down and butchered like animals in the field." Rachmana Litzlan.

One of the reasons for not making a Jewish State in Israel, aside form the Torahs prohibition, was the obvious danger to Jewish lives due to the Arab resistance. The creation of the State of Israel and the ensuing middle east controversy caused so much anti-semitism, it is worse than it was before. Rav Shach ZTL writes this in his letters, and even before the founding of the State, the Gedolim were screaming that this would happen. Wrote Rav Mishoel Ber Weismandel ZTL, the great hero of the holocaust:

"These Zionists...with their offensive militancy, fanned the fires of anti-semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew hatred between Nazi Germany and the surrounding countries.

"Thee are the 'statemen' who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it borught calamity on the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad dog Hitler, the Zionists forsook the only plausable method of political amenability; and ... incensec the leader of germany into a frenzy. And then, after the bitterst episode in Jewish history, thse ZIonists lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in humgher and deprivation, nd refuse to relocate to any place except Palestine; only for the purpose of building their state.
"The ZIonists have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like ENgland, and against hundreds of millions of Arabs.

"And these same Zionist "statesmen" heedlessly push the world to the brink of another total war - revolving entirely around the Holy Land.

"...the rising anti-Seimitism in the Western World is the product of their "statesmanship"".

Rav Shach ZT"L also writes how the controversy caused by the State of Israel is likely to cause the next world war, rachmana latzlan.

The solution? I dont htink there is any. Not any more. The Zionists threw a hand grenade into a powder keg of anti-semitism with their actions. Now, the world hated us more and more. Even the Satmar Rebbe ZTL, one of the staunchest opponents of Zionism in our time, writes in several places, that even though it is clear that the State of Isael must be abolished, due to the problems it causes as well as its Halachic unacceptability, but we cannot give back it to the Arabs, since doing so would be a big Sakanah to the Jews living there. Rather, he says, the only solution is to pray for Moshiach to come and let him abolish the State.

I have not heard of any Tzadik come up with any solution to this problem. The Gedolim tried to prevent it - as in the writing of Rav Mishoel Ber and Rav Elchonon ZTL - but the Zionists ignored their pleas and put us in this position anyway. Once the fire is burning, I havent heard anyone suggest a way to put it out.

Except to pray to Hashem and to return to the Torah.

Of course hishtadlus is needed, but the question is, what path to take for hishtadlus? Both advance and retreat are Hishtadlus, and both are appropriate in their proper times.

Chazal tell us that for Klall Yisroel, the histadlus that will be successful for us, is never, ever, to assert ourselves to or to confront the nations of the world. That will be our salvation.

We must never even demand things of the nations - we can only request, Rav Elchonon says. We cannot protest against them, we canot demand they give us anything, we cannot write newspaper articles about how wrong they are (between ourselves, yes, we can and should; but to the world, in public, we cannot).

That is not relying on a miracle, that is practical advice from Chazal based on the factual dynamics in the relationship between the Jewish Nation and the Goyish Nations. The psychology of the Goyim, the Jews, and all other factors were considered by G-d and this is the advice - and orders that he gave us.

If we lay low, submit to the nations, we will live. Else, c"v...

This is how Klall Yisroel survived all these years. This is the onyl way we can survive in the future.

The victories of the IDF were battles; the war with the ARabs is not over. Far from it. The IDF has not conquered their enemies. On the contrary, more people have been killed by the enemy - Arabs - in Israel since the inception of the State than everywhere else in the world put togethr where we have no army. And that, despite the fact that more Jews always lived - and still do - outside EY.

And even the "victories" are questionable. Israel "won" the war of '48. But 6,000 Jews were killed in it. that means, if oyu add up all the ppl killed in the WTC tragedy, double that, and make believe they were all Jews - that still doesnt equal the amount of Jews killed in a "victory".

