My Debate Against a Jewish Scholar.. Jewish Law, Justice and Crime

[muman613]

One of his faults was that he didn't kill the cattle, he didn't do soo because some of the people objected and wanted it for themselves, he listened to them and complained to the Prophet Samuel saying soo.

I thought he had made the incorrect calculation that he would offer the cattle as sacrifices to Hashem.

Here is a discussion of the reasons for Sauls failing:

http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=zachor-rena

Saul's failings

There are different sources enumerating Saul's errors and the reasons for his downfall.

His great humility was misplaced at times and caused him to falter in leadership. When Saul waged battle with the Philistines and Samuel commanded him to wait for him before offering the sacrifices they had prepared, Saul acquiesced to the impatience of his soldiers. He was then told that his kingdom would not last.

He was rebuked for being "small in your own eyes" and not assertive enough in his mission as "the head of the tribes of Israel".

King Saul also thought himself more righteous and compassionate than G-d himself and didn't complete the complete extermination of the nation of Amalek. This was his first historical mission as king of Israel and was meant to usher in the time of the Moshiach:

Instead he spared Agag their king and "the best of the sheep and the cattle, and the fatlings, and on the fattened sheep, and on all that was good; and they did not want to destroy them".

Not only that, but the next morning when Samuel came to rebuke him (after killing Agag himself), initially Saul tried to explain away his actions. Had he quickly realized his mistake and repaired the damage himself, he conceivably could have regained favor in G-d's eyes, for a penitent is even more favorable than a completely righteous person. After being rebuked, Saul did indeed express remorse, but it was too late.

The reaction was quick and harsh. G-d regretted having made him king and declared that his reign wouldn't last long. There are those that maintain that Saul reigned for only 2 years. Also, Samuel ceased to come to him, instead seeking out David, his successor. Regarding this error, the Talmud states, "Be not overly righteous like Saul, who thought to be more righteous [than G-d Himself] and had mercy on the wicked [Amalek]." (Yoma 22b)

All character traits have been created for a purpose and each has its proper function in the world. Both compassion as well as cruelty need be utilized for the service of G-d. It was grave disobedience for Saul to have thought his compassion superior to that of G-d Himself. Yet the decree against Saul wasn't finalized until his error involving the sin of accepting slander regarding the priests (kohanim) of the city of Nob, in which he mistakenly ordered the slaughter of all the priests in the city, of which only one survived.

The Baal Shem Tov teaches us that when one comes before the Heavenly Tribunal upon his death, he is shown someone else who seemingly has sinned and is asked to voice his opinion on the case (just as the prophet Natan asked David to pass judgment on "the poor man's lamb" - see Sam II 12). Only after he passes judgment is it demonstrated to him that his deeds were similar, and thus he decides his own verdict in the Afterlife.

Until this episode, Saul could have maintained that he acted against Amalek according to his overly merciful nature - an error, to be sure. But once he showed his own cruel side regarding the city of Nob, he is judged to have been rebellious against G-d on both occasions.

Anyone who sins and is ashamed, not making excuses for himself, all his sins are forgiven, as the verse states: "'…that you remember and be ashamed, and you will no longer have an excuse by reason of your humiliation, when I forgive you for all that you have done,' says the L-rd G-d." (Ezekiel 16:63). (Berachot 12b) Therefore, David the paramount repentant, merited to have a royal line of kings descend from him, whereas Saul's reign lasted a mere 2 years, notwithstanding his outstanding character traits.

[muman613]

Aish.com has this discussion of the kingship of Saul...

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48936347.html

LIKE ALL THE REST

Samuel is not happy over this request but God tells him to go ahead. Still it is clear that God is not happy with it either:

"Listen to the voice of the people according to all that they say to you for they have not rejected you but they have rejected Me from reigning over them." (1 Samuel 8:7)

Why are Samuel and God displeased, especially since Moses had predicted this turn of events and there is even a Torah commandment to do so?

