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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Whats Yonah really about?
« on: September 15, 2013, 12:08:04 AM »
Very good presentation, never seen it this way before.

http://www.alephbeta.org/course/lecture/whats-jonah-really-about
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 12:23:13 AM »
Same Rabbi (links to essays and video presentations on different topics).

http://www.aish.com/authors/48867802.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 02:35:36 AM »
Shalom Tag-Mehir,

I am too tired to watch the video at this moment but I will share with you what the lesson of the story of Jonah is according to my understanding.

I have studied this book of the Prophets for many years and every year I learn more and more about it. It is not as simple as the narrative goes, even though the entire book is only 4 short chapters. As the question posed by Rabbi Froman reveals 'What's Jonah Really About' is not as simple as a tale about a prophet being swallowed by a whale (which is what most people tell me Jonah is about).

The question 'why did Jonah run from Hashem' is not really answered in the text, but only through various midrashim. I am not sure of the sources but I have heard two explanations.

1) Because he was a prophet he knew that Nineveh would rise against Israel in the future.
2) That the Ninevans easy repentance would shame the repentence of the Children of Israel who would not listen to the prophets.

This explains why Jonah was so very upset at the end of the story when his mission was, by all means, a success in that the entire city all repented of their sins and actually were forgiven by Hashem. He must have had is doubts because he left the city to observe what would happen from afar. He was so despondent from the fact that the Ninevans had done teshuva that he again wanted to die.

The idea of repentance is the reason we read this on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. The entire day we spend reading portions of the Torah where the mercy and patience of Hashem are discussed.

The midrashim teach an odd thing, that the King of Ninevah who donned sackcloth and ashes, was actually Paroah HaRasha himself. Do you understand what this is saying? That even the worst sinner (who drank Jewish blood) was allowed to repent. I even find it hard to comprehend myself because while I do believe in Teshuvahs ability to erase sins I believe some sins cannot be erased (and I myself believe genocide is one sin which cannot be erased). This is why one Passover I said to my Rabbi that I hated Paraoh to this day.

Quote
http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/interpreting-midrash

7. Upon the defeat of Pharaoh and his troops, the Torah states (Exod. 14:28): lo nishar bahem ad ehad (generally translated: “there did not remain from them even one”). Taking ad ehad to mean “until one remained,” Rabbi Nehemiah in the Mekhilta states that Pharaoh was spared. Pirkei Rabbi Eliezer (42) added in the name of Rabbi Nehuniah the son of Hakaneh:

When Pharaoh said, “Who is like You among the elim, Hashem, Who is like You, majestic in holiness” (Exod. 15:11), the Holy One, blessed be He saved him from the dead so that he would relate His power to others, in accordance with what is stated: “for this purpose have I allowed you to stand…and in order that My name be recounted throughout all the land” (9:16). Pharaoh became king in Nineveh…When the Holy One, blessed be He sent Jonah to prophesy that Nineveh will be destroyed, Pharaoh heard, rose from his throne, rent his garments, donned sackcloth and ashes [and brought the city to repentance].

Surely this is a most potent cluster of messages about repentance. It also is an extravagantly imaginative tale spreading over many centuries based on a most fanciful interpretation of a verse.


Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/463982/jewish/The-Prophet-Jonah.htm

One of the greatest prophets during the time of Jeroboam II was Jonah the son of Amitai, who, as a prophet disciple, had anointed Jehu and who, therefore, enjoyed the king's benevolence. Once G-d commanded Jonah to go to Nineveh, one of the largest cities of that time and foretell its destruction, because the evil of its inhabitants had reached the limit. The mission, however, was not to Jonah's liking. Nineveh was a bitter enemy of Israel, and Jonah would have liked to see its destruction. If he should succeed in his mission and Nineveh would be spared, it would remain a constant threat to Israel.