Depends what you consider victory. If you want land, and are willign to give Jewish blood, which is of course against everythgin the Torah teaches - a Jewish life is worth more than all the land, including eretz Yisroel and the Bais HaMikdahs itself - then its a victory, I suppose.

On purim, they only fought AFTER the enemy was neutralized. When the Gezeirah was over, and the Jews had the support of the government, they "mopped up" their enemies. they did NOT fight Achashveirosh to nullify the decree.

Even today, it is clear that the incendiary acts of the Kahanists have caused Jewish blood to spill. Including that of Kahane himslef, and his son and daughter in law. His way did not work for him. It doesnt work for anyone.

The insane act of the Kachnik Tatiana Soskin caused an Arab uprising that killed and maimed may Jews. Sharon's incendiary remarks on the Har Habayis triggered suicide bombers. CHaim Weissman's insane declaration on the radio that the Jews are declaring war on Hitler damaged all hopes of nagotiating with that animal and caused the deaths of unkown numbers of jews. The very declaration that the Jews are taking over Israel caused the Arab hatred for the Jews, including the Chevron massacre, and the Mufti's unlikely alliance with Hitler. I could go on and on.

No, its not "OK" if 6,000,000 Jews are killed.  But we dont have an option of eliminating anti-semitism, we only have the option of minimizing casualties. And that means laying low, Chazal say.

Rav Yochana ben Zakai was willign to give up Jerusalem to the Romans rather than fight, in order to save Jewish lives. The militants, with the same argumnets as you, decided to fight. If not for them, Jerusalem would not have been destroyed.

The same applies for the first destruction.

Throughout history, those who wanted to fight were the ones who cause untold death and suffering for Jews. Like the Baryonim. And like Kahane.

Our only hope is to listen to Chazal and the Gedolei Yisroel who tell us that militancy is nto the way to survival. Peaceful political requests to the nations, and finding favor in their eyes works for us.

Fighting works for the Goyim.

If we would fight, we would end up like the Goyish nations that came into existence in the days we did.

Dead. Obliterated. Gone.

Only because we did not fight in Golus and submitted to the reality of being a sheep among 70 wolves did we outlive all of them.

Kahane and those like him would change that. he would make us into a Goyishe "becharvo sichye" nation who will c"v perish like all such nations.

If it aint broken dont fix it.

Judiasm aint broken. Weve done better than anyone else, survival-wise. Dont change that. The only other option is to have more Jews killed, not less. That was Kahane's choice.

Thank G-d it is not Klall Yisroel's.

Its very very poshut. It says nowhere that the reason Rabi Yochanan ben Zakai was worried on hsi deathbed was because he wanted to give away yerushalayim. In fact, that decision of his is used dozens of times in the Rishonim and Achronim as a halachah l'maaseh example of how we are to act when dealing with the danger form the Goyim.

Rabi Akiva did not say Rav Yochana ben Zakai was wrong for wanting to give away Yerushalayim, as oppsoedto fighting for it. Rabi AKiva said that RYB"Z had an opporutnity to avoid a war altogetehr by askign the Romans to go home, as per his one wish granted to him by Aspasyonus. But not a single opinion - of Rabi AKiva or anyone else - says that chas v'sholom Rav Yochana ben Zakai should have fought for Jerusalem.

There is no quesiton that all the land in the world - including Yerushalayim and the Bais Hamikdosh itself - it not worth a single Jewish life. The idea that Jewish lives are expendable in order to own land is baseless and against the Torah.

Moshiach exists in many stages. The Rambam writes for instance that Moshiach will have to make all Jews do Teshuva, which will be a sign that he is in reality Moshiach. Once we know that, we follow him to the Geulah.

SO Moshiach does things in preparation for the Geulah as well as the Geulah itself. I imagine thats why, in DIvrei Yoel, the Satmar Rebbe writes that we have to wait for "Eliyahu and Moshiach" to terminate Israel, since Eliyahu's functioning is preparation for the Geulah

So he is saying that, before the Geulah happens, Israel will have to be abloished, and the only way he can think of that happening now without endangering Jews is for Eliyahu and Moshiach to do it before the redemption.