The answer lies in the way the people asked for a king:

And they the people said [to Samuel] "... Now set up for us a king to judge us like all the nations ..." (1 Samuel, 8:6)

A Jewish king was not supposed to be a king "like all the nations" had. A Jewish king was supposed to be a model of what an ideal Jew is all about ― a model for the rest of the nation to emulate.

To ask for a king "like all the nations" suggests that the Jews wanted a big strong guy, like the rest of the nations-an all-powerful leader who would make all the decisions so that they could sit back and throw off that heavy burden of responsibility that they've had to deal with on a day-to-day basis. It's much easier in many respects to have someone decide for you, which is why the Talmud says that "a slave is happier being a slave" ― a slave who is well treated will give up his freedom to know that he is being taken care of and decisions are being made for him.

The Jewish monarchy, as described in the Bible, is a unique institution. A Jewish king has real power and tremendous responsibility, but he is not a tyrant or dictator. He is the model for the rest of the nation to emulate: a leader, a scholar, pious, righteous and God-fearing. He is a catalyst that enables the Jewish people to fulfill their national historic mission as a light to the nations.1

"Only he [the king] shall not have too many horses for himself...And he shall not have too many wives... and he shall not greatly increase silver and gold for himself...It shall be that when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself two copies of this Torah...It shall be with him, and he shall read from it all the days of his life, so that he will learn to fear the lord, his God, to keep all the words of the Torah...so that his heart does not become haughty over his brethren..." (Deut. 17: 16-20)

In the year 884 BCE, 393 years after the Jewish people first entered the Land of Israel, Saul is anointed as the first king by the prophet Samuel in accordance with the wishes of the people.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A king who rules as a dictator is not a king.

Hmmm.  Nope.   He's still a king.   Just one who rules as a dictator.   

You called him a king yourself.

[Every Jew AK47]

Just to update people, David made another response in the debate...  I thought I post it here..    I still haven't read all of Muman's comments and the very complex argument that has resulted, because it is a bit beyond me, as I lack the book knowledge.  I was hoping that people could more specifically address David's comments, although I am sure the ensuing debate between Muman and Tag Mahir  and others is a result of the fundamentals of what David was teaching to people.    I will try to spend time reading the comments and understanding the depth of this spiritual discussion.   As of now, I am still trying to find more knowledge to counter David's arguments which I know are inconceivable , dangerous and fallible, especially in our modern society.   

I understand Tag, that I should not worry about what David writes, but he is a very influential character and many people believe everything he says, as it is Law, itself.  Think, if one day, he gets into politics or influences politicians with his rhetoric the damaging affect this could have on Israel if he helps promote such laws into the already corrupt Israeli legal system.  Israeli law already gives too much leeway to criminals and overlooks suffering of victims, but if he and other Orthodox with such false ideas promotes these ideologies at the higher level, I fear that with the large number of naive supporters of such ideas, they could one day be adopted.

David:  Yonathan, there is a discussion in the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 7b) about the nature of true judges in a court of Jewish law and what they are supposed to be like, where we find the requirement that they be cautious and circumspect in judgment, rather than rash. They are also vested with the power to beat with a stick certain types of offenders (Heb. מכת מרדות). This might sound strange or cruel to most westerners, but really it isn't. Once they are warned in this way for their rebellious conduct, they lay it heart and are less prone to repeat the same mistake.

In America where some hard criminals are locked in small prison cells with no privacy even when using the toilet, some may prefer death to such harsh conditions and humiliation. In Jewish law, we are not permitted to humiliate even the prisoner.

I was thinking the other day why an armed robber is made to pay only the face value (principal) of his theft, but isn't incarcerated as a preventive measure and deterrent from his repeating the same crime. Perhaps it is because all of us have in us a "yetzer hara" (an evil inclination), but one isn't judged as a malefactor or criminal simply because of this inclination. A man can only be judged by his actions, rather than by his thoughts.
13 hours ago

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
 This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.

[Every Jew AK47]

  Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
 This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.

So a violent and dangerous armed robber who threatens a person's life should go free after paying twice the amount of what they stole or attempted to steal?  According to David, if the armed robber is caught in the act of the theft, the armed robber is to be let free without any payment or punishment. 