Jonah was displeased at this change of events. He had hoped that the doom of Nineveh, had the inhabitants of that city not repented, would forever rid his people Israel of one of its bitter enemies. He built himself a hut outside the city in which to live the life of a recluse. Jonah was anxious to know what the fate of the city would be. It was a very hot day, and G-d made a plant grow to give Jonah shade and protect him from the sting of the hot sun. Jonah was overjoyed with the plant. Then G-d sent a worm that stung the plant and made it wither. When the protection of the plant had been withdrawn, the sun beat mercilessly upon Jonah's head until he became faint, and wished to die. Then the weary prophet heard G-d's words: "You are sorry for the plant for which you have neither labored, nor made it grow; which came up in one night and perished in the next; shall I not then, spare Nineveh, the great city, wherein more than twelve times ten thousand people live who do not know how to discern between their right and their left hand (i.e. children), and many animals in addition?"1


So I find the answers only lead to more questions. Why did Hashem want Jonah to rescue those who were the enemies of Israel? I really do not know the answer to that question at this time. My only supposition is that for some reason Israel may have deserved someone to oppress her, although this answer seems defeatist. But looking at where the Jewish people are today I sometimes believe that without an oppressor the Jewish people assimilate themselves out of existence.

This is my opinion after learning this for many years. I would appreciate hearing alternate explanations.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2013, 02:35:32 PM »
What if... Jonah went and preached at Nineveh and they repented and started following HaShem and stopped oppressing Israel.  And G-d rewarded them for their actions, maybe Israel would see that they had lost favor in the eyes of the Lord, and they would repent as well.

"They don't know their right hand from their left" This kinda reminds me of what Rabbi Cassouto was saying in the last video. They don't know what they are doing, they have a hole inside that needs to be filled with the light of HaShem. And that is the job of the Jew to spread light to the Nations.

Also, by Jonah running off, he actually brought awareness of Hashem to more people. It says the men on the ship prayed to their own G-d's(to me this could mean they were from different Nations). But, that day they witnessed the power of the G-d of the Hebrews, and repented. On their journeys, and when they got home, more then likely they would spread the story of this all powerful G-d.

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:42:16 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2013, 02:48:27 PM »
Another interesting question I have heard on the Book of Jonah is the following:

Why, when Jonah comes to Nineveh to get them to repent, do the animals also fast and don sack-cloth?

At no other time have I ever heard that animals must repent by fasting and wearing sack-cloth...

Quote
Chapter 3

6 And the word reached the king of Nineveh, whereupon he rose from his throne, took off his royal robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat on the ashes.
7. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh: By the counsel of the king and his nobles, saying: Neither man nor beast, neither cattle nor sheep shall taste anything; they shall not graze, neither shall they drink water.
8. And they shall cover themselves with sackcloth, both man and beast, and they shall call mightily to God, and everyone shall repent of his evil way and of the dishonest gain which is in their hands.

It is also interesting to note at the end Hashem shows concern for the animals also...

"You are sorry for the plant for which you have neither labored, nor made it grow; which came up in one night and perished in the next; shall I not then, spare Nineveh, the great city, wherein more than twelve times ten thousand people live who do not know how to discern between their right and their left hand (i.e. children), and many animals in addition?"

I hope to find an answer to this question...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2013, 07:44:10 PM »
What if it is a hint to the final redemption... If the whole world repented, fasted, and humbled themselves before the Lord, it would bring the final redemption, or during the redemption the whole world even the animals( lion will lay with the lamb). Will repent, fast, and humble themselves before the Lord.


"You are sorry for the plant for which you have neither labored, nor made it grow; which came up in one night and perished in the next; shall I not then, spare Nineveh, the great city, wherein more than twelve times ten thousand people live who do not know how to discern between their right and their left hand (i.e. children), and many animals in addition?"

^ To me it seems HaShem is telling Jonah that he is being selfish. G-d is saying... " you care about a plant that I created, because it benefits you, but you don't care about all of my other creations, because it does not... They don't know what they are doing, now go out and get all of my creations to repent and come closer to me."




Remember, I'm just making this stuff up.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2013, 10:22:44 PM »
Also, I don't think Jews believe this, but I do... I believe animals go to the spirit world, and souls are reincarnated in humans and animals. So that could explain how an animal could repent...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2013, 11:19:24 PM »
Also, I don't think Jews believe this, but I do... I believe animals go to the spirit world, and souls are reincarnated in humans and animals. So that could explain how an animal could repent...

Repentance is illogical without free-will.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2013, 11:43:25 PM »
Repentance is illogical without free-will.
Ok, what about this... Man influences his animals. If a man is bad, his animals have a bad disposition. If he is a good man, his animals have a good disposition.