Thsoe who kileld the Kahanes werent targeting any Jews - they were targeting the Kahanes specifically.

"G-d's annointed"? I don't think so.

The Netziv never said anythign about chas vsholom creating a Jewish State in EY. He was in favor of colonizing Eretz Yisroel, which was then under Turkish authority. The Netziv was niftar before Herzl even dreamed up the idea of a Jewish State.

Zionists like to present anyone who loves Eretz Yisroel as Zionist, thereby hijacking our Torah sages to further their own agenda, which was making a Jewish State. Its a common Zionist propaganda tactic to confuse the issue of the holiness of Eretz Yisroel and the zechus (and according to some even a Mitzvah) of living there, with Statehood. The first is a Torah concept, the second is Zionism.

Haba lhargechah surely does nto apply here.  Kahane lied about this to his people very often. He would site the CHevron massacre, for instance, as "proof" that the Arabs want to kill Jews regardless of the State of Israel, since there was no State of Israel in 1939, when the massacre took place.

But of course thats a lie - Zionism wpredated the State of Israel. The Balfour declaration happened in 1917, the ZIonist COngress in 1897. The Zionists were already fighting violently with the ARabs and the English, way before the State was created. And it was the Zionists that instigated the Chevron massacre (nnot that that alleviates any responsibility on the part of the murderers) with their anatagonizing the Arabs with threats to take over the Kosel grounds, as well as the entire land.


Kahane knew that.

Kahane's way is against the Torah, as explained above. And that derech didnt work for Kahane or his son. We dont want what happend to them to happen to us.

The "war" in Persia was not against the oaths because we were not fighting any governments, but acting with full support of the Persian government, according to their decree. We were not Jews rebelling against naitons, but favored citizens rebelling mopping up conspirators.

Jews are allowed to be in foreign governments. There is no Oath agaisnt that.

The Oaths are based on a Posuk in Shir Hashirim, as the Gemora states.

The problem with Zionism is NOT that the Zionists were our enemies - although thats true too. The problem with Zionism is NOT that Erezt Yisroel itself is worthless withotu the Bais Hamikdash - nobody ever said that. The problem with Zionism is that nowadays while we are still in Golus, when no Navi told us the time to enter EY has arrived - under the current circumstances for us to take EY, is against the Torah. What does that have to do with Dayenu? Then, it was the right time - Hashem Himself said so. He led us in. Today is not the right time - and so it is a terrible aveirah. All the other problems, such as the anti-semtism and deaths caused by having the State, are secondary to, and may be a result of, that.

If anything, Jabotinsky should be suffixed with "shem rishayim yirkav." ("may the name of the wicked rot")

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2013, 01:59:20 PM »
If anything, Jabotinsky should be suffixed with "shem rishayim yirkav." ("may the name of the wicked rot")

It is your name that should rot. And it will.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2013, 01:59:41 PM »
Heee's baaack...  :::D
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 05:07:02 PM »
Heee's baaack...  :::D

He posted on Shabbat as well.

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 05:12:17 PM »
He posted on Shabbat as well.

Whoah! What a zealot for Hashem...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »
it's not shabbat yet.

It is in Israel.

Offline serbian army

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Re: Israel's economy under a pro Kahane government, post your ideas!
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 07:50:24 PM »
A country with one of the most stable housing market in the world is worth my admiration. Taxes are high but so is security risk. Grow tourism more, invest in water rich regions, continue with great food production and natural gas exploration. Main concern are high taxes, but in all other measures Israel is doing fantastic.  :dance: Please help us Serbs rebuild our economy which was destroyed by bombardment from 35 countries in 1999....
Serbia will never surrender Kosovo to the breakaway province's ethnic Albanian majority or trade its territory for European Union or NATO membership,