Sorry, but I don't want dangerous and violent armed robbers on the streets who will sooner or later murder an innocent life to fuel whatever habit or reason they have for threatening a human life to acquire some quick cash.      What if the robber you let free ends up shooting a child the next time he robs a store?   There have been many instances of innocent people being shot by armed robbers who have previously been arrested for violence or theft.

BTW, my father's friend was shot in the neck when he worked at a pharmacy a while back.  The robber was threatening his pregnant wife at gunpoint and him and he tried to take the gun away from the robber.   What should be the punishment for this man who shot my father's friend?  My father's friend lived and his wife was unharmed.   However, no guarantees about the next person this piece of human filth may harm..  Should this scumbag just be let go with a fine?  Let's say this robber was Jewish..  Most likely he was not, but I like to know even if he was?


As far as the argument that prisons make people harder criminals, I can also argue a lax legal system has contributed even more to making criminals more violent and opportunistic.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

EveryJew- 1) armed robbers in a Jewish oriented society are a rareity. 2) In such a case when an armed robber goes into someone's home the Halacha is that one can even kill him and not be held liable, because in such a case he could even kill you. (and their is a whole explanation also why etc. I'm just giving you very very little on it). 3) a non-Jew is killed for theft as he has only very few restrictions on him.

 4) the system isn't lax, like I said their is a government system as well and Hachamim could even make protective measures when necessary.
 5) Its better to rehab a person properly instead of making them much worse criminals. Look sat the U.S. jails. They are packed and growing. Giving more jail doesn't deter much. I'm not saying it should be changed just giving example.
 6) Underlying way to change it is to give a complete remedy instead of putting on bandages. Under a proper system and proper education jails wouldn't even be needed and those who did commit this crimes would and should be made to change instead of made to get a "time out" and then cause more societal damage. Most important thing is the well-being of the society as a whole.


 Lastly you should be mainly concerned about what you practically need to do to be a good Jew and not about these hypothetical scenarios and things that you would not have to deal with (you wont be a Judge will you). I would bet neither would David. Just deal with that you need to do and thats it. For example keep Shabbat and not say if and how a person who doesn't keep it would be executed or not etc. Just do it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

  Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
 This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.

Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks.  Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society.  Jail. Is good to protect society.  Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead.   White collar crime is the exception to the rule,  and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)?  They are lucky jail is all they get. 

Nothing is wrong with jail.  One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.

And again it's up to the gentiles how they want to punish thieves.  We have no say in their laws as determined by their scholars.

[muman613]

Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks.  Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society.  Jail. Is good to protect society.  Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead.   White collar crime is the exception to the rule,  and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)?  They are lucky jail is all they get. 

Nothing is wrong with jail.  One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.

I don't really understand what you are getting at. Should all thieves be punished the same because some of them are violent? I believe people should be held accountable for what they do, not for what others who do the same thing do. I believe that the Jewish system of justice is the ultimate form of justice and the current system is a pale imitation.

I believe more people are ruined by the prison system than are helped. But since there is not much else we can do, we will lose a lot of people to this system.

PS: According to Jewish law a Jew who cannot repay twice the value he stole can be sold into slavery.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks.  Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society.  Jail. Is good to protect society.  Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead.   White collar crime is the exception to the rule,  and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)?  They are lucky jail is all they get. 

Nothing is wrong with jail.  One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.

And again it's up to the gentiles how they want to punish thieves.  We have no say in their laws as determined by their scholars.

 I dont get what I said was wrong? I did say that someone who breaks into another's house can even be killed if need be.
 Also a goy is subject to be Hayav Mitah for theft.

 To your Q- if they (Jewish thief) cant pay back they are sold into "slavery" or "servitude" call it whatever, but for some time that is done. And on top of that I mentioned their is a body of courts outside the Rabbinic and even within the Rabbinic their are sometimes things made for the well being of society (and thus harsher measures if and when need be).
 

 FYI my house was almost robbed today by 2 (possibly 3) n^ggers.