If the owner repents, maybe his animals will too.

How many dogs are evil, because their owner made them that way...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2013, 11:53:53 PM »
Ok, what about this... Man influences his animals. If a man is bad, his animals have a bad disposition. If he is a good man, his animals have a good disposition.

If the owner repents, maybe his animals will too.

How many dogs are evil, because their owner made them that way...

Any sin one causes a child, or an animal to do is on his head. An apology entails a higher path that the person chose not to pursue instead of another one. When anything is incapable of making a choice, it is free of blame. A gun does not need to apologize, even if it was sentient. If someone imprisons you in a suit that you are weaker than, and the suit kills someone but you have no option to commit suicide, or your corpse is in the suit, you are not a murderer.

What is evil for a dog? Wild dogs, or if a powerful breeds of dog was loosed in the wild, they would be more brutal and vicious than trained ones. It is their nature, and it exists for a reason beyond their control, and they have no option to do otherwise. G-d created them to behave this way, and they can't become Jews, nor can they choose any other destiny from what their instincts and environment make them.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 01:28:25 AM »
Ephraim you are onto something...

The midrashim also say that the animals during the time of Noach had become corrupt, because of the corruption of mankind. The animals began to have homosexual relationships because the generation was one of much immorality. So from this we can learn that animals are influenced by the humans alive at the time.

I have not heard this in reference to the Book of Jonah though. Let me see if I can find mention of this...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 01:33:24 AM »
Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/legacy/5769/noach.html


The Torah gives a lurid account of the level of depravity to which society had fallen, widespread idolatry, promiscuity and adultery so pervasive that even the animal kingdom was perverted, the total collapse of moral standards, the degeneracy and the shamelessness. And yet, the Torah tells us, the final decree of annihilation was triggered by pecuniary crimes - “vatimalei haaretz chamas,” and the land was filled with robbery. Why was the crime of robbery considered worse than all the other horrendous crimes of society? After all, robbery is not a capital crime, while some of the others are indeed punishable by death. Why then was robbery the fuse that ignited the explosion called the Great Flood?

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5759/noach.html

Furthermore, what does the Medrash do with the literal interpretation of the verses? The verses themselves tell us what happened to the generation of the flood and why they were punished. "The earth was decadent before G-d, the land was filled with violence." [Bereshis 6:11]. The Torah tells us that there was so much perversion that it even affected the animals.

http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/noach/017.htm

When G-d brought the flood, he did so to destroy all life, not just human life. "And G-d saw the earth and behold it was corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth" (Genesis 6:12). We learn that all land animals and fowl were destroyed because they too had become corrupt. As Rashi explains, "Even cattle, beasts, and fowl mated with those who were not of their own species." The sins of the humans spread to the animals, until all creatures were acting in a perverted way. Though the animals did not intend to be influenced by humans, their exposure to humans influenced them in a negative fashion. Thus, mere contact with a wicked person or a corrupt situation can negatively affect one’s personality and behavior.


But LKZ also points out a basic belief in Judaism that only humans have 'free will' and we can only be punished or rewarded for our free will. Animals do not have free will as we do, thus I still see a problem with asking them to do teshuva.



The Torah says that all life was destroyed because of the sin of robbery.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 04:23:39 AM »
Mind-blowing presentation that spoke to me on a very personal level. Thank you Tag.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline kyel

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 06:11:07 PM »
Shalom Tag-Mehir,

I am too tired to watch the video at this moment but I will share with you what the lesson of the story of Jonah is according to my understanding.

I have studied this book of the Prophets for many years and every year I learn more and more about it. It is not as simple as the narrative goes, even though the entire book is only 4 short chapters. As the question posed by Rabbi Froman reveals 'What's Jonah Really About' is not as simple as a tale about a prophet being swallowed by a whale (which is what most people tell me Jonah is about).

The question 'why did Jonah run from Hashem' is not really answered in the text, but only through various midrashim. I am not sure of the sources but I have heard two explanations.

1) Because he was a prophet he knew that Nineveh would rise against Israel in the future.
2) That the Ninevans easy repentance would shame the repentence of the Children of Israel who would not listen to the prophets.