[muman613]

Tag,

I hope you are safe... Sounds terrible. I had my own run-in with some neighborhood youth a couple of weeks ago...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't really understand what you are getting at. Should all thieves be punished the same because some of them are violent? I believe people should be held accountable for what they do, not for what others who do the same thing do. I believe that the Jewish system of justice is the ultimate form of justice and the current system is a pale imitation.

I believe more people are ruined by the prison system than are helped. But since there is not much else we can do, we will lose a lot of people to this system.

PS: According to Jewish law a Jew who cannot repay twice the value he stole can be sold into slavery.

What am I getting at?  I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post.  I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment.  It isn't.   
 Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority.  It is good they go to jail.

The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place.  Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented.  And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity).  Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"?  He would sooner murder the master than do that.  Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.

Please let's use sechel.  The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.

[muman613]

What am I getting at?  I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post.  I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment.  It isn't.   
 Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority.  It is good they go to jail.

The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place.  Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented.  And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity).  Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"?  He would sooner murder the master than do that.  Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.

Please let's use sechel.  The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.

'
Can you provide a source for your claim that most theives are violent. My experience is exactly the opposite. Most people engage in shoplifting and small theft are not violent people. Even embezelers are usually non-violent.


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement

The proper word for violent 'theft' is 'Robbery' according to the FBI site...

Violent Crime
Violent crime is composed of four offenses:  murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.

The Violent Crime section of this report provides more information about violent crime and an overview of violent crime data for 2012.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/robbery/robberymain

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines robbery as the taking or attempting to take anything of value from the care, custody, or control of a person or persons by force or threat of force or violence and/or by putting the victim in fear.

Overview     

There were an estimated 354,520 robberies nationwide in 2012. The 2012 estimated number of robberies decreased 0.1 percent from the 2011 estimate and 20.1 percent from the 2008 estimate.

The estimated robbery rate of 112.9 per 100,000 inhabitants in 2012 showed a decrease of 0.8 percent when compared to the 2011 rate. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

In 2012, robberies accounted for an estimated $414 million in losses. (Based on Tables 1 and 23.)

The average dollar value of property stolen per reported robbery was $1,167. Banks experienced the highest average dollar loss at $3,810 per offense. (See Table 23.)

Among the robberies for which the UCR Program received weapon information in 2012, strong-arm tactics were used in 42.5 percent, firearms in 41.0 percent, and knives or cutting instruments in 7.8 percent. Other dangerous weapons were used in 8.8 percent of robberies in 2012. (Based on Table 19.)

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/property-crime/larceny-theft/larcenytheftmain

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines larceny-theft as the unlawful taking, carrying, leading, or riding away of property from the possession or constructive possession of another. Examples are thefts of bicycles, motor vehicle parts and accessories, shoplifting, pocket-picking, or the stealing of any property or article that is not taken by force and violence or by fraud. Attempted larcenies are included. Embezzlement, confidence games, forgery, check fraud, etc., are excluded.

Overview

In 2012, there were an estimated 6,150,598 larceny-thefts nationwide. The number of larceny-thefts remained virtually the same when compared with the 2011 estimate, but dropped 6.6 percent when compared with the 2008 estimate, and declined 12.5 percent when compared with the 2003 estimate.

The rate of estimated larceny-thefts in 2012 was 1,959.3 per 100,000 inhabitants. From 2011 to 2012, the rate of estimated larceny-thefts declined 0.7 percent, and from 2003 to 2012, the rate decreased 18.9 percent. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

Larceny-thefts accounted for an estimated 68.5 percent of property crimes in 2012. (Based on Table 1.)

The average value of property taken during larceny-thefts was $987 per offense. When the average value is applied to the estimated number of larceny-thefts, the loss to victims nationally was more than $6 billion. (Based on Tables 1 and 23.)

Twenty-four percent of larceny-thefts were thefts from motor vehicles. (See Table 23.)

[Every Jew AK47]

Sorry, that I have gotten a bit lost in this debate.. Maybe, I can now direct my question to Muman..  Muman, I am not sure in the heat of the debating of the forum that you read my post in this thread about my father's friend, if not I would ask you scan the thread for my post.