This explains why Jonah was so very upset at the end of the story when his mission was, by all means, a success in that the entire city all repented of their sins and actually were forgiven by Hashem. He must have had is doubts because he left the city to observe what would happen from afar. He was so despondent from the fact that the Ninevans had done teshuva that he again wanted to die.

The idea of repentance is the reason we read this on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement. The entire day we spend reading portions of the Torah where the mercy and patience of Hashem are discussed.

The midrashim teach an odd thing, that the King of Ninevah who donned sackcloth and ashes, was actually Paroah HaRasha himself. Do you understand what this is saying? That even the worst sinner (who drank Jewish blood) was allowed to repent. I even find it hard to comprehend myself because while I do believe in Teshuvahs ability to erase sins I believe some sins cannot be erased (and I myself believe genocide is one sin which cannot be erased). This is why one Passover I said to my Rabbi that I hated Paraoh to this day.



So I find the answers only lead to more questions. Why did Hashem want Jonah to rescue those who were the enemies of Israel? I really do not know the answer to that question at this time. My only supposition is that for some reason Israel may have deserved someone to oppress her, although this answer seems defeatist. But looking at where the Jewish people are today I sometimes believe that without an oppressor the Jewish people assimilate themselves out of existence.

This is my opinion after learning this for many years. I would appreciate hearing alternate explanations.


How could the King of Nineveh been Pharoah HaRasha wasn't this several centuries apart?

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »

How could the King of Nineveh been Pharoah HaRasha wasn't this several centuries apart?

Yes indeed, this is because the lesson is learned from the midrash. Midrash is not historically correct and thus it cannot be used to learn facts. But Midrash can be used to learn principles. Thus the midrash is trying to teach us something about the nature of Teshuva.

The issue which I brought up concerning whether this midrash is true or not (whether an absolute Rasha like Paroah could ever have been forgiven) bothered me so much that I called my Rabbi about it. Unfortunately this was something he was unable to answer me.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/417,200/What-is-the-Midrash.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »
Apparently my opinion is shared by the Abarbenel on the reason Nineveh was permitted to repent even though it would eventually rise against Israel...

Quote
http://www.torah.org/advanced/abarbanel/5765/vaera.html
2. Although it is just and right that the nefesh that sins shall die and that every man should be judged in full according to his deeds, the remedy of teshuvah is chesed that Hashem grants to Israel. Since His hashgachah extends over them eternally and constantly, whenever they repent and cry out to Him, He hears their repentance immediately. Moshe referred to this when he said, ‘”What a great nation who has G-d so close to them whenever they call out to Him. When you shall be in dire straits, you shall return unto the Lord your G-d”. However, for other nations teshuvah is not so readily and easily achieved, since their prayer, sorrow and penance is not definitely done wholeheartedly and with all their power. They basically remain idolaters, so that they are ‘tovel u sheretz beyado’. [It is perhaps similar to the idea of the Shem Mi Shmuel of Sochochow, that the gentile nations are quick to repent but that such teshuvah is shallow, so that reversal comes just as quickly]. There is really no difficulty to this idea from the people of Nineveh. Hashem did not want to send Yonah to Nineveh in order to warn and convince them of their impending destruction, rather He wanted them to be a suitable rod whereby to smite and punish Israel; so gave them a chance to repent and thereby be fitting for this role. That explains Yonah’s fleeing, rather than accepting his task to prepare this enemy from succeeding in punishing Israel. So, for any nation to do true teshuvah that is accepted in Heaven, they have to at the same time desire to save and help Israel, thereby showing that they truly wish to cleave to Hashem. Since neither Pharaoh nor his nation wished in any way to benefit or save Israel it was fitting that the gates of teshuvah should be closed before them.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Whats Yonah really about?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2013, 07:02:06 PM »
Yes indeed, this is because the lesson is learned from the midrash. Midrash is not historically correct and thus it cannot be used to learn facts. But Midrash can be used to learn principles. Thus the midrash is trying to teach us something about the nature of Teshuva.

The issue which I brought up concerning whether this midrash is true or not (whether an absolute Rasha like Paroah could ever have been forgiven) bothered me so much that I called my Rabbi about it. Unfortunately this was something he was unable to answer me.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/417,200/What-is-the-Midrash.html
I kinda could see how Hashem could forgive Pharoah, because he was the one that hardened his heart...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:04:34 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.