After reading it, if you haven't already, I would like to ask you, your opinion on the issue.

First, according to halacha, what should be the punishment for the man that shot my father's friend in the neck?  As I wrote in my post he was threatening his pregnant wife with a gun and then attempted to wrestle the gun out of his hand, which resulted in him getting shot.

Second, assuming the man shot was your brother or your sister's husband (same situation), what then would you think should be done to the perpetrator, based on the feelings of your heart, leaving all legality aside for a moment?  As the police would say in legal matters, the second response would be "off the record", leaving all halachic interpretation aside.    I'd just love to hear you put aside this deep theological debate for a moment and answer this question based on your own personal feelings, being a Kahanist minded Jew, as well as a human being.

I do appreciate your insight Muman and I definitely know that both you, Tag and Kahane was Right are all very devout Jews, knowledgeable in halacha and noble people from reading your previous posts and seeing you on the forum for years.

Thank you my friend.

[muman613]

Sorry, that I have gotten a bit lost in this debate.. Maybe, I can now direct my question to Muman..  Muman, I am not sure in the heat of the debating of the forum that you read my post in this thread about my father's friend, if not I would ask you scan the thread for my post.

After reading it, if you haven't already, I would like to ask you, your opinion on the issue.

First, according to halacha, what should be the punishment for the man that shot my father's friend in the neck?  As I wrote in my post he was threatening his pregnant wife with a gun and then attempted to wrestle the gun out of his hand, which resulted in him getting shot.

Second, assuming the man shot was your brother or your sister's husband (same situation), what then would you think should be done to the perpetrator, based on the feelings of your heart, leaving all legality aside for a moment?  As the police would say in legal matters, the second response would be "off the record", leaving all halachic interpretation aside.    I'd just love to hear you put aside this deep theological debate for a moment and answer this question based on your own personal feelings, being a Kahanist minded Jew, as well as a human being.

I do appreciate your insight Muman and I definitely know that both you, Tag and Kahane was Right are all very devout Jews, knowledgeable in halacha and noble people from reading your previous posts and seeing you on the forum for years.

Thank you my friend.

Shalom EJa44,

I appreciate the kind words you have written regarding your opinion of me. I only hope to be able to live up to you expectations. But I will try to help as much as I can.

I believe I understand where you are coming from. Let me just say that my emotional reaction is that the perpetrator needs to do some hard time. As you know my brother died violently at the hands of the 9/11 terrorists on that day. I demand justice for all those involved in the plot, those who supported it with money or encouragement. It is difficult to live through violent crime, as it appears your family has through your fathers friend.

Halachically I believe that murder, and attempted murder, justify the death penalty. The Torah many times says that if one sheds another mans blood, his own blood will be spilled. In the case of murder there is no reprieve from the penalty, it is death. We should have no pity on the wicked, and their souls are purified by the execution.

Today we live in a world which is very much flawed compared to the vision of our Torah. Justice has been perverted, and sometimes the guilty walk free (witness OJ Simpson) and the innocent rot in prison (witness Jonathan Pollard). For the most part I believe that every criminal executed by America has been guilty, but there are some lingering suspicions that this may not be so. It is dastardly to have a criminal sit for 20 years on death row, only to be let free before his execution (it is shocking to families of the victims). Do I have a solution? Not exactly.... But I do pray for the restoration of the Sanhedrin which is supposed to be the best and brightest of the Jewish nation (Mordechai was a member of the Sanhedrin also).

I hope I provided some insight into my opinion on this topic. I am one who demands justice when the offense is large, but I also ask for mercy as when I have been in court.

"Whoso sheds man's blood by a man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of the Lord made he man." (Genesis 9, 6).

[Every Jew AK47]

I appreciate your response Muman..  I do remember now about you saying about your brother dying in 9/11..  So, indeed, you do know, firsthand, how it feels to lose some very dear to you through violence.    I can respect your opinion even more, as I know you, like me, want justice to be served and may it be done swiftly!

As for me, I have experienced violence and victimization not only through my father's friend, but I, myself , was a victim of an almost deadly assault where I was horribly beaten almost to death.  I was left bloody and bruised and thought for sure the crazy perpetrator was going to beat me to death.  It was only a miracle of Hashem that I am alive to talk about it.    I will say, no amount of money paid to me would ever compensate for the pain, suffering and terror I endured 16 years ago.  For me it is common sense, but I understand with complications of implementing Judaic Law in Galut that we face struggles when it comes to bringing a criminal to justice, especially if it one of our own Jewish brothers/sisters. 

As far as you meeting my expectations, don't worry, you have already exceeded them.  I find yours, Tag-Mehir and the posts of other member's here, especially discussing religious matters and Jewish Law, very educational and insightful.   

Of course, some issues , like this one, do strike a nerve in me and have caused me confusion and challenge my ideals.  As Tag Mehir says, for now, it is best not to dwell on them.    I guess in the end, I want justice to be served.  What I don't want is criminals and those who hurt, rape, rob and murder the innocent to go unpunished. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What am I getting at?  I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post.  I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment.  It isn't.   
 Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority.  It is good they go to jail.

The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place.  Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented.  And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity).  Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"?  He would sooner murder the master than do that.  Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.

Please let's use sechel.  The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.

 You didn't understand me. Go back and read my posts. I said that in that society at least (in a fully Jewish society) with etc. etc. it could be better as a whole not to imprison people not because its cruel but because it could cause more problems for society as a whole. Again im not saying this should be done just like that especially in every society, etc. You missed the point.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Of course, some issues , like this one, do strike a nerve in me and have caused me confusion and challenge my ideals.  As Tag Mehir says, for now, it is best not to dwell on them.    I guess in the end, I want justice to be served.  What I don't want is criminals and those who hurt, rape, rob and murder the innocent to go unpunished.

 No one goes unpunished if not in this world certainly the next. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

EveryJew I found exact sources oer Shabbat in a book I have of Rambam's laws (Fundamentals of the Rambam on exact things you asked here) perhaps I will find and quote to you online now.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Halacha 1
Whenever a person kills a colleague with his hands - e.g., he strikes him with a sword or with a stone that can cause death, strangles him until he dies or burns him in fire - he should be executed by the court, for he himself has killed him.

Halacha 2
But a person who hires a murderer to kill a colleague, one who sends his servants and they kill him, one who binds a colleague and leaves him before a lion or the like and the beast kills him, and a person who commits suicide are all considered to be shedders of blood; the sin of bloodshed is upon their hands, and they are liable for death at the hands of God. They are not, however, liable for execution by the court.

Halacha 3
Which source indicates that this is the law? Genesis 9:6 states: "When a person sheds the blood of a man, by a man his blood shall be shed." This refers to a person who kills a colleague by himself, without employing an agent.

The verse continues: "Of the blood of your own lives I will demand an account." This refers to a person who commits suicide.6

"From the hand of every wild beast will I demand an account" Ibid. 9:5 This refers to a person who places a person before a wild beast so that he will devour him.

"From the hand of a man, from the hand of one's brother, will I demand an account for the soul of a man" ibid.. This refers to a person who hires others to kill a colleague. In all of the three last instances, the verse uses the expression "will I demand an account," indicating that their judgment is in heaven's hands.

Halacha 4
When a Jewish king desires to slay any of these murderers and the like - who are not liable for execution by the court - by virtue of his regal authority, in order to perfect society, he has the license.

Similarly, if the court desires to execute them as a result of a immediate fiat, because this was required at the time, they have the license to do as they see fit.

Halacha 5
If the king did not execute them, nor did the court deem the time as such to require strengthening the strictures against murder, it should nevertheless have the murderer beaten with severe blows - so that he is on the verge of death - and imprisoned, deprived and afflicted with all types of discomfort in order to strike fear and awe into the hearts of other wicked men, so that this death should not be a stumbling block and a snag for them, causing them to say: "Let me arrange to have my enemies killed the way so-and-so did, and I will not suffer the consequences."


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088918/